- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] PluggableTextMorph changed behavior

by phil＠highoctane.be

done. UID: philippeback 2012/4/1 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > get an account on gforge.inria.fr and let us know your login we will add > you to the svn and you will have access. > > Stef > > > > Stef, > > > > Yes, what's lacking is the doc. The system in itself is pretty great, > once you invest a ton of hours in lighting the dark corners > (PluggableTextMorph, OMG, an MVC-Morphic beast ...) > > > > How can I contribute to the book? I don't have a clue on how to login. > > > > Also, I went through most of your material (Bots, Caro la tortue, other > PDFs, well, in fact I siphoned all of the content and read like a mad man > ;-) ). > > > > There are a lot of treasures in there, especially the turtle geometry (I > see that we have the same old book from 86 or so). > > > > Statistics coupled with turtle geometry could do a lot of interesting > thingsâ¦ > > :) > > Stef > > > > > Philippe > > > > 2012/4/1 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > > > > On Apr 1, 2012, at 4:46 PM, Hilaire Fernandes wrote: > > > > > Le 01/04/2012 15:22, StÃ©phane Ducasse a Ã©crit : > > >> Well the problem is that Morph is so complex and the API totally > obscure. > > > > > > > > > I know I know, all this morphic stuff really really looks cryptic and > > > dusty, refactoring was due for many years but did not take place until > > > pharo. So it results in this big mess, but yet we can get something > > > useable in Pharo. > > > > yes (this is not such a mess, it is just lacking proper documentation). > > > > > Some time I would love to document somewhere my finding to achieve a > > > given result. > > > > if you send some examples we will add them (or you could add them > directly to the basicWidgets chapter). > > > > > A kind of web service where each of us could document, > > > then this document could turn in comment in each class... kind of magic > > > stuff. May be the documentation class effort is the place to > contribute, > > > but my workflow does not really match it. > > > > We started with benjamin to work on a basic widget chapter. I would love > to document > > the basic api of each of the basic widgets. The problem is that I have > to learn it first. > > So may be joining the effort on that chapter would be already a big plus. > > > > Stef > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Philippe Back > > "Helping you hit the top 3 outcomes you really want to achieve" > > > > Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail: > phil(a)highoctane.be | Web: http://philippeback.eu | Blog: > > http://philippeback.be > > > > High Octane SPRL > > rue cour Boisacq 101 > > 1301 Bierges > > > > > -- Philippe Back "Helping you hit the top 3 outcomes you really want to achieve" Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail: phil(a)highoctane.be| Web: http://philippeback.eu | Blog: http://philippeback.be High Octane SPRL rue cour Boisacq 101 1301 Bierges

April 2, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] PluggableTextMorph changed behavior

by Marcus Denker

> > PS: note that we are not waiting for Spoon. We are building our system and slowly but steadily > arriving there. We are working step by step on making the system more modular and easier to change. > We hope to have a bootstrap soon. That said, I of course like Spoon... lots of good ideas and it *is* interesting. And in additon, there was lots of progress recently! I just have a bit of an aversion from 10 years of Squeak to a one line answer like we saw... "X will solve this", when X is something somehow in the future that requires effort not just to get a community to really absorb and integrate, but especially really replace the existing infrastructure in practice. And especially I am sceptical when it's a one person project (regardless how great that person is or how I respect him/her). There where a lot of different X over the years... This was especially apparent in Squeak at the point when the reality against these grandiose "X will solve everything" was that it was in practice impossible for the community to even change a typo in a comment... This does say nothing about the Xses... they where great. The people driving the Xses: very good, some geniuses even. That's why everyone was so excited. But what came out: nothing. In the end the story of Squeak is amazing in how little was accomplished considering the amount of talent, founding, time and energy. And I don't completely understand why even today. Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

April 2, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] PluggableTextMorph changed behavior

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

get an account on gforge.inria.fr and let us know your login we will add you to the svn and you will have access. Stef > Stef, > > Yes, what's lacking is the doc. The system in itself is pretty great, once you invest a ton of hours in lighting the dark corners (PluggableTextMorph, OMG, an MVC-Morphic beast ...) > > How can I contribute to the book? I don't have a clue on how to login. > > Also, I went through most of your material (Bots, Caro la tortue, other PDFs, well, in fact I siphoned all of the content and read like a mad man ;-) ). > > There are a lot of treasures in there, especially the turtle geometry (I see that we have the same old book from 86 or so). > > Statistics coupled with turtle geometry could do a lot of interesting thingsâ¦ :) Stef > > Philippe > > 2012/4/1 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > > On Apr 1, 2012, at 4:46 PM, Hilaire Fernandes wrote: > > > Le 01/04/2012 15:22, StÃ©phane Ducasse a Ã©crit : > >> Well the problem is that Morph is so complex and the API totally obscure. > > > > > > I know I know, all this morphic stuff really really looks cryptic and > > dusty, refactoring was due for many years but did not take place until > > pharo. So it results in this big mess, but yet we can get something > > useable in Pharo. > > yes (this is not such a mess, it is just lacking proper documentation). > > > Some time I would love to document somewhere my finding to achieve a > > given result. > > if you send some examples we will add them (or you could add them directly to the basicWidgets chapter). > > > A kind of web service where each of us could document, > > then this document could turn in comment in each class... kind of magic > > stuff. May be the documentation class effort is the place to contribute, > > but my workflow does not really match it. > > We started with benjamin to work on a basic widget chapter. I would love to document > the basic api of each of the basic widgets. The problem is that I have to learn it first. > So may be joining the effort on that chapter would be already a big plus. > > Stef > > > > > > -- > Philippe Back > "Helping you hit the top 3 outcomes you really want to achieve" > > Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail: phil(a)highoctane.be | Web: http://philippeback.eu | Blog: > http://philippeback.be > > High Octane SPRL > rue cour Boisacq 101 > 1301 Bierges >

