- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Refactoring HelpTopic (needs review)

by Nicolai Hess

2016-08-24 6:49 GMT+02:00 stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr>: > Hi nicolai > > I remember that I read everything and fix typos. Did you got my review or > did I suuceed to lose it ;). > No, I think it was lost :-/ > Stef > But the helpl is now in (60192), but it is still not finished, only a start, needs more examples and maybe better class comments. Everyone who wants to help, just try it out HelpBrowser openOn:RefactoringHelp read it and give feedback. If you find any typos, wrong or unclear information just report back, and I'll fix it. we need more and better docs we need more and better docs and it would help if we have more and better docs :-) > > > Le 6/8/16 Ã 15:24, Nicolai Hess a Ã©crit : > > > > 2016-07-28 16:18 GMT+02:00 stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr>: > >> I will! >> >> I love to read nice comments >> >> Stef >> >> > I updated the slice and added some more example (much more is needed but I > think it is better than having no doc :) ). > I changed some help topics on refactoring support in nautilus to directly > used the refactoring classes comments (no need to maintain two docs), but > this is not applicable for all refactorings, for example "generate > superclass" and "insert superclass" needs its own description, as there is > only one RBAddClassRefactoring comment. > > please help with reviewing, I am not good at writing this kind of text. > > The refactoring engine is a great and powerfull piece of code and it would > be great to have a proper documentation "in-image". > I have seen some bugs, bad code or wrong bug fixes by contributors not > fully understanding the framework (me too :) ). > > just load the slice and open > HelpBrowser openOn: RefactoringHelp. > > > thanks > nicolai > > > > >> Le 28/7/16 Ã 00:38, Nicolai Hess a Ã©crit : >> >> Hi, >> >> I recently added some class comments to the Refactoring-Package. >> (RBBrowserEnvironments, RBRefactoring, RBNamespace). >> >> Now I added some more HelpTopics describing the refactoring framework, >> some background information, RBPatternParser and Metavariables, some >> examples and put the existing class comments into the HelpBook. >> >> see fogbugz issue 18829 >> <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18829/Add-a-RefactoringFramework-System-H…> >> Add a RefactoringFramework System HelpTopic >> you can load the slice and open the HelpBook with >> >> HelpBrowser openOn: RefactoringHelp. >> >> Would be nice if someone can help with proofreading and of course, amy >> feedback is welcome. >> >> nicolai >> >> >> > >

Aug. 24, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

by Esteban Lorenzano

> On 24 Aug 2016, at 10:07, Gour <gour(a)atmarama.com> wrote: > > On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 09:38:20 +0200 > stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > > Hello, > >> Looking at bugs is really difficult. There are not enough people >> looking and fixing bugs. > > just a short note from a Pharo noob...it is, imho, very strange that one > cannot even take a look at bugs *without* creating account at tracker. > > By having ability to, at least, skim at bugs and see if there are some > low-hanging fruits to tackle, maybe more work could be accomplished? > > Having issue tracker closed for the public emits, imho, not very > friendly signal to potential contributors. yes, this is bad but fogbugz is a company that does issue tracking for big companies, not open source projects so they do not have this feature. You may ask then why we use themâ¦ is because we used to use google issue tracker and when they dropped support we needed some replacement. Long story short, none of the open issue tracker offered what we needed and fogbugz people kindly offered to give us a free account. Now we would like to solve this problem but is hard to leave because migration is a lot of work and also (very important) because maybe fogbugz does not looks super cool, but is an *excellent* tool for tracking our issuesâ¦ so we would need to find time to define a news process if we want to use, for example github or atlassianâ¦ cheers, Esteban > > > Sincerely, > Gour > > -- > Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. > Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. > The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because > they have seen the truth. > > >

Aug. 24, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

by Gour

On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 09:38:20 +0200 stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: Hello, > Looking at bugs is really difficult. There are not enough people > looking and fixing bugs. just a short note from a Pharo noob...it is, imho, very strange that one cannot even take a look at bugs *without* creating account at tracker. By having ability to, at least, skim at bugs and see if there are some low-hanging fruits to tackle, maybe more work could be accomplished? Having issue tracker closed for the public emits, imho, not very friendly signal to potential contributors. Sincerely, Gour -- Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth.

