January 2015 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] On Twitter

by horrido

That's a really, really good idea! Thanks! sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com wrote >> On Jan 5, 2015, at 2:02 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe < > sven@ > > wrote: >> >> Just wondering, did you actually see this page: >> >> http://pharo.org/success <http://pharo.org/success> >> >> ? >> >> This is all real, commercially successful stuff. >> >> Not that we don't need more traction, but it is important to understand >> and know what is already there. > > +1 > > Thatâs a good starting point Richard. > > Idea: if you interview the people beyond those cases it will make > everything more interesting for everybody -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/On-Twitter-tp4797177p4797875.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Jan. 5, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Bulk] [Bulk] Can MongoTalk execute plan javascript MongoDB queries?

by Norbert Hartl

Hi Eliot, > Am 05.01.2015 um 16:59 schrieb Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com>: > > Hi Norbert, > > this reminds me of something IIRC that Alan Knight did in TopLink, a commercial OR mapping tool. Alan allowed one to write queries in conventional Smalltalk such as > > db select: [:obj| obj name = 'foo' or: [obj feature isSomething]] > > but under the covers compiling this block into a query that the database could execute by evaluating the block once, passing in a "compiling" object that implements doesNotUnderstand: to catch the messages sent in the block. > > That technique could work in this context and avoid introducing the (excuse me for saying, /horrible/) tuple syntax. > IIRC I used that in Glorp as well (which is the open source successor of TopLink, right?) We have that, too. It is called MongoQueries and has been done by Nicholas Petton. For basic usage like your example above it works perfectly. But if it comes to special nested accessors or complex queries you end up having problems really quick. I think with a little love the MongoQueries package can easily be extended to support a fair amount of use cases. You are right, the nested dictionaries are awful but those smalltalk DSL mapping queries are really restricted and hard to make them powerful. So it is again the choice between beelzebub and the devil (as we say). Norbert > Eliot (phone) > > On Jan 5, 2015, at 4:41 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > >> >>> Am 05.01.2015 um 04:59 schrieb Yanni Chiu <yanni(a)rogers.com>: >>> >>> >>> On Jan 4, 2015, at 4:38 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: >>> >>>> someCollection select: { >>>> '$or' -> { >>>> { 'name' -> { >>>> '$regex' -> 'test' . >>>> '$options' -> 'i' } asDictionary } asDictionary. >>>> { 'description' -> { >>>> '$regex' -> 'test' . >>>> '$options' -> 'i' } asDictionary } asDictionary >>>> } >>>> } asDictionary >>> >>> That worked. I was close, but I was using $or: instead of $or, and I was missing one level of asDictionary. >>> >>> Just for the archive, thereâs one more query I needed, which was to find an object based on itâs object id. I ended up using: >>> >>> voyageId := Integer readFrom: (request at: #voyageId) base: 16. >>> someModel := SomeModel selectOne: { '_id' -> (OID value: voyageId) } asDictionary. >>> >>> This is a web app using Teapot and Mustache, so I write the voyageId out using: >>> >>> self voyageId value printStringHex >> >> Sounds cool. If you have anything to publish I'm interested what you've done. Especially if you have some nice tricks doing form handling in teapot. >> >> Btw. for the archive. A common use case I encounter is to query objects that are being referenced by another object. It works like this >> >> AnyClass>>#referencedBy: anObject >> ^ AnyClass selectMany: { >> 'reference.__id' -> anObject voyageId } asDictionary >> >> Norbert >> >> >

Jan. 5, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] On Twitter

by Sebastian Sastre

> On Jan 5, 2015, at 2:02 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > Just wondering, did you actually see this page: > > http://pharo.org/success <http://pharo.org/success> > > ? > > This is all real, commercially successful stuff. > > Not that we don't need more traction, but it is important to understand and know what is already there. +1 Thatâs a good starting point Richard. Idea: if you interview the people beyond those cases it will make everything more interesting for everybody

Jan. 5, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Object>>ifNilOrEmpty: aBlock

by Sebastian Sastre

> On Jan 5, 2015, at 1:48 PM, Henrik Johansen <henrik.s.johansen(a)veloxit.no> wrote: > >> >> On 05 Jan 2015, at 4:20 , Sebastian Sastre <sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>> wrote: >> >> Ah Henry but you are making the code to know if itâs a collection or not, I talking about making the code specifically to ignore that. >> >> Why that would lead to "bad code"? can you elaborate or put examples instead of adjectives? >> > > I did that already: I took a look at the thread and I donât see examples of bad code Iâm still curious about what you mean by that