April 2, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] PluggableTextMorph changed behavior

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

I build a break out and I have 7 chapters explaining it but this is a game and not really about morphic. Stef > I am exploring Pharo's Morphic (I am doing a text-based game with it). > > I've been 'doxpermimenting' stuff and it lives in: > > MCHttpRepository > > location: 'http://ss3.gemstone.com/ss/HO-Experiments' > user: '' > password: ' > > It is more looking like a ball of mud but it all is in the HighOctane--* packages. > It loads in the latest 1.3. > > There is also a Metacello config: > > ConfigurationOfHighOctane in the same place. > > I am learning. For the record I am a pretty good user of Swing in Java, so I can relate things. But Morphic is indeed a great thing. The fact that standard things aren't documented makes it harder than it needs to. > > But this is the most flexible beast I know of. I do some Tcl/Tk for helping me with scripts. But this is another thing completely. > > Philippe > > > > > 2012/4/1 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> > That's the problem - it's been "any day now" for a LONG time. As much as I don't enjoy pointing it out, don't wait for spoon. > > > > > ________________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Marcus Denker [marcus.denker(a)inria.fr] > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 9:33 AM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] PluggableTextMorph changed behavior > > On Apr 1, 2012, at 3:29 PM, Mark Smith wrote: > > > > > On 1 Apr 2012, at 14:22, Lawson English wrote: > > > >> On 4/1/12 5:40 AM, Hilaire Fernandes wrote: > >> [...] > >>> We should have a way to track and document the changes we make in the image. > >> > >> Spoon will have a very fine-grained solution for this issue. > >> > Spoon will solve all of Squeak's problem since 10 years ;-) > > Marcus > > > -- > Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de > > > > > > > -- > Philippe Back > "Helping you hit the top 3 outcomes you really want to achieve" > > Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail: phil(a)highoctane.be | Web: http://philippeback.eu | Blog: > http://philippeback.be > > High Octane SPRL > rue cour Boisacq 101 > 1301 Bierges >

April 2, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] PluggableTextMorph changed behavior

by phil＠highoctane.be

Stef, Yes, what's lacking is the doc. The system in itself is pretty great, once you invest a ton of hours in lighting the dark corners (PluggableTextMorph, OMG, an MVC-Morphic beast ...) How can I contribute to the book? I don't have a clue on how to login. Also, I went through most of your material (Bots, Caro la tortue, other PDFs, well, in fact I siphoned all of the content and read like a mad man ;-) ). There are a lot of treasures in there, especially the turtle geometry (I see that we have the same old book from 86 or so). Statistics coupled with turtle geometry could do a lot of interesting things... Philippe 2012/4/1 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > > On Apr 1, 2012, at 4:46 PM, Hilaire Fernandes wrote: > > > Le 01/04/2012 15:22, StÃ©phane Ducasse a Ã©crit : > >> Well the problem is that Morph is so complex and the API totally > obscure. > > > > > > I know I know, all this morphic stuff really really looks cryptic and > > dusty, refactoring was due for many years but did not take place until > > pharo. So it results in this big mess, but yet we can get something > > useable in Pharo. > > yes (this is not such a mess, it is just lacking proper documentation). > > > Some time I would love to document somewhere my finding to achieve a > > given result. > > if you send some examples we will add them (or you could add them directly > to the basicWidgets chapter). > > > A kind of web service where each of us could document, > > then this document could turn in comment in each class... kind of magic > > stuff. May be the documentation class effort is the place to contribute, > > but my workflow does not really match it. > > We started with benjamin to work on a basic widget chapter. I would love > to document > the basic api of each of the basic widgets. The problem is that I have to > learn it first. > So may be joining the effort on that chapter would be already a big plus. > > Stef > > > -- Philippe Back "Helping you hit the top 3 outcomes you really want to achieve" Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail: phil(a)highoctane.be| Web: http://philippeback.eu | Blog: http://philippeback.be High Octane SPRL rue cour Boisacq 101 1301 Bierges