Aug. 24, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

by Esteban Lorenzano

Hi, I want to point just a couple of things: 1. You may feel hurt, but is my job to say no. If you think Iâm doing a bad job, is your right to discuss, but do not expect that what you consider a bad design decision would be shared by the board (and me as executor of board policies). 2. Features that goes inside Pharo are not decided by vote. They have to add value and share the Pharo vision (pointed in the vision document who is not slightly updated but still guides our steps). We try to reach consensus and if it is not possible, then we decide. Yes, is like thatâ¦ Iâm sorry for not being perfect democratic but this was never the idea of Pharo (it *has* a benevolent dictatorâ¦ who by the way is not me but a group, the board). 3. TxText vs. Twisty is a bad example (or a good example of how people can interpret things that does not know in a complete missed directionâ¦ our fault, this has to be communicated better)â¦ what actually happened is that Igor and Denis discussed the design and they had a disagreement, but Denis shared the vision of Igorâ¦ just no time to wait for it because he was working pressures, so he delivered Twistyâ¦ I love twisty and I use it a lot in my personal projects, but this was like thatâ¦ also, not all useful things needs to be inside Pharoâ¦ 4. You have a very negative opinion about our design choices. Thatâs ok, but we are not going to remove GT just because you dislike it. What we will do is to iterate over it until we have a version that satisfies most people and hopefully you tooâ¦ but this is like that, GT tools is our vision for the future development tools and it will stayâ¦ improved, of course. Which also means that we will not accept the inclusion of alternative tools. like another workspace or browserâ¦ Thierry did an excellent job with his AltBrowser, and we look a lot at it to take ideas, but we will not include it either and that does not means we have a problem with himâ¦ What we want it more people helping us to improve the GT tools and just asking for removal does not help. So again, I cannot stress this enough: Is my job to say no. I know I hurt some people but social development is complicated. I do not think I do a bad job :) cheers! Esteban > On 24 Aug 2016, at 09:38, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > > Hi Hernan > > First thanks for your email because we may disagree but we often agree. :) so this is an email for me. >> Hi Stef, >> >> Good communication implies being clear when writing about sensitive topics, especially when communicating through virtual channels. I am not in Europe, so I cannot discuss these things with you face to face. > This is what we want to change with montly videos meeting. >> Therefore is not clear to me (and others) what are your policies in many subjects. Lately I also delayed the release of packages because my lack of motivation around this community, specially when discussions exists around three or fourth topics for months. > > Like what? > Let us know because we do not >> Another "motivational" case for me. I stopped to report bugs in fogbuz because I felt there was too much "Won't fix" for me (specifically by a person but I won't go there...) even in cases where it was ilogical. Then I felt tired of reading "It's like that. Invalid". > This is a pity. > I know the feeling because some of mine are close too. You are not the only victim of the "Issue closing syndrom" ;). > And I would like the syndrome to be more human friendly. Thanks for raising this point. > > Now two points > - You should always send a mail to the mailing-list and that we discuss your points. > > - Now what will happen if we all open bugs and none of us works on the open bugs. > So what is the solution for you. I mean it concretely. How to deal with dying > > Looking at bugs is really difficult. There are not enough people looking and fixing bugs. > >> About features. >> >> What's the policy about voting for default features in next Pharo images? Let's suppose I am a VM/core Pharo