Jan. 5, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] On Twitter

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

Just wondering, did you actually see this page: http://pharo.org/success ? This is all real, commercially successful stuff. Not that we don't need more traction, but it is important to understand and know what is already there. > On 05 Jan 2015, at 16:41, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > SRP has poster children. > > But seriously, Pharo is the "poster child". Seaside and Amber are the poster > children representing the web. > > I'm focussed on Amber because I firmly believe that Smalltalk must have a > good client-side story. The web is so important to the future of Smalltalk. > > > Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >> Yes I know, and it *is* an interesting project, for sure. >> >> But my remark was in the context of The Smalltalk Renaissance - does it >> really fit ? Is it the best poster child ? > > > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/On-Twitter-tp4797177p4797863.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >

Jan. 5, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Bulk] [Bulk] Can MongoTalk execute plan javascript MongoDB queries?

by Eliot Miranda

Hi Norbert, this reminds me of something IIRC that Alan Knight did in TopLink, a commercial OR mapping tool. Alan allowed one to write queries in conventional Smalltalk such as db select: [:obj| obj name = 'foo' or: [obj feature isSomething]] but under the covers compiling this block into a query that the database could execute by evaluating the block once, passing in a "compiling" object that implements doesNotUnderstand: to catch the messages sent in the block. That technique could work in this context and avoid introducing the (excuse me for saying, /horrible/) tuple syntax. Eliot (phone) On Jan 5, 2015, at 4:41 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > >> Am 05.01.2015 um 04:59 schrieb Yanni Chiu <yanni(a)rogers.com>: >> >> >> On Jan 4, 2015, at 4:38 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: >> >>> someCollection select: { >>> '$or' -> { >>> { 'name' -> { >>> '$regex' -> 'test' . >>> '$options' -> 'i' } asDictionary } asDictionary. >>> { 'description' -> { >>> '$regex' -> 'test' . >>> '$options' -> 'i' } asDictionary } asDictionary >>> } >>> } asDictionary >> >> That worked. I was close, but I was using $or: instead of $or, and I was missing one level of asDictionary. >> >> Just for the archive, thereâs one more query I needed, which was to find an object based on itâs object id. I ended up using: >> >> voyageId := Integer readFrom: (request at: #voyageId) base: 16. >> someModel := SomeModel selectOne: { '_id' -> (OID value: voyageId) } asDictionary. >> >> This is a web app using Teapot and Mustache, so I write the voyageId out using: >> >> self voyageId value printStringHex > > Sounds cool. If you have anything to publish I'm interested what you've done. Especially if you have some nice tricks doing form handling in teapot. > > Btw. for the archive. A common use case I encounter is to query objects that are being referenced by another object. It works like this > > AnyClass>>#referencedBy: anObject > ^ AnyClass selectMany: { > 'reference.__id' -> anObject voyageId } asDictionary > > Norbert > >

Jan. 5, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

by horrido

Thanks! I had never heard of Phratch (or Scratch, for that matter). It looks very promising. I can imagine it's sorta like LEGO in Smalltalk. What youngster wouldn't like that? Ben Coman wrote > Maybe Phratch? Then maybe they start looking under the hood? > http://www.phratch.com/ > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 10:31 PM, horrido < > horrido.hobbies@ > > wrote: > >> Oh, I didn't realize you were focussed on older kids. I'm looking at >> introducing Smalltalk at the elementary school level, getting kids hooked >> on >> Smalltalk at an early age. Probably a full-blown Pharo or Squeak image >> would >> be overkill. >> >> >> stepharo wrote >> > It depends what is the level you are looking for. >> > We are working on lectures and books for second and third year >> > university students. >> > >> > Now for kids I do not think that it matters if this the language or >> > software is writting in Smalltalk. >> > >> > Stef >> > >> > >> > Le 4/1/15 23:25, horrido a Ã©crit : >> >> I am intrigued. Where can I find more info about Smalltalk education >> in >> >> the >> >> schools? I want to see what I can do in Canada. >> >> >> >> I presume there is a Smalltalk image customized for the classroom and >> >> aimed >> >> at elementary school students. That's what I'm hoping for. >> >> >> >> >> >> stepharo wrote >> >>> ESUG is about the community. Without community then it is terrible. >> >>> We set up also a program for teachers. Now in the US there is nearly >> >>> nobody teaching smalltalk and this is a pity. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> View this message in context: >> >> >> http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797760.h… >> >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at >> >> Nabble.com. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> View this message in context: >> http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797846.h… >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at >> Nabble.com. >> >> -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797868.h… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Jan. 5, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Object>>ifNilOrEmpty: aBlock

by Henrik Johansen

> On 05 Jan 2015, at 4:20 , Sebastian Sastre <sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com> wrote: > > Ah Henry but you are making the code to know if itâs a collection or not, I talking about making the code specifically to ignore that. > > Why that would lead to "bad code"? can you elaborate or put examples instead of adjectives? > I did that already: On 05 Jan 2015, at 3:07 , Henrik Johansen <henrik.s.johansen(a)veloxit.no> wrote: >> it will lead to "are you a collection or single instance?" checks in almost every user of said variable. Cheers, Henry

