January 2016 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Contributing to Pharo

by stepharo

Le 16/1/16 00:15, Henrik Sperre Johansen a Ã©crit : > Or, try a stable release. > Whenever I try developing on the latest version, I end up getting > disrupted by bugs in the core tools 70-80% of the time. > For released versions, in 1.4 it was maybe 5%, in 2.0 40%, in 3.0 20%, > in 4.0 10% > So at least it's been trending downwards, though I expect a totally > new debugger, image format, RBParser unification and new FFI in 5.0 > will keep causing problems for a quite a while. > Yes the point is really to understand that we changed a lot of things because they had to. So this is important to put bugs in perspective to changes. Now we should improve the test coverage too Stef

Jan. 16, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Vm-dev] Unable to read Utf8 ?

by Esteban Lorenzano

> On 16 Jan 2016, at 11:59, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Le 16/01/2016 11:39, Esteban Lorenzano a Ã©crit : >> >>> On 16 Jan 2016, at 10:45, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi Thierry, >>> >>> up until a few hours ago the latest VM sources were indeed broken >>> by work I was doing on 64 bits. My sources are AFAIA now correct >>> and I suppose you're waiting on Esteban doing a merge. But I'm >>> responding since there seems to be a process error here. >> >> is still broken :) >> >>> >>> I need the freedom to break the VM, otherwise I can only extend it >>> with difficulty. This assumes that there are currently servers >>> that build and test the VM, and implies that we maintain the notion >>> of the most recent good VM that has passed all the tests, and that >>> this is the "latest" VM everyone is using. >>> >>> If there isn't this distinction then every time I extend the VM and >>> make inevitable mistakes I affect users. That's clearly not >>> sensible. >> >> yes of course, what we have is two versions of the VM: >> >> - âlatest" build is a build with latest sourcesâ¦ this might be >> broken. People willing to help us find bugs should use this. - >> âstableâ build is the VM after it passed all testsâ¦ and thatâs what >> people willing some stability should use :) >> >> what actually is happening now is that there is a lot of people >> helping in the migration of spur (something I thank, a lot) and then >> they use latest vm versionâ¦ who is usually very stable (but not >> always, as is the case). > > I think the issue was that the latest vm has been very stable and that it suddenly broke was a bit unexpected. At the same time, in the pre-spur days, the stable was a very old build. yes, true. Now latest spur stable is from 14/01 soâ¦ :P Esteban > > Thierry > >> cheers, Esteban >> >> >>> >>> _,,,^..^,,,_ (phone) >>> >>>> On Jan 16, 2016, at 1:21 AM, Thierry Goubier >>>> <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Guys, >>>> >>>> has something changed in string handling? I'm unable to get the >>>> latest Pharo to read files containing utf8 data. >>>> >>>> I tracked it down to a primitive (at:put:) in WideString and to >>>> the latest vm for Pharo 5, so, maybe there is something wrong in >>>> the latest vm. >>>> >>>> Thierry

Jan. 16, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Color yzw

by stepharo

How can we proceed? Because this coloring functionality is really important. Stef > >>> anyone an idea? >>> >> I'm trying to think. >> Looks like it would be good to be able to make a distinction between >> symbols and selectors (selectors installed >> in method dictionaries) >> > > yes, this would improve code completion a bit, too, as there are more > symbols than symbols that are actually names > of methods. > > The data could be created per environment (Smalltalk globals) the > first time and then cached till shutdown. > (it would be an array of size 46451, pointing to existing symbols). > > The environment could cache sent selectors, tooâ¦ pablo did an > experiment with that. > > Marcus >

Jan. 16, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Vm-dev] Unable to read Utf8 ?