maintainer and I want to include MySuperPackage into a Pharo release, which nobody needs (and I don't care), but it is useful to me.... there will ever be voting there? (note it doesn't makes sense if you are a group of 50 always supporting your work) > > It does not really work because engineers are paid for certain task. >> Images are becoming huge (at least for my workflows). There will be (more) packages included by default (for promotion?) ? > Thanks to raise this point because I mentioned it also to the board. So I like when I'm not alone. > Now we should not see look only at the size. Doing nothing is size zero :) > The point is what are the functionalities delivered. > > Three points: > - what are the key things we want? > keybinding, settings, cool inspector cool.... > > - how many duplicated functionality can we remove: > for example I want to merge MCDefinitions with Ring with RBDefinition > we removed pseudo* > but this is a lot of work > > The goal is to throw many system when bloc and brick are ready > > - what is the list of things that you would remove? > > - with the bootstrap and all the packages of the image managed with Cargo plus the git management > we believe that we will be able to manage a set of images with minimal images. > - this is several years that we are working on this goal. > Believe me this is the vision document not for the sake of it. > >> How do you plan to manage if some people want the Tests be removed from the official Image? (Personally I never run them) > - then you use a jenkins job to produce your image where you unload the tests. > >> Another example, what happens if another research group came with a better alternative to Calypso, Brick, Telescope, Bloc. Would you integrate first your tool to mark territory? > > No this is not a question of territory. Doru and GT does not do that in that spirit. > RMOD too. We do something when we think that this is better. > For example Epicea is three years of work of Martin, Fuel was so nice that we could not lose it. > You see Ghost got changed by denis, Seamless got rewritten from scratch. > >> Who decides? For example (IIRC) TxText and Twisty. > Igor looked at Twisty seriously and I do not think that it could handle large cobol files. > > (you see funnily denis is doing the same with Seamless - He rewrote it from scratch while > nick worked on it for several years). > > Igor wanted to have a stream-based API that could work on modern command-oriented videos card framework. > My team (on our own money if you understand what it means) > paid Igor to build TxText (and I can tell you that I would have prefered him to do something else). > > >> The same applies if anyone came with another rewrite of classic Smalltalk Workspace, Debugger and Inspector tools, what would you do with GT? GT stays because it came before and others would be optional? > No this is not like that. > If you are better or answer better needs. > >> There will be anything like PEPs? > I would love but will people have the energy to implement them? > I would definitively encourage you as a community to raise points on what you need. > >> If someone can answer me I think that would be an example of good communication. > Hernan I always answered your emails. I always consider your work (and you know it for other reasons and by my facts) after I'm not always in agreement as I'm not always in agreement with other board members and this is how live happens. > What is clear is that the most important aspects is to continue to communicate. This is why the board is launching > this initiative and I would love to see it taken by people even for their projects. > > >> >> HernÃ¡n >> >> >> 2016-08-24 1:51 GMT-03:00 stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>>: >> Hi guys >> >> the board got a good discussion at ESUG about how to improve and a lot of the discussion turned around improving communication. We got some ideas that we will propose soon but I would like to get *your* ideas. >> >> If you have idea about improving communication around pharo please tell us. >> >> >> Stef >> >> >> >

