- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] vm over android

by phil＠highoctane.be

A good place to run Pharo for IoT would be on an ARM-based Synology box. That would be a killer niche. Phil On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 6:35 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Clement, > > 2014-06-19 12:52 GMT-03:00 ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com>: > > 2014-06-18 15:39 GMT+02:00 Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com>: > > >> Can you share what is the intended use of the android vm that you're > >> building? > > > - Deploying application on Android > > - Proving to big customers Pharo can run on ARM processor on the > contrary to > > several other smalltalks > > What kind of applications? Is there an business interest of running on > ARM processors? Is there a sale advantage of having this? I don't want > to sound too inquisitive nor pedantic, those are real questions. > > As stated in previous mails, running on the platform is a technical > challenge per se (I couldn't make it if I wanted), but it's just a > very small part of "deploying to Android". And I'm not talking about > app stores. > > Even though Android (AOSP) is Linux based, the memory/battery > constraints makes that apps or services lifecycle completely > different to regular unix processes. And I don't see how this fits > into the whole android environment. Last time I tried (+1yr) it the VM > was a permanent process, without access to device sensors, etc.[*] > > I have a genuine interest in this topic, because my company depends > both on Pharo and Android (native) software. > > But how I see this, the advantage of Pharo running on Android for > devices other than phones/tablets, more kind of "internet of things" > devices. The advantage is also that the image is an asset of the vm, > so you can update your app without having to reinstall it through the > platform app management. > > Please don't let this stop you guys from doing this VM even for the > fun/sake of doing it. > But as you are making this public, I feel allowed to ask questions and > add comments. You can simply ignore them. :) > > Regards, > > Esteban A. Maringolo > > [*] Several years ago I took a private course of "mobile squeak", and > even compiled a modified squeak VM for WinCE, running MVC based UIs. > Back then Squeak UI was way better than WinCE's, even for "business > apps". Now I think mobile expectations changed. > >

June 19, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Where is the postcard with syntax?