by Thierry Goubier

Le 16/01/2016 11:39, Esteban Lorenzano a Ã©crit : > >> On 16 Jan 2016, at 10:45, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> >> Hi Thierry, >> >> up until a few hours ago the latest VM sources were indeed broken >> by work I was doing on 64 bits. My sources are AFAIA now correct >> and I suppose you're waiting on Esteban doing a merge. But I'm >> responding since there seems to be a process error here. > > is still broken :) > >> >> I need the freedom to break the VM, otherwise I can only extend it >> with difficulty. This assumes that there are currently servers >> that build and test the VM, and implies that we maintain the notion >> of the most recent good VM that has passed all the tests, and that >> this is the "latest" VM everyone is using. >> >> If there isn't this distinction then every time I extend the VM and >> make inevitable mistakes I affect users. That's clearly not >> sensible. > > yes of course, what we have is two versions of the VM: > > - âlatest" build is a build with latest sourcesâ¦ this might be > broken. People willing to help us find bugs should use this. - > âstableâ build is the VM after it passed all testsâ¦ and thatâs what > people willing some stability should use :) > > what actually is happening now is that there is a lot of people > helping in the migration of spur (something I thank, a lot) and then > they use latest vm versionâ¦ who is usually very stable (but not > always, as is the case). I think the issue was that the latest vm has been very stable and that it suddenly broke was a bit unexpected. At the same time, in the pre-spur days, the stable was a very old build. Thierry > cheers, Esteban > > >> >> _,,,^..^,,,_ (phone) >> >>> On Jan 16, 2016, at 1:21 AM, Thierry Goubier >>> <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Guys, >>> >>> has something changed in string handling? I'm unable to get the >>> latest Pharo to read files containing utf8 data. >>> >>> I tracked it down to a primitive (at:put:) in WideString and to >>> the latest vm for Pharo 5, so, maybe there is something wrong in >>> the latest vm. >>> >>> Thierry >>> > > >

Jan. 16, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Vm-dev] Unable to read Utf8 ?

by Esteban Lorenzano

> On 16 Jan 2016, at 11:39, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > >> On 16 Jan 2016, at 10:45, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> Hi Thierry, >> >> up until a few hours ago the latest VM sources were indeed broken by work I was doing on 64 bits. My sources are AFAIA now correct and I suppose you're waiting on Esteban doing a merge. But I'm responding since there seems to be a process error here. > > is still broken :) btwâ¦ Iâm not merging anymore VMMaker packages, they are taken and built âas isâ (I worked a lot to get back to this, heh) :) this is what âlatestâ vm is. what happens is that time to time I still have to merge platform sourcesâ¦ but I made that Thursday so we are ok (just verified). Anyway, it is still broken :( > >> >> I need the freedom to break the VM, otherwise I can only extend it with difficulty. This assumes that there are currently servers that build and test the VM, and implies that we maintain the notion of the most recent good VM that has passed all the tests, and that this is the "latest" VM everyone is using. >> >> If there isn't this distinction then every time I extend the VM and make inevitable mistakes I affect users. That's clearly not sensible. > > yes of course, what we have is two versions of the VM: > > - âlatest" build is a build with latest sourcesâ¦ this might be broken. People willing to help us find bugs should use this. > - âstableâ build is the VM after it passed all testsâ¦ and thatâs what people willing some stability should use :) > > what actually is happening now is that there is a lot of people helping in the migration of spur (something I thank, a lot) and then they use latest vm versionâ¦ who is usually very stable (but not always, as is the case). > > cheers, > Esteban > > >> >> _,,,^..^,,,_ (phone) >> >>> On Jan 16, 2016, at 1:21 AM, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Guys, >>> >>> has something changed in string handling? I'm unable to get the latest Pharo to read files containing utf8 data. >>> >>> I tracked it down to a primitive (at:put:) in WideString and to the latest vm for Pharo 5, so, maybe there is something wrong in the latest vm. >>> >>> Thierry >>> >

Jan. 16, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Vm-dev] Unable to read Utf8 ?

