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Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability andlook-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re:[ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean))

by Gary Chambers

Ouch! Wonder why... (2.8 Quad core here, Vista 64bit SP1, 4GB ram, Pharo-core-10371, Arial 10 fonts via FreeType *StandardToolSet*, image backgound (clownfish)). 260ms is best time recorded. Regards, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: Benoit St-Jean To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 6:05 PM Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability andlook-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re:[ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean)) If that helps, I get 7316ms !! Pharo0.1 Latest update: #10373 On Windows XP, SP3 Dual Core, 3GHz, 2Gb RAM Vanilla Pharo image with FFI & ODBC packages loaded. ----------------- Benoit St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Blog: lamneth.wordpress.com A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero. (Albert Einstein) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Gary Chambers <gazzaguru2(a)btinternet.com> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2009 1:01:00 PM Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean)) As I mentioned on squeak-dev... With the StandardToolSet I get 300ms or less... Regards, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Cassou" <damien.cassou(a)gmail.com> To: "Pharo Development" <pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr>; "David RÃ¶thlisberger" <roethlis(a)iam.unibe.ch> Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 5:22 PM Subject: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean)) > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Andreas Raab <andreas.raab(a)gmx.de> > Date: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 5:40 PM > Subject: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The > future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] Pharo MIT > licenseclean)) > To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list > <squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> > > > > [ToolSet default browse: Behavior selector: nil] timeToRun. > > On my box this takes 506 msecs in Squeak 3.10, using Pharo it's at > 5020 msecs. That's 10x slower. > > > -- > Damien Cassou > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st > > "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them > popular by not having them." James Iry > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 9, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean))

by Benoit St-Jean

If that helps, I get 7316ms !! Pharo0.1 Latest update: #10373 On Windows XP, SP3 Dual Core, 3GHz, 2Gb RAM Vanilla Pharo image with FFI & ODBC packages loaded. ----------------- Benoit St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Blog: lamneth.wordpress.com A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero. (Albert Einstein) ________________________________ From: Gary Chambers <gazzaguru2(a)btinternet.com> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2009 1:01:00 PM Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean)) As I mentioned on squeak-dev... With the StandardToolSet I get 300ms or less... Regards, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Cassou" <damien.cassou(a)gmail.com> To: "Pharo Development" <pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr>; "David RÃ¶thlisberger" <roethlis(a)iam.unibe.ch> Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 5:22 PM Subject: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean)) > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Andreas Raab <andreas.raab(a)gmx.de> > Date: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 5:40 PM > Subject: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The > future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] Pharo MIT > licenseclean)) > To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list > <squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> > > > > [ToolSet default browse: Behavior selector: nil] timeToRun. > > On my box this takes 506 msecs in Squeak 3.10, using Pharo it's at > 5020 msecs. That's 10x slower. > > > -- > Damien Cassou > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st > > "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them > popular by not having them." James Iry > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project __________________________________________________________________ The new Internet ExplorerÂ® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/

July 9, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean))

by Gary Chambers

As I mentioned on squeak-dev... With the StandardToolSet I get 300ms or less... Regards, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Cassou" <damien.cassou(a)gmail.com> To: "Pharo Development" <pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr>; "David RÃ¶thlisberger" <roethlis(a)iam.unibe.ch> Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 5:22 PM Subject: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean)) > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Andreas Raab <andreas.raab(a)gmx.de> > Date: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 5:40 PM > Subject: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The > future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] Pharo MIT > licenseclean)) > To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list > <squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> > > > > [ToolSet default browse: Behavior selector: nil] timeToRun. > > On my box this takes 506 msecs in Squeak 3.10, using Pharo it's at > 5020 msecs. That's 10x slower. > > > -- > Damien Cassou > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st > > "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them > popular by not having them." James Iry > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 9, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Squeak Forks Popularity & Trends Estimate