by phil＠highoctane.be

As I started Smalltalk with Pharo 1.3, I may resonate with Dennis point of view. Simple in syntax but not easy indeed. There are ways to do things and smart ways that require a while to sink in. Basically, it turned my mind upside down and I realised that a lot of things are easier to do in Smalltalk once you do it the Smalltalk way. And I really love the minimalism of the syntax and the environment. Heck, I chose to go with Pharo for my paying customers and it works fine. This explaining that, I'd better have a working solution if I want to eat. This helps with the learning. Not sure I would have persisted if it was not the case though. Phil On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 7:01 PM, Nicolas Cellier < nicolas.cellier.aka.nice(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > 2014-06-19 16:44 GMT+02:00 Dennis Schetinin <chaetal(a)gmail.com>: > >> Simple ~= Easy. >> Smalltalk is simple (simpler then most of other PLs), but it's not easy >> (to understand and master, especially after other PLs). >> >> >> Intersting... > I'm certainly too biased after all these years of Smalltalk, but I would > have thought the exact contrary... > What exactly isn't easy in Smalltalk versus other PL? > Is understanding and mastering C++, lisp, haskell, whatever, simpler than > Smalltalk? > Or do you only mean that difference between any two other languages is > less than difference to Smalltalk? > > >> -- >> >> Best regards, >> >> >> Dennis Schetinin >> >> >> 2014-06-17 11:59 GMT+04:00 kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: >> >>> personally I don't like this postcard , it looks too much like "snake >>> oil marketing" to me. >>> >>> It creates the illusion that Pharo is much simpler than other >>> programming languages as a programming language while nothing can be >>> further from the truth. The idea here is to prove to the viewer that Pharo >>> is based on a very simple recipe and that is of course true. But if we have >>> to be honest is should come with a disclaimer for the potential users that >>> Pharo is no blue pill and there tons of things outside this postcard you >>> need to learn if you want to create the simplest Pharo application. I will >>> be frank , as a language I dont find Pharo any simpler than let's say >>> python , which I am more familiar with. And the fact that there is this >>> simple recipe gave me zero benefits to me so far. Its a cool trick that may >>> come handy down the line if I want to shape the language more to my needs, >>> but I dont see doing this to a day by day basis. >>> >>> Now a "living coding postcard" stating the workflow of Pharo and >>> demonstrating the power of the debugger is much more honest and frankly >>> better marketing for Pharo. You show something to a person that will >>> benefit his workflow on a day by day basis. >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Now, who is creative enough to add âdynamic arrayâ (one with curly >>>> braces) and temporaries in a block to the original thing: >>>> >>>> exampleWithNumber: x >>>> | y | >>>> true & false not & (nil isNil) ifFalse: [self halt]. >>>> y := self size + super size. >>>> #($a #a "a" 1 1.0) >>>> do: [ :each | >>>> Transcript show: (each class name); >>>> show: ' ']. >>>> ^x < y >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Uko >>>> >>>> On 16 Jun 2014, at 15:35, Oscar Nierstrasz <oscar.nierstrasz(a)gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> I got it from Stef, who always said it came originally from Ralph >>>> Johnson. >>>> >>>> http://c2.com/cgi-bin/wiki?SmalltalkSyntaxInaPostcard >>>> >>>> Googling around finds various copies of this, but no original source. >>>> >>>> Oscar >>>> >>>> On 16 Jun 2014, at 10:58 , Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> I guess itâs here: http://files.pharo.org/media/flyer-cheat-sheet.pdf >>>> >>>> I think that it would be interesting to put the syntax on a postcard. >>>> It can work as a proof of concept, some addition cheat-sheet for newcomers >>>> and also as some king of souvenir. >>>> >>>> Uko >>>> >>>> On 16 Jun 2014, at 10:36, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: >>>> >>>> you have the flyer of Damien (no idea where it is) but no real postcard. >>>> >>>> Stef >>>> >>>> On 16/6/14 09:35, Yuriy Tymchuk wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi guys, >>>> >>>> we all are talking about the syntax fitting in a postcard, but was >>>> there any real postcard with Pharo syntax prototype? This would be really >>>> interesting. >>>> >>>> Uko >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >

June 19, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Where is the postcard with syntax?

by Nicolas Cellier

2014-06-19 16:44 GMT+02:00 Dennis Schetinin <chaetal(a)gmail.com>: > Simple ~= Easy. > Smalltalk is simple (simpler then most of other PLs), but it's not easy > (to understand and master, especially after other PLs). > > > Intersting... I'm certainly too biased after all these years of Smalltalk, but I would have thought the exact contrary... What exactly isn't easy in Smalltalk versus other PL? Is understanding and mastering C++, lisp, haskell, whatever, simpler than Smalltalk? Or do you only mean that difference between any two other languages is less than difference to Smalltalk? > -- > > Best regards, > > > Dennis Schetinin > > > 2014-06-17 11:59 GMT+04:00 kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > >> personally I don't like this postcard , it looks too much like "snake oil >> marketing" to me. >> >> It creates the illusion that Pharo is much simpler than other programming >> languages as a programming language while nothing can be further from the >> truth. The idea here is to prove to the viewer that Pharo is based on a >> very simple recipe and that is of course true. But if we have to be honest >> is should come with a disclaimer for the potential users that Pharo is no >> blue pill and there tons of things outside this postcard you need to learn >> if you want to create the simplest Pharo application. I will be frank , as >> a language I dont find Pharo any simpler than let's say python , which I am >> more familiar with. And the fact that there is this simple recipe gave me >> zero benefits to me so far. Its a cool trick that may come handy down the >> line if I want to shape the language more to my needs, but I dont see doing >> this to a day by day basis. >> >> Now a "living coding postcard" stating the workflow of Pharo and >> demonstrating the power of the debugger is much more honest and frankly >> better marketing for Pharo. You show something to a person that will >> benefit his workflow on a day by day basis. >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Now, who is creative enough to add âdynamic arrayâ (one with curly >>> braces) and temporaries in a block to the original thing: >>> >>> exampleWithNumber: x >>> | y | >>> true & false not & (nil isNil) ifFalse: [self halt]. >>> y := self size + super size. >>> #($a #a "a" 1 1.0) >>> do: [ :each | >>> Transcript show: (each class name); >>> show: ' ']. >>> ^x < y >>> >>> >>> >>> Uko >>> >>> On 16 Jun 2014, at 15:35, Oscar Nierstrasz <oscar.nierstrasz(a)gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> I got it from Stef, who always said it came originally from Ralph >>> Johnson. >>> >>> http://c2.com/cgi-bin/wiki?SmalltalkSyntaxInaPostcard >>> >>> Googling around finds various copies of this, but no original source. >>> >>> Oscar >>> >>> On 16 Jun 2014, at 10:58 , Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com> wrote: >>> >>> I guess itâs here: http://files.pharo.org/media/flyer-cheat-sheet.pdf >>> >>> I think that it would be interesting to put the syntax on a postcard. It >>> can work as a proof of concept, some addition cheat-sheet for newcomers and >>> also as some king of souvenir. >>> >>> Uko >>> >>> On 16 Jun 2014, at 10:36, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: >>> >>> you have the flyer of Damien (no idea where it is) but no real postcard. >>> >>> Stef >>> >>> On 16/6/14 09:35, Yuriy Tymchuk wrote: >>> >>> Hi guys, >>> >>> we all are talking about the syntax fitting in a postcard, but was there >>> any real postcard with Pharo syntax prototype? This would be really >>> interesting. >>> >>> Uko >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >

