- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Making GUI'S

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

+ 100000000 :) I want to invent a reasonable future :) On Jun 20, 2009, at 5:22 PM, Marcus Denker wrote: > > On 20.06.2009, at 10:52, Cameron Sanders wrote: > >> They could probably all learn from the other flavors. In fact, the >> cross-smalltalk portability is a negative for smalltalk. >> >> I believe I tried smalltalk/X... that's the natively-compiled one, >> right? So it feels like C++ if you change a root class -- or am I >> confusing it with another? I'm on a new platform and can't check what >> all I installed last year, at the moment. >> >> I like the idea of a compiled version!! And there would be a place >> for >> it in my world, *if* I could take code from Pharo and load it into >> say, Smalltalk/X, and have it work without a month-long debugging >> session. > > One huge problem with compatibility is always that it reduces any > possibility > in evolving/improving the system. If the goal is to be compatible to > e.g. > all of Smalltalk X, Visualworks, Squeak, Gemstone.... than, in the > end, this means we can not > do anything anymore, and, most importantly: we can not do any *fun* > things anymore. > > Beeing compatible means reducing what you do to the subset of all the > dialects, and than > stop doing anything. > > If I you should choose between a) "inventing the future" and b) "be > compatible to VisualWorks", > what would you take? > > And I personally have already choosen for the "inventing the future" > route, I guess. It makes > no sense to be in Research (and beeing payed those wonderful tiny > salaries) and than do boring stuff. > That makes no sense. > > I personally think that the possibility and duty of working on > interesting things is part of the > overall compensation package of people in Research. > > Marcus > > -- > Marcus Denker - http://marcusdenker.de > PLEIAD Lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

June 20, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Making GUI'S

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Jun 20, 2009, at 4:52 PM, Cameron Sanders wrote: > They could probably all learn from the other flavors. In fact, the > cross-smalltalk portability is a negative for smalltalk. > > I believe I tried smalltalk/X... that's the natively-compiled one, > right? So it feels like C++ if you change a root class -- or am I > confusing it with another? I'm on a new platform and can't check what > all I installed last year, at the moment. not at all Smalltalk/X looks like VW. May be you tried MTSmalltalk > I like the idea of a compiled version!! And there would be a place for > it in my world, *if* I could take code from Pharo and load it into > say, Smalltalk/X, and have it work without a month-long debugging > session. what is important for pharo is not to be backward compatible else we are dead. > > -Cam > > > On Jun 20, 2009, at 1:01 AM, Rudi Engelbrecht wrote: > >> Have you looked at Smalltalk/X? > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

June 20, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Making GUI'S

by Eagle Offshore

Which I find funny because the one commercial grade swing app I did, I ended up building all that stuff because it was the only way I could see to get multiple views synced to the model without writing tons of glue code. Also, swing widgets don't like having null values as their data sources so the value models would keep them from throwing null pointer exceptions all the time. On Jun 20, 2009, at 4:25 AM, Steve Wirts wrote: > I did a talk(attached) at OOPSLA several years ago to explain the > benefits of ValueModels to java programmers, it was way over their > heads. > It's unfortunate as today I've yet to see anything in java that > approaches the productivity they provide. > > > > 2009/6/20 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> > Steve, > > Interesting that you mention value models. I just ran into a use > for a ValueHolder, and discovered that Dolphin's #value, #value: > protocol was not present. In fact ValueHolder>>value answers the > receiver! I added an override to my Dolphin compatibility package. > I exepect to add AspectValueAdapter and perhaps some converters as > need arises. > > None of this takes away from Magritte; I share your interest in it > and willingness to consider it as potentially powerful tool for GUI > building. > > Bill > > > > > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr > ] On Behalf Of Steve Wirts > Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 8:01 PM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Making GUI'S > > Value Models, TypeConverter library, SubCanvas support(super > powerful idea here), etc... some really wonderful idioms long lost > in OO guis. > VisualWorks had some really nice frameworks that were discarded due > to them being undervalued. > I hope to eventually re-introduce some of these fun frameworks into > pharo given my time constraints and interest from potential users. > > see > http://c2.com/ppr/vmodels.html > > Magritte seems like it might be a superior alternative to > VisualWorks ValueModels; I haven't explored it enough to really > know yet. > Pharo is the most exciting thing to come along for me in quite awhile! > > > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 4:42 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > > wrote: > > > > I don't know what I am waiting for -- except more time -- because I > > guess I should build such a thing. (Are there any Pharo/squeak > coders > > available for part-time consulting over the next year? ...At student > > level pay I must add.) > > > > I too want a GUI builder. > > > me too :) > So may be we could have a kind of bounty system for pharo. > Frankly we are rather full and we (the core) have not that much time > for > extensions but we would support any work in the direction of > UIBuilder > TestServer > Package.... > FileWrite-Rio kind of integration > Better MC support (yes I should look at MC1.5) > Better SUnit > Better tools (for example like the newInspector) > > Stef > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > <value models.ppt>_______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