April 2, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] PluggableTextMorph changed behavior

by phil＠highoctane.be

I am exploring Pharo's Morphic (I am doing a text-based game with it). I've been 'doxpermimenting' stuff and it lives in: MCHttpRepository location: 'http://ss3.gemstone.com/ss/HO-Experiments' user: '' password: ' It is more looking like a ball of mud but it all is in the HighOctane--* packages. It loads in the latest 1.3. There is also a Metacello config: ConfigurationOfHighOctane in the same place. I am learning. For the record I am a pretty good user of Swing in Java, so I can relate things. But Morphic is indeed a great thing. The fact that standard things aren't documented makes it harder than it needs to. But this is the most flexible beast I know of. I do some Tcl/Tk for helping me with scripts. But this is another thing completely. Philippe 2012/4/1 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> > That's the problem - it's been "any day now" for a LONG time. As much as > I don't enjoy pointing it out, don't wait for spoon. > > > > > ________________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [ > pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Marcus Denker [ > marcus.denker(a)inria.fr] > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 9:33 AM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] PluggableTextMorph changed behavior > > On Apr 1, 2012, at 3:29 PM, Mark Smith wrote: > > > > > On 1 Apr 2012, at 14:22, Lawson English wrote: > > > >> On 4/1/12 5:40 AM, Hilaire Fernandes wrote: > >> [...] > >>> We should have a way to track and document the changes we make in the > image. > >> > >> Spoon will have a very fine-grained solution for this issue. > >> > Spoon will solve all of Squeak's problem since 10 years ;-) > > Marcus > > > -- > Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de > > > > -- Philippe Back "Helping you hit the top 3 outcomes you really want to achieve" Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail: phil(a)highoctane.be| Web: http://philippeback.eu | Blog: http://philippeback.be High Octane SPRL rue cour Boisacq 101 1301 Bierges

April 2, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] PluggableTextMorph changed behavior

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

A bit of french culture for marcus :) L'arlesienne: the one that we endlessly wait for. http://www.expressio.fr/expressions/l-arlesienne.php coming from a novel of Alfonse Daudet. Stef PS: note that we are not waiting for Spoon. We are building our system and slowly but steadily arriving there. We are working step by step on making the system more modular and easier to change. We hope to have a bootstrap soon.

April 2, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] PluggableTextMorph changed behavior

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Apr 1, 2012, at 4:46 PM, Hilaire Fernandes wrote: > Le 01/04/2012 15:22, StÃ©phane Ducasse a Ã©crit : >> Well the problem is that Morph is so complex and the API totally obscure. > > > I know I know, all this morphic stuff really really looks cryptic and > dusty, refactoring was due for many years but did not take place until > pharo. So it results in this big mess, but yet we can get something > useable in Pharo. yes (this is not such a mess, it is just lacking proper documentation). > Some time I would love to document somewhere my finding to achieve a > given result. if you send some examples we will add them (or you could add them directly to the basicWidgets chapter). > A kind of web service where each of us could document, > then this document could turn in comment in each class... kind of magic > stuff. May be the documentation class effort is the place to contribute, > but my workflow does not really match it. We started with benjamin to work on a basic widget chapter. I would love to document the basic api of each of the basic widgets. The problem is that I have to learn it first. So may be joining the effort on that chapter would be already a big plus. Stef

April 2, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] PluggableTextMorph changed behavior

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

That's the problem - it's been "any day now" for a LONG time. As much as I don't enjoy pointing it out, don't wait for spoon. ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Marcus Denker [marcus.denker(a)inria.fr] Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 9:33 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] PluggableTextMorph changed behavior On Apr 1, 2012, at 3:29 PM, Mark Smith wrote: > > On 1 Apr 2012, at 14:22, Lawson English wrote: > >> On 4/1/12 5:40 AM, Hilaire Fernandes wrote: >> [...] >>> We should have a way to track and document the changes we make in the image. >> >> Spoon will have a very fine-grained solution for this issue. >> Spoon will solve all of Squeak's problem since 10 years ;-) Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

April 2, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] PluggableTextMorph changed behavior

by Hilaire Fernandes

Le 01/04/2012 15:22, StÃ©phane Ducasse a Ã©crit : > Well the problem is that Morph is so complex and the API totally obscure. I know I know, all this morphic stuff really really looks cryptic and dusty, refactoring was due for many years but did not take place until pharo. So it results in this big mess, but yet we can get something useable in Pharo. Some time I would love to document somewhere my finding to achieve a given result. A kind of web service where each of us could document, then this document could turn in comment in each class... kind of magic stuff. May be the documentation class effort is the place to contribute, but my workflow does not really match it. Hilaire -- Dr. Geo -- http://www.drgeo.eu

April 2, 2012