by Robert Peters

Hello everyone, 1. Whichever fork is most professional will win. I believe this was one of the goals of the Pharo project, so I'd have to say Pharo will eventually lead. 2. Smalltalk in all its forms will fail unless it can grab developer interest from outside the current community. Pharo may be better than Squeak, but if everyone moves from Squeak to Pharo, your audience is still too small to be significant. I'm a web-application developer (Django, GAE) and self-taught Python coder. I learned Python because it was easy, and there is a wealth of information available on the internet. If I have any problem in Python, I simply type 'python issue' into Google and within a few clicks I'm usually looking at the answer. When I tried to learn Smalltalk, it was intensely frustrating. There were no on-line resources, no tutorials, no explanations. I think the real question is, "Is Smalltalk a better language than Python?" By better, I mean, "Can I get done more coding tasks faster, in a more sustainable way?" Right now, the answer to this question is a resounding 'No'. But that answer might change with a slick Smalltalk package, and an abundance of developer resources. As it is, Smalltalk is a language for eccentrics. But it doesn't need to be that way. All of this to say that I really like the beautiful simplicity of Smalltalk's main paradigm - Message Passing. It's simple. It's elegant. But learning it is a stone bitch, and once you've learned it, it has only limited value (compared, for example, to the wealth of things one can do in Python). I wish this would change. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Squeak-Forks-Popularity---Trends-Estimate-tp3211130p32… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

July 9, 2009

[Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

by Damien Cassou

---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Andreas Raab <andreas.raab(a)gmx.de> Date: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 5:40 PM Subject: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean)) To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list <squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> [ToolSet default browse: Behavior selector: nil] timeToRun. On my box this takes 506 msecs in Squeak 3.10, using Pharo it's at 5020 msecs. That's 10x slower. -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry

July 9, 2009

[Pharo-project] New Pharo based on core 10373

by Damien Cassou

I've just released both Pharo and Pharo-web with some bug fixes that annoyed a lot of people: http://pharo-project.org/pharo-download -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry

July 9, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] OB, Completion and class variables (when used on the class side)

by Damien Cassou

On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 8:03 AM, Torsten Bergmann<astares(a)gmx.de> wrote: >>please open an issue and attach Romain Robbes to it. > > Issue opened (Issue #942) but how can I attach Romain to it? You should be able to change the owner of the report. I've done it myself. -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry

July 9, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Issue 940: (13/10) = 1.3 returns false

by Hernan Wilkinson

So, Stef, what do we do? :-) I think we have discussed very interesting things is this thread. My conclusions are: 1) Nicolas made a change to avoid confusion when comparing "exact numbers" with "inexact numbers" (among others) 2) This change surprised some people (me in the first place) because it is not how other Smalltalks behave, it is a change in the philosophy of Smalltalk and thus it logically generates disagreements 3) It is clear that Floats are needed due to performance issues, and it is also clear that when performance is not a problem Smalltalk numbers should behave as close as possible (if not equal to) arithmetic. So, I devise these paths: 1) Leave things as they are now in the latest Pharo image, and wait to see if Nicola's change affects real applications (not just tests as it was my case) 2) Same as 1 but making float equals work only when comparing between floats 3) Change the Number hierarchy and make a clear distinction between exact numbers and inexact numbers. Make exact numbers behave as one expects in real math 4) Go back to how things were I think they are pretty much the options... My vote goes for 1 right now. To make 2 we need to experiment more and see how it behaves. I really like 3, I'd love to see that implemented in Smalltalk but doing that model is not easy, it will take time (hey, you have a research track there!), and 4 does not make sense after Nicolas explanations Bye, Hernan. On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 6:04 AM, Andres Valloud<avalloud(a)smalltalk.comcastbiz.net> wrote: > Stephane, >> Computer float numbers are NOT math float numbers. Let us accept it. >> >> > > I agree with your sentiment. Â At the risk of being overly precise, I'd > state that computer float numbers are not our everyday decimal numbers. > I'd avoid the reference to "math" because computer floating point > numbers do have significant math behind them. > > Andres. > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

July 9, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Integrator process

by Adrian Lienhard

Here a small diagram of the process: Not sure how to attach this to the wiki, though. Adrian On Jul 9, 2009, at 09:15 , StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > I tried to give a description of the boring work we are doing in the > back. > > http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/IntegrationProcessDescription > > Stef > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 9, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Issue 940: (13/10) = 1.3 returns false

by Andres Valloud

Stephane, > Computer float numbers are NOT math float numbers. Let us accept it. > > I agree with your sentiment. At the risk of being overly precise, I'd state that computer float numbers are not our everyday decimal numbers. I'd avoid the reference to "math" because computer floating point numbers do have significant math behind them. Andres.

July 9, 2009