Jan. 5, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Moose-dev] Re: GTDebugger raising an emergency debugger

by Tudor Girba

Great! Now, the Moose 5.1 image is usable on top of Pharo 4.0! There are still some red tests, but it works reasonably. It took about 1 day of work and it was mostly due to problems related with the GTDebugger (which I do not expect other projects to have ;)). Cheers, Doru On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Andrei Chis <chisvasileandrei(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > > I fixed the problem with the debugger. Let me know if you encounter any > other problems. > > Cheers, > Andrei > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 4:26 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > >> Yes. That one is based on Pharo 4.0 and it is not ready for consumption >> yet. >> >> Doru >> >> On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 3:08 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com >> > wrote: >> >>> https://ci.inria.fr/moose/job/moose-5.1/3/artifact/moose-5.1.zip >>> https://ci.inria.fr/moose/job/moose-5.1/3/ >>> >>> Alexandre >>> >>> > On Jan 5, 2015, at 10:48 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: >>> > >>> > Which job? :) >>> > >>> > Doru >>> > >>> > On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 2:27 PM, Alexandre Bergel < >>> alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: >>> > I have downloaded the last version of Moose, directly from jenkins >>> > >>> > Alexandre >>> > >>> > >>> > > On Jan 5, 2015, at 10:18 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> >>> wrote: >>> > > >>> > > Hi, >>> > > >>> > > I moved most of the jobs to use Pharo 4, and indeed, we have an >>> issue with the GTDebugger. >>> > > >>> > > What image are you using? >>> > > >>> > > Cheers, >>> > > Doru >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Alexandre Bergel < >>> alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: >>> > > Hi! >>> > > >>> > > I wanted to have a look at why some tests are failing in the last >>> version of moose. >>> > > But I cannot even open a debugger. >>> > > Maybe some classes are missing. I see SystemDictionary>>at: in the >>> call stack. >>> > > >>> > > Cheers, >>> > > Alexandre >>> > > -- >>> > > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>> > > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >>> > > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > Moose-dev mailing list >>> > > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>> > > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > -- >>> > > www.tudorgirba.com >>> > > >>> > > "Every thing has its own flow" >>> > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > Moose-dev mailing list >>> > > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>> > > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> > >>> > -- >>> > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>> > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >>> > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Moose-dev mailing list >>> > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>> > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > www.tudorgirba.com >>> > >>> > "Every thing has its own flow" >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Moose-dev mailing list >>> > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>> > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> >>> -- >>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "Every thing has its own flow" >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"

Jan. 5, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Old inspector and explorer