by Esteban Lorenzano

> On 16 Jan 2016, at 10:45, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi Thierry, > > up until a few hours ago the latest VM sources were indeed broken by work I was doing on 64 bits. My sources are AFAIA now correct and I suppose you're waiting on Esteban doing a merge. But I'm responding since there seems to be a process error here. is still broken :) > > I need the freedom to break the VM, otherwise I can only extend it with difficulty. This assumes that there are currently servers that build and test the VM, and implies that we maintain the notion of the most recent good VM that has passed all the tests, and that this is the "latest" VM everyone is using. > > If there isn't this distinction then every time I extend the VM and make inevitable mistakes I affect users. That's clearly not sensible. yes of course, what we have is two versions of the VM: - âlatest" build is a build with latest sourcesâ¦ this might be broken. People willing to help us find bugs should use this. - âstableâ build is the VM after it passed all testsâ¦ and thatâs what people willing some stability should use :) what actually is happening now is that there is a lot of people helping in the migration of spur (something I thank, a lot) and then they use latest vm versionâ¦ who is usually very stable (but not always, as is the case). cheers, Esteban > > _,,,^..^,,,_ (phone) > >> On Jan 16, 2016, at 1:21 AM, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, >> >> has something changed in string handling? I'm unable to get the latest Pharo to read files containing utf8 data. >> >> I tracked it down to a primitive (at:put:) in WideString and to the latest vm for Pharo 5, so, maybe there is something wrong in the latest vm. >> >> Thierry >>

Jan. 16, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Unable to read Utf8 ?

by Thierry Goubier

Le 16/01/2016 10:45, Eliot Miranda a Ã©crit : > Hi Thierry, > > up until a few hours ago the latest VM sources were indeed broken by > work I was doing on 64 bits. My sources are AFAIA now correct and I > suppose you're waiting on Esteban doing a merge. But I'm responding > since there seems to be a process error here. > I need the freedom to break the VM, otherwise I can only extend it > with difficulty. This assumes that there are currently servers that > build and test the VM, and implies that we maintain the notion of the > most recent good VM that has passed all the tests, and that this is > the "latest" VM everyone is using. Yes, this seems to not have been the case, that is I could access as vmLatest a broken build, and it took me a little while to understand I could / should switch back to the 'stable' Spur Pharo vm to solve it. > If there isn't this distinction then every time I extend the VM and > make inevitable mistakes I affect users. That's clearly not > sensible. No worries; I agree it is better for your efforts that I am unable to get a broken vm unless I really mean to :) Thierry > _,,,^..^,,,_ (phone) > >> On Jan 16, 2016, at 1:21 AM, Thierry Goubier >> <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, >> >> has something changed in string handling? I'm unable to get the >> latest Pharo to read files containing utf8 data. >> >> I tracked it down to a primitive (at:put:) in WideString and to the >> latest vm for Pharo 5, so, maybe there is something wrong in the >> latest vm. >> >> Thierry >> > >

Jan. 16, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Growl setting name

by Dimitris Chloupis

There are A TON of things named Morphs inside Bloc. Bloc has no choice because it wants to be 100% compatible with Morphic. That means it has to offer a 100% Morphic API . What Bloc does is rework the ugly internals of Morphic offering a better implementation and of course adds a lot of new functionality and integrates Athens. Morphic is here to stay for a long time, at least until people migrate completely to Bloc and Bloc finally decides to drop Morphic support. I dont see that happening before Pharo 8-10. On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 12:07 PM Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 16 Jan 2016, at 09:18, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Personally I dont see the point of a rename, we got like 30% of people > coming from macos that will be familiar with the name Growl, 0% that will > be familiar with any other name. So you take a name that is very popular > and change it to something none knows, how is that an improvement ? > > What notification morph, or notification popup even means ? Is it a window > ? is it a right click menu popup ? > > Only the time having to port everything to the new name does not make it > worth it. > > > +1 > > also, afaik, migrating to bloc will not make morphs disappearâ¦ they will > just change its internal logic (in the examples Iâve seen, there > are still things named âMorphââ¦ they are just decomposed internallyâ¦ but I > donât know). > > Esteban > > > On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 10:12 AM stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > >> So if you want to change (and some tools should not hardcode access to >> GrowlMorph) >> a better name would be NotifierPopup >> >> Le 16/1/16 09:03, stepharo a Ã©crit : >> > but notificationPopup is misleading because this is not a Notification >> > (Exception). >> > >> > Stef >> > >> > Le 15/1/16 23:36, Ferlicot D. Cyril a Ã©crit : >> >> Le 15/01/2016 22:51, Mariano Martinez Peck a Ã©crit : >> >>> I clearly would use Notification as part of the name, and not Growl. >> >>> NotificationPopup? >> >>> >> >> I love this one! >> >> >> >>> -- >> >>> Mariano >> >>> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>