June 19, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] vm over android

by Esteban A. Maringolo

Hi Clement, 2014-06-19 12:52 GMT-03:00 ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com>: > 2014-06-18 15:39 GMT+02:00 Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com>: >> Can you share what is the intended use of the android vm that you're >> building? > - Deploying application on Android > - Proving to big customers Pharo can run on ARM processor on the contrary to > several other smalltalks What kind of applications? Is there an business interest of running on ARM processors? Is there a sale advantage of having this? I don't want to sound too inquisitive nor pedantic, those are real questions. As stated in previous mails, running on the platform is a technical challenge per se (I couldn't make it if I wanted), but it's just a very small part of "deploying to Android". And I'm not talking about app stores. Even though Android (AOSP) is Linux based, the memory/battery constraints makes that apps or services lifecycle completely different to regular unix processes. And I don't see how this fits into the whole android environment. Last time I tried (+1yr) it the VM was a permanent process, without access to device sensors, etc.[*] I have a genuine interest in this topic, because my company depends both on Pharo and Android (native) software. But how I see this, the advantage of Pharo running on Android for devices other than phones/tablets, more kind of "internet of things" devices. The advantage is also that the image is an asset of the vm, so you can update your app without having to reinstall it through the platform app management. Please don't let this stop you guys from doing this VM even for the fun/sake of doing it. But as you are making this public, I feel allowed to ask questions and add comments. You can simply ignore them. :) Regards, Esteban A. Maringolo [*] Several years ago I took a private course of "mobile squeak", and even compiled a modified squeak VM for WinCE, running MVC based UIs. Back then Squeak UI was way better than WinCE's, even for "business apps". Now I think mobile expectations changed.

June 19, 2014

Pharo VM crash on seom DrGeo sketch

by Hilaire Fernandes

Hi, I have some VM crash on some DrGeo. It happens from the DrGeo file dialog when the preview of a sketch is computed. It is repeatable. I saw it on Mac, then in Linux as well. See below the log Hilaire -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu iStoa - https://launchpad.net/istoa

June 19, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Cloudfork HMAC-SHA256 in System-Hashing