by Sebastian Sastre

Sure Doru, as said, Iâll share usability notes with you, we will talk about concrete cases and they are going to be aligned with my non-off-topic general reminder :) Thanks again for all the effort you are putting on this > On Jan 5, 2015, at 1:28 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > > Hi Sebastian, > > As I said, I do not see how your generic advice applies to the current situation. We went through concrete cases exactly to elucidate how people perceived the problems. > > If things would be as obvious as removing a click, we would not have this conversation, but it is not. That is why we have to talk about concrete scenarios. > > In the meantime, I addressed the two points raised in the thread: > - adding dynamic variables to the Raw view, and > - adding collection items in the Raw view. > > I will follow up with more details in the following days. > > Cheers, > Doru > > > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 3:31 PM, Sebastian Sastre <sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>> wrote: > since youâre working on this I really wish you could make the links yourself to get the right inspiration. You are the right guy for that. > > For everybody being critical of your own work is hard but is one of the most valuable things you can have. The vulgar thing is the opposite (being defensive) and thatâs the road to mediocrity. > > In any case, sure, I can take notes on usability and share it with you. > > As a start and concrete example take anything that now requires one extra click or keystroke that before was not. > > > >> On Jan 5, 2015, at 12:05 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com <mailto:tudor@tudorgirba.com>> wrote: >> >> Hi Sebastian, >> >> I really do not see how your reply applies to the case at hand. >> >> If you have a concrete remark regarding how something is less useful now, please feel free to make it. >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 3:00 PM, Sebastian Sastre <sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>> wrote: >> +1 >> >> Remember that âoldâ also means that it stands the test of time >> >> We need to be careful while innovating with the basics (workspace, inspecting, navigating code and debugging) because that impacts the whole economy of using this technology. >> >> Make productivity go up, never down! >> >> One additional click doesnât sound like a lot but if that happens for something that you do 400 times a day is ~8000 times a month or ~60 minutes of clicking like crazy with overhead you didnât have before. >> >> UX is King. >> >> No way back from that, it really rules (the only thing we have in control is what kingdom will we invent for it to rule) >> >> >> >> >>> On Dec 26, 2014, at 2:42 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote: >>> >>> + 10000 >>> >>> Debugging the rendering loops of Athens was such an example. In Bloc I get some race conditions with MC forked process... another fun one. >>> Let people decide!!! >>> >>> Doru I DO NOT WANT TO LEARN WHAT I DO NOT WANT TO LEARN! >>> I WANT to DECIDE WHEN. I control my agenda and my own schedule and my list is huge. >>> >>> >>> Stef >>>> Doru, >>>> >>>> I think your intention is a good one but slightly misplaced. I really like the idea of GTInspector. It surely is a great tool and maybe I'll start to build my own inspector on my kind of things. >>>> To me the difference is between "motivated to do" or "forced to do". Most of the time we are trying hard to solve our own problems. If in that progress other problems are forced upon us we get easily distracted and frustrated. The same goes for new tools. If I'm forced to use these it just means I have to deal with it first and only then I'm allowed to deal with my own problem. As it was in that special case the bug in nautilus and the new inspector made me shy away from developing something in 4.0 and now I'm back on 3.0. >>>> >>>> So I think the only possibility is to "offer" a new way of doing things and give people time to adjust. >>>> >>>> Norbert >>>> >>>>> Am 26.12.2014 um 13:18 schrieb Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com <mailto:tudor@tudorgirba.com>>: >>>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I think there must be a misunderstanding. >>>>> >>>>> There can be a good reason for having a basic inspector around, but I think the reason is not because people cannot choose what to use. >>>>> >>>>> There is a toggle to enable/disable the GTInspector. But, even without it, the main feature of the GTInspector is exactly to be extended the way people want and not impose a fixed way. This is completely different from what existed before. In fact, half a year ago there was no problem that people could neither choose nor extend anything. In the meantime, we can extend our workflows significantly. Adding the various flavors of browsing objects is perhaps a couple of lines long and each of us can tweak it because there is no higher entity that should decide anymore. >>>>> >>>>> What I cannot quite grasp is that while we pride ourselves with working on a reflective language, when we have reflective tools, we seem to not be able to take half an hour to build the tool that fits our needs. I am still wondering what is needed to improve this. I think that it's a problem of exercise or of communication, but it seems that just providing the examples that I linked before is not enough and most people look at the inspector still as a black box tool. I will try to work on a tutorial to see if it gets better, but do you find the moldability proposition not valuable or just unclear? >>>>> >>>>> But, as I said, there can still be a valid reason to enable a basic inspector that relies on a minimal of libraries (so, definitely not the Spec one) for the same reason we have an emergency debugger. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Doru >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Dec 25, 2014 at 11:43 AM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote: >>>>> I will add basicInspect in Object so that we can get access to the old inspector. >>>>> I like that people can choose their tools! >>>>> I mentioned that 20 times but people do not care apparently. >>>>> >>>>> Stef >>>>> >>>>> Le 23/12/14 11:50, Norbert Hartl a Ã©crit : >>>>> >>>>> Is there a way to get the old tools via shortcut? >>>>> >>>>> I started something new with pharo 4.0 today. I discovered a bug in Nautilus where every rename or deletion of a method raises a debugger. I tried finding the bug but struggled because to me the new inspector is really confusing. If I "just" want to unfold a few levels of references to get a glimpse of the structure the new tool prevents me from doing that. There is just to much information in this window and too much happening to me. >>>>> To me it looks like a power tool you need to get used to. So it is probably not the best tool for simple tasks and people new to this environment might be overwhelmed. At least I would like to be able to use the old tools. >>>>> >>>>> Norbert >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> www.tudorgirba.com <http://www.tudorgirba.com/> >>>>> >>>>> "Every thing has its own flow" >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com <http://www.tudorgirba.com/> >> >> "Every thing has its own flow" > > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com <http://www.tudorgirba.com/> > > "Every thing has its own flow"

Jan. 5, 2015