June 20, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Compatibility (was Making GUI'S)

by Janko MivÅ¡ek

Hi Marcus, I agree that compatibility reduce possibility to evolve/improve the system. But on the other hand being not compatible you risk to stay alone. I think that everything lyes in clever judgment: how much to sty compatible and how much go into new, fresh and deeper waters. I'm sure it is good not to touch the Smalltalk core things like syntax and this is even not needed, Smalltalk fathers did a really good job to make its syntax eternally useful and feature complete. Libraries are something to evolve, but again very carefully the fundamental parts (collections,...) while other, like GUI, well, here are a lot of opportunities to evolve. Best regards Janko P.S.: Yes, that's how I evolve Aida/Web. Some parts are fixed, while other evolve like crazy. Without much compatibility hassles, so far. Marcus Denker pravi: > One huge problem with compatibility is always that it reduces any > possibility > in evolving/improving the system. If the goal is to be compatible to > e.g. > all of Smalltalk X, Visualworks, Squeak, Gemstone.... than, in the > end, this means we can not > do anything anymore, and, most importantly: we can not do any *fun* > things anymore. > > Beeing compatible means reducing what you do to the subset of all the > dialects, and than > stop doing anything. > > If I you should choose between a) "inventing the future" and b) "be > compatible to VisualWorks", > what would you take? > > And I personally have already choosen for the "inventing the future" > route, I guess. It makes > no sense to be in Research (and beeing payed those wonderful tiny > salaries) and than do boring stuff. > That makes no sense. > > I personally think that the possibility and duty of working on > interesting things is part of the > overall compensation package of people in Research. > > Marcus -- Janko MivÅ¡ek AIDA/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si

June 20, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Making GUI'S

by Marcus Denker

On 20.06.2009, at 10:52, Cameron Sanders wrote: > They could probably all learn from the other flavors. In fact, the > cross-smalltalk portability is a negative for smalltalk. > > I believe I tried smalltalk/X... that's the natively-compiled one, > right? So it feels like C++ if you change a root class -- or am I > confusing it with another? I'm on a new platform and can't check what > all I installed last year, at the moment. > > I like the idea of a compiled version!! And there would be a place for > it in my world, *if* I could take code from Pharo and load it into > say, Smalltalk/X, and have it work without a month-long debugging > session. One huge problem with compatibility is always that it reduces any possibility in evolving/improving the system. If the goal is to be compatible to e.g. all of Smalltalk X, Visualworks, Squeak, Gemstone.... than, in the end, this means we can not do anything anymore, and, most importantly: we can not do any *fun* things anymore. Beeing compatible means reducing what you do to the subset of all the dialects, and than stop doing anything. If I you should choose between a) "inventing the future" and b) "be compatible to VisualWorks", what would you take? And I personally have already choosen for the "inventing the future" route, I guess. It makes no sense to be in Research (and beeing payed those wonderful tiny salaries) and than do boring stuff. That makes no sense. I personally think that the possibility and duty of working on interesting things is part of the overall compensation package of people in Research. Marcus -- Marcus Denker - http://marcusdenker.de PLEIAD Lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