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

I want to have a look, if you tell me where to look... On 19 Jun 2014, at 18:03, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On 19.06.2014, at 17:59, FranÃ§ois Stephany <tulipe.moutarde(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Does it make sense from a license point of view and practical point of view to include the CloudFork HMAC-SHA256 implementation (CFSH256 class) in the System-Hashing package (in where there's already SHA1 and MD5) ? > > Can Cloudfork HMAC-SHA256 be easily parameterized with, say, an SHA256 base implementation? Or does it require extra stuff? In the former case I probably wouldnât add it. In the latter case itâs open for discussion. Personally, I think it belongs into a separate package, not into System-Hashing. > > Cheers, > Max

June 19, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Cloudfork HMAC-SHA256 in System-Hashing

by Max Leske

On 19.06.2014, at 17:59, FranÃ§ois Stephany <tulipe.moutarde(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Does it make sense from a license point of view and practical point of view to include the CloudFork HMAC-SHA256 implementation (CFSH256 class) in the System-Hashing package (in where there's already SHA1 and MD5) ? Can Cloudfork HMAC-SHA256 be easily parameterized with, say, an SHA256 base implementation? Or does it require extra stuff? In the former case I probably wouldnât add it. In the latter case itâs open for discussion. Personally, I think it belongs into a separate package, not into System-Hashing. Cheers, Max

June 19, 2014

Cloudfork HMAC-SHA256 in System-Hashing

by FranÃ§ois Stephany

Does it make sense from a license point of view and practical point of view to include the CloudFork HMAC-SHA256 implementation (CFSH256 class) in the System-Hashing package (in where there's already SHA1 and MD5) ?

June 19, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Moose-dev] CodeCity and Spec

by Yuriy Tymchuk

Yay, Iâve done that! CodeCity and Spec: http://quick.as/blq9f5d1 On 17 Jun 2014, at 11:27, Benjamin <Benjamin.VanRyseghem.Pharo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > From what I remember, it was something like: > > RoassalModel new > script: [ :view :canvas | > my roassal stuff > ]; > openWithSpec > > Or you can then embed it as any other spec model > > Ben > > On 17 Jun 2014, at 10:27, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com> wrote: > >> Are there any examples how to use it? Iâm not a Spec guru, so any snipers are useful :) >> >> Uko >> >> On 13 Jun 2014, at 14:34, Johan Fabry <jfabry(a)dcc.uchile.cl> wrote: >> >>> Hola, >>> >>> AFAIK there are no plans for that. Maybe there is an alternative: there is a Roassal2 adaptor for Spec, Roassal2Spec package, which should now come with Roassal2. It allows you to have any Roassal2 visualization as a Spec ComposableModel. >>> >>> On Jun 13, 2014, at 4:47 AM, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> are there any suggestions for integrating CodeCity into Spec? E.g. using CodeCity visualisation in a view build by Spec. >>>> >>>> Uko >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <--- >>> >>> Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry >>> PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile >>> >>> >> >> >

June 19, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] vm over android

by Esteban A. Maringolo

2014-06-19 12:35 GMT-03:00 Jean Baptiste Arnaud <jbaptiste.arnaud(a)gmail.com>: > > Can you share what is the intended use of the android vm that you're > building? > > -_^ ? Run StackVM on an android is not enough from intellectual point of > view ? > I am not sure to understand the question. > Why I do that, "Because I can :-)" It's a fair answer. :) > The first objective is to have something usable on Android, which can be > easily update if for whatever reason I decide to stop or if someone want to > do it own android App. > First step: > -Having that running, with graphic based on unix source (with some change > but less possible). I like the idea of being able to instantiate a VM (SqueakVM.java) inside an Android bound Service, and forward good part of the logic to Smalltalk. But I don't know if the VM can run "headless" (without a SqueakView), or accept "evals" other than from a socket connection. I didn't see any evaluate(String code) method in SqueakVM.java when I analyzed the CogDroid vm back then. > If it isn't precise enough, be more direct :-). You kind of already answered my question, but I was wondering if there was an existing "user" of this new VM, for a specific application or game. And also if this VM was meant just "to run" on Android or also integrate with it. Regards! Esteban A. Maringolo

June 19, 2014