January 2015 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] R: Finish one thing today

by kilon alios

personally I dont see the point and it looks silly. Sometimes things take more time, sometimes releasing frequently is not a good idea because it comes with its own costs and delays. Coding like anything else in life is about critical thinking. Its about sitting down and deciding whats the best course for your project and if the course fails you change it. So I will have to be the only one here to thumb down this. On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 6:10 PM, Pablo R. Digonzelli <pdigonzelli(a)gmail.com> wrote: > +1 > > Ing. Pablo Digonzelli > Software Solutions > IP-Solutiones SRL > Metrotec SRL > 25 de Mayo 521 > San Miguel de TucumÃ¡n > Email: pdigonzelli(a)softsargentina.com > pdigonzelli(a)gmail.com > Cel: 5493815982714 > > ----- Mensaje original ----- > De: "Lorenzo Schiavina" <lorenzo(a)edor.it> > Para: "Pharo Development List" <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> > Enviados: MiÃ©rcoles, 14 de Enero 2015 13:09:53 > Asunto: [Pharo-dev] R: Finish one thing today > > +1 > > Lorenzo > > -----Messaggio originale----- > Da: Pharo-dev [mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di Sven > Van Caekenberghe > Inviato: mercoledÃ¬