Jan. 16, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Contributing to Pharo

by Dimitris Chloupis

It really depend, when I was using pharo 4 back when it was the "unstable/alpha" version it was rock solid, same story with pharo 3. Pharo 5 is the first seriously problematic unstable pharo version. The reason is that Pharo 5 has a ton of core changes , new vm, new debugger, new guis api , new compiler in short a ton of new things went in. Even I that I love to working on the cutting edge of Pharo , I am forced to go back to pharo 4. Shortcuts dont work, latest update broke the rendering of menus, pharo 5 is a mess BUT when it becomes stable it will be our biggest update by far dwarfing all previous updates combined. Its even scarier if you take a look at the new stuff Pharo 6 will bring, I dont envy Esteban :D On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 11:08 AM David Allouche <david(a)allouche.net> wrote: > > > On 16 Jan 2016, at 02:42, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: > > > > So if occasionally if everything seems against you, after trying a > > fresh Image as you already did, slide back to the last build that > > worked for you (I don't think the issues you experience are Spur > > related, but 50496 might be a good fallback as Pre-Spur and > > Pre-GTDebugger). Then create a fresh Image from the latest build to > > test your Slice and in that time maybe the other issues have gone. > > Ok. So my earlier question (in Slack, I think) about how "unstable" is > unstable in Pharo is now answered. It's really unstable, not "Debian-like > unstable". > > It would also be nice to add some public info about that. I'll create an > issue. > > At the moment, I am stuck with GTDebugger, because it seems the old > debugger does not have any keyboard shortcut form stepping through code. > And that's something I would really really miss. So I'll suffer the pain of > all the other glitches, and see how that goes. > > >

Jan. 16, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Growl setting name

by Esteban Lorenzano

> On 16 Jan 2016, at 09:18, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Personally I dont see the point of a rename, we got like 30% of people coming from macos that will be familiar with the name Growl, 0% that will be familiar with any other name. So you take a name that is very popular and change it to something none knows, how is that an improvement ? > > What notification morph, or notification popup even means ? Is it a window ? is it a right click menu popup ? > > Only the time having to port everything to the new name does not make it worth it. +1 also, afaik, migrating to bloc will not make morphs disappearâ¦ they will just change its internal logic (in the examples Iâve seen, there are still things named âMorphââ¦ they are just decomposed internallyâ¦ but I donât know). Esteban > > On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 10:12 AM stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote: > So if you want to change (and some tools should not hardcode access to > GrowlMorph) > a better name would be NotifierPopup > > Le 16/1/16 09:03, stepharo a Ã©crit : > > but notificationPopup is misleading because this is not a Notification > > (Exception). > > > > Stef > > > > Le 15/1/16 23:36, Ferlicot D. Cyril a Ã©crit : > >> Le 15/01/2016 22:51, Mariano Martinez Peck a Ã©crit : > >>> I clearly would use Notification as part of the name, and not Growl. > >>> NotificationPopup? > >>> > >> I love this one! > >> > >>> -- > >>> Mariano > >>> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com <http://marianopeck.wordpress.com/> > >> > > > > > > > >

Jan. 16, 2016