Aug. 24, 2016

[pharo-project/pharo-core] 37453d: 60192

by GitHub

Branch: refs/heads/6.0 Home: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core Commit: 37453d0fef93155634c3a198f58f01c8787d0aef https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core/commit/37453d0fef93155634c3a198… Author: Jenkins Build Server <board(a)pharo-project.org> Date: 2016-08-24 (Wed, 24 Aug 2016) Changed paths: M AST-Core.package/RBParser.class/instance/private-parsing/parseMethod.st M AST-Core.package/RBParser.class/instance/private-parsing/parseStatementList_into_.st A AST-Tests-Core.package/RBParserTest.class/instance/tests parsing/testInvalidPragmas.st M AST-Tests-Core.package/RBParserTest.class/instance/tests parsing/testPragmas.st A Collections-DoubleLinkedList.package/DoubleLink.class/README.md A Collections-DoubleLinkedList.package/DoubleLink.class/class/instance creation/value_.st A Collections-DoubleLinkedList.package/DoubleLink.class/definition.st A Collections-DoubleLinkedList.package/DoubleLink.class/instance/accessing/nextLink.st A 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Aug. 24, 2016

[pharo-project/pharo-core]

by GitHub

Branch: refs/tags/60192 Home: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core

Aug. 24, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

by stepharo

Hi Hernan First thanks for your email because we may disagree but we often agree. :) so this is an email for me. > Hi Stef, > > Good communication implies being clear when writing about sensitive > topics, especially when communicating through virtual channels. I am > not in Europe, so I cannot discuss these things with you face to face. This is what we want to change with montly videos meeting. > Therefore is not clear to me (and others) what are your policies in > many subjects. Lately I also delayed the release of packages because > my lack of motivation around this community, specially when > discussions exists around three or fourth topics for months. Like what? Let us know because we do not > Another "motivational" case for me. I stopped to report bugs in fogbuz > because I felt there was too much "Won't fix" for me (specifically by > a person but I won't go there...) even in cases where it was ilogical. > Then I felt tired of reading "It's like that. Invalid". This is a pity. I know the feeling because some of mine are close too. You are not the only victim of the "Issue closing syndrom" ;). And I would like the syndrome to be more human friendly. Thanks for raising this point. Now two points - You should always send a mail to the mailing-list and that we discuss your points. - Now what will happen if we all open bugs and none of us works on the open bugs. So what is the solution for you. I mean it concretely. How to deal with dying Looking at bugs is really difficult. There are not enough people looking and fixing bugs. > About features. > > What's the policy about voting for default features in next Pharo > images? Let's suppose I am a VM/core Pharo maintainer and I want to > include MySuperPackage into a Pharo release, which nobody needs (and I > don't care), but it is useful to me.... there will ever be voting > there? (note it doesn't makes sense if you are a group of 50 always > supporting your work) It does not really work because engineers are paid for certain task. > Images are becoming huge (at least for my workflows). There will be > (more) packages included by default (for promotion?) ? Thanks to raise this point because I mentioned it also to the board. So I like when I'm not alone. Now we should not see look only at the size. Doing nothing is size zero :) The point is what are the functionalities delivered. Three points: - what are the key things we want? keybinding, settings, cool inspector cool.... - how many duplicated functionality can we remove: for example I want to merge MCDefinitions with Ring with RBDefinition we removed pseudo* but this is a lot of work The goal is to throw many system when bloc and brick are ready - what is the list of things that you would remove? - with the bootstrap and all the packages of the image managed with Cargo plus the git management we believe that we will be able to manage a set of images with minimal images. - this is several years that we are working on this goal. Believe me this is the vision document not for the sake of it. > How do you plan to manage if some people want the Tests be removed > from the official Image? (Personally I never run them) - then you use a jenkins job to produce your image where you unload the tests. > Another example, what happens if another research group came with a > better alternative to Calypso, Brick, Telescope, Bloc. Would you > integrate first your tool to mark territory? No this is not a question of territory. Doru and GT does not do that in that spirit. RMOD too. We do something when we think that this is better. For example Epicea is three years of work of Martin, Fuel was so nice that we could not lose it. You see Ghost got changed by denis, Seamless got rewritten from scratch. > Who decides? For example (IIRC) TxText and Twisty. Igor looked at Twisty seriously and I do not think that it could handle large cobol files. (you see funnily denis is doing the same with Seamless - He rewrote it from scratch while nick worked on it for several years). Igor wanted to have a stream-based API that could work on modern command-oriented videos card framework. My team (on our own money if you understand what it means) paid Igor to build TxText (and I can tell you that I would have prefered him to do something else). > The same applies if anyone came with another rewrite of classic > Smalltalk Workspace, Debugger and Inspector tools, what would you do > with GT? GT stays because it came before and others would be optional? No this is not like that. If you are better or answer better needs. > There will be anything like PEPs? I would love but will people have the energy to implement them? I would definitively encourage you as a community to raise points on what you need. > If someone can answer me I think that would be an example of good > communication. Hernan I always answered your emails. I always consider your work (and you know it for other reasons and by my facts) after I'm not always in agreement as I'm not always in agreement with other board members and this is how live happens. What is clear is that the most important aspects is to continue to communicate. This is why the board is launching this initiative and I would love to see it taken by people even for their projects. > > HernÃ¡n > > > 2016-08-24 1:51 GMT-03:00 stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr > <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>>: > > Hi guys > > the board got a good discussion at ESUG about how to improve and a > lot of the discussion turned around improving communication. We > got some ideas that we will propose soon but I would like to get > *your* ideas. > > If you have idea about improving communication around pharo please > tell us. > > > Stef > > >