June 20, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Making GUI'S

by Rob Rothwell

Also just wondering what anyone thought of the concept of Maui in the context of this discussion! http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3836 Rob 2009/6/20 Steve Wirts <stevewirts(a)gmail.com> > I did a talk(attached) at OOPSLA several years ago to explain the benefits > of ValueModels to java programmers, it was way over their heads. > It's unfortunate as today I've yet to see anything in java that approaches > the productivity they provide. > > > > 2009/6/20 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> > > Steve, >> >> Interesting that you mention value models. I just ran into a use for a >> ValueHolder, and discovered that Dolphin's #value, #value: protocol was not >> present. In fact ValueHolder>>value answers the receiver! I added an >> override to my Dolphin compatibility package. I exepect to add >> AspectValueAdapter and perhaps some converters as need arises. >> >> None of this takes away from Magritte; I share your interest in it and >> willingness to consider it as potentially powerful tool for GUI building. >> >> Bill >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto: >> pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] *On Behalf Of *Steve Wirts >> *Sent:* Friday, June 19, 2009 8:01 PM >> *To:* Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> *Subject:* Re: [Pharo-project] Making GUI'S >> >> Value Models, TypeConverter library, SubCanvas support(super powerful idea >> here), etc... some really wonderful idioms long lost in OO guis. >> VisualWorks had some really nice frameworks that were discarded due to >> them being undervalued. >> I hope to eventually re-introduce some of these fun frameworks into pharo >> given my time constraints and interest from potential users. >> >> see >> http://c2.com/ppr/vmodels.html >> >> Magritte seems like it might be a superior alternative to VisualWorks >> ValueModels; I haven't explored it enough to really know yet. >> Pharo is the most exciting thing to come along for me in quite awhile! >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 4:42 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse < >> stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> >>> > >>> > I don't know what I am waiting for -- except more time -- because I >>> > guess I should build such a thing. (Are there any Pharo/squeak coders >>> > available for part-time consulting over the next year? ...At student >>> > level pay I must add.) >>> > >>> > I too want a GUI builder. >>> >>> >>> me too :) >>> So may be we could have a kind of bounty system for pharo. >>> Frankly we are rather full and we (the core) have not that much time for >>> extensions but we would support any work in the direction of >>> UIBuilder >>> TestServer >>> Package.... >>> FileWrite-Rio kind of integration >>> Better MC support (yes I should look at MC1.5) >>> Better SUnit >>> Better tools (for example like the newInspector) >>> >>> Stef >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

June 20, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Making GUI'S

by Rob Rothwell

Just wondering if something similar can be done with Announcements? I think the Omnibrowser folks recently started wiring everything together using Announcments...? Not sure...just interested! Take care, Rob 2009/6/20 Steve Wirts <stevewirts(a)gmail.com> > I did a talk(attached) at OOPSLA several years ago to explain the benefits > of ValueModels to java programmers, it was way over their heads. > It's unfortunate as today I've yet to see anything in java that approaches > the productivity they provide. > > > > 2009/6/20 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> > > Steve, >> >> Interesting that you mention value models. I just ran into a use for a >> ValueHolder, and discovered that Dolphin's #value, #value: protocol was not >> present. In fact ValueHolder>>value answers the receiver! I added an >> override to my Dolphin compatibility package. I exepect to add >> AspectValueAdapter and perhaps some converters as need arises. >> >> None of this takes away from Magritte; I share your interest in it and >> willingness to consider it as potentially powerful tool for GUI building. >> >> Bill >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto: >> pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] *On Behalf Of *Steve Wirts >> *Sent:* Friday, June 19, 2009 8:01 PM >> *To:* Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> *Subject:* Re: [Pharo-project] Making GUI'S >> >> Value Models, TypeConverter library, SubCanvas support(super powerful idea >> here), etc... some really wonderful idioms long lost in OO guis. >> VisualWorks had some really nice frameworks that were discarded due to >> them being undervalued. >> I hope to eventually re-introduce some of these fun frameworks into pharo >> given my time constraints and interest from potential users. >> >> see >> http://c2.com/ppr/vmodels.html >> >> Magritte seems like it might be a superior alternative to VisualWorks >> ValueModels; I haven't explored it enough to really know yet. >> Pharo is the most exciting thing to come along for me in quite awhile! >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 4:42 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse < >> stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> >>> > >>> > I don't know what I am waiting for -- except more time -- because I >>> > guess I should build such a thing. (Are there any Pharo/squeak coders >>> > available for part-time consulting over the next year? ...At student >>> > level pay I must add.) >>> > >>> > I too want a GUI builder. >>> >>> >>> me too :) >>> So may be we could have a kind of bounty system for pharo. >>> Frankly we are rather full and we (the core) have not that much time for >>> extensions but we would support any work in the direction of >>> UIBuilder >>> TestServer >>> Package.... >>> FileWrite-Rio kind of integration >>> Better MC support (yes I should look at MC1.5) >>> Better SUnit >>> Better tools (for example like the newInspector) >>> >>> Stef >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