Aug. 24, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

by HernÃ¡n Morales Durand

Hi Stef, Good communication implies being clear when writing about sensitive topics, especially when communicating through virtual channels. I am not in Europe, so I cannot discuss these things with you face to face. Therefore is not clear to me (and others) what are your policies in many subjects. Lately I also delayed the release of packages because my lack of motivation around this community, specially when discussions exists around three or fourth topics for months. Another "motivational" case for me. I stopped to report bugs in fogbuz because I felt there was too much "Won't fix" for me (specifically by a person but I won't go there...) even in cases where it was ilogical. Then I felt tired of reading "It's like that. Invalid". About features. What's the policy about voting for default features in next Pharo images? Let's suppose I am a VM/core Pharo maintainer and I want to include MySuperPackage into a Pharo release, which nobody needs (and I don't care), but it is useful to me.... there will ever be voting there? (note it doesn't makes sense if you are a group of 50 always supporting your work) Images are becoming huge (at least for my workflows). There will be (more) packages included by default (for promotion?) ? How do you plan to manage if some people want the Tests be removed from the official Image? (Personally I never run them) Another example, what happens if another research group came with a better alternative to Calypso, Brick, Telescope, Bloc. Would you integrate first your tool to mark territory? Who decides? For example (IIRC) TxText and Twisty. The same applies if anyone came with another rewrite of classic Smalltalk Workspace, Debugger and Inspector tools, what would you do with GT? GT stays because it came before and others would be optional? There will be anything like PEPs? If someone can answer me I think that would be an example of good communication. HernÃ¡n 2016-08-24 1:51 GMT-03:00 stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr>: > Hi guys > > the board got a good discussion at ESUG about how to improve and a lot of > the discussion turned around improving communication. We got some ideas > that we will propose soon but I would like to get *your* ideas. > > If you have idea about improving communication around pharo please tell us. > > > Stef > > >

Aug. 24, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] About PythonDocTest for Pharo

by stepharo

> I am sorry, but I want to said it: we have tests. Why tests are not > for same purpose? (I would say they include it). > > As Tudor said: > > "they are way too disconnected from the code" > > > And this needs to be solved. > We already have nice feature in Nautilus: it shows "test icon" on > covered methods. We could extends this idea to simplify test visibility. > > Proposed solution is much simpler. But how much it is practical? How > many code could use it? > For simple cases like String methods is super nice. But could you > imaging it for Seaside code? or Morphic? The goal is not to replace nor to use that for everything. I'm not looking for the Graal (and tests are not the graal for documentation). I'm looking for something dead simple that helps me to understand little methods. It works in python that they also have tons of other ways to tests (probably even a test system that check on the line level like in Php). So instead of being defensive we should be more open to improvements when we are talking about documentations. Stef

Aug. 24, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] About PythonDocTest for Pharo

by stepharo

Ok this is your taste. My reality is different. Tests are far far away. I do not see them. They live in a different time zone. They are smart have a boring setup. I want documentation in front on my nose. No extra thinking no extra click Just right there. Stef Le 18/8/16 Ã 23:14, Denis Kudriashov a Ã©crit : > Hi. > > 2016-08-18 9:34 GMT+02:00 stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr > <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>>: > > withExtension: aString > > "Returns a new file reference with a different file extension" > > <exp: '/tmp/file.txt' asFileReference withExtension: 'log' > > value: '/tmp/file.log' asFileReference > > > ^ self withPath: (self path withExtension: aString) > > > So let me know what you think. > - tell me that we have already test unit (yes the ones I wrote > too) > => they do not have the same purpose > > > I am sorry, but I want to said it: we have tests. Why tests are not > for same purpose? (I would say they include it). > > As Tudor said: > > "they are way too disconnected from the code" > > > And this needs to be solved. > We already have nice feature in Nautilus: it shows "test icon" on > covered methods. We could extends this idea to simplify test visibility. > > Proposed solution is much simpler. But how much it is practical? How > many code could use it? > For simple cases like String methods is super nice. But could you > imaging it for Seaside code? or Morphic? > >

Aug. 24, 2016