June 20, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Making GUI'S

by Cameron Sanders

They could probably all learn from the other flavors. In fact, the cross-smalltalk portability is a negative for smalltalk. I believe I tried smalltalk/X... that's the natively-compiled one, right? So it feels like C++ if you change a root class -- or am I confusing it with another? I'm on a new platform and can't check what all I installed last year, at the moment. I like the idea of a compiled version!! And there would be a place for it in my world, *if* I could take code from Pharo and load it into say, Smalltalk/X, and have it work without a month-long debugging session. -Cam On Jun 20, 2009, at 1:01 AM, Rudi Engelbrecht wrote: > Have you looked at Smalltalk/X?

June 20, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Making GUI'S

by Steve Wirts

I did a talk(attached) at OOPSLA several years ago to explain the benefits of ValueModels to java programmers, it was way over their heads. It's unfortunate as today I've yet to see anything in java that approaches the productivity they provide. 2009/6/20 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> > Steve, > > Interesting that you mention value models. I just ran into a use for a > ValueHolder, and discovered that Dolphin's #value, #value: protocol was not > present. In fact ValueHolder>>value answers the receiver! I added an > override to my Dolphin compatibility package. I exepect to add > AspectValueAdapter and perhaps some converters as need arises. > > None of this takes away from Magritte; I share your interest in it and > willingness to consider it as potentially powerful tool for GUI building. > > Bill > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto: > pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] *On Behalf Of *Steve Wirts > *Sent:* Friday, June 19, 2009 8:01 PM > *To:* Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > *Subject:* Re: [Pharo-project] Making GUI'S > > Value Models, TypeConverter library, SubCanvas support(super powerful idea > here), etc... some really wonderful idioms long lost in OO guis. > VisualWorks had some really nice frameworks that were discarded due to them > being undervalued. > I hope to eventually re-introduce some of these fun frameworks into pharo > given my time constraints and interest from potential users. > > see > http://c2.com/ppr/vmodels.html > > Magritte seems like it might be a superior alternative to VisualWorks > ValueModels; I haven't explored it enough to really know yet. > Pharo is the most exciting thing to come along for me in quite awhile! > > > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 4:42 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse < > stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > >> > >> > I don't know what I am waiting for -- except more time -- because I >> > guess I should build such a thing. (Are there any Pharo/squeak coders >> > available for part-time consulting over the next year? ...At student >> > level pay I must add.) >> > >> > I too want a GUI builder. >> >> >> me too :) >> So may be we could have a kind of bounty system for pharo. >> Frankly we are rather full and we (the core) have not that much time for >> extensions but we would support any work in the direction of >> UIBuilder >> TestServer >> Package.... >> FileWrite-Rio kind of integration >> Better MC support (yes I should look at MC1.5) >> Better SUnit >> Better tools (for example like the newInspector) >> >> Stef >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

June 20, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Making GUI'S

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

our goal is to make sure that you will have a nice clean system to build such cool libraries. Stef On Jun 20, 2009, at 3:01 AM, Steve Wirts wrote: > Value Models, TypeConverter library, SubCanvas support(super > powerful idea here), etc... some really wonderful idioms long lost > in OO guis. > VisualWorks had some really nice frameworks that were discarded due > to them being undervalued. > I hope to eventually re-introduce some of these fun frameworks into > pharo given my time constraints and interest from potential users. > > see > http://c2.com/ppr/vmodels.html > > Magritte seems like it might be a superior alternative to > VisualWorks ValueModels; I haven't explored it enough to really > know yet. > Pharo is the most exciting thing to come along for me in quite awhile! > > > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 4:42 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > > wrote: > > > > I don't know what I am waiting for -- except more time -- because I > > guess I should build such a thing. (Are there any Pharo/squeak > coders > > available for part-time consulting over the next year? ...At student > > level pay I must add.) > > > > I too want a GUI builder. > > > me too :) > So may be we could have a kind of bounty system for pharo. > Frankly we are rather full and we (the core) have not that much time > for > extensions but we would support any work in the direction of > UIBuilder > TestServer > Package.... > FileWrite-Rio kind of integration > Better MC support (yes I should look at MC1.5) > Better SUnit > Better tools (for example like the newInspector) > > Stef > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

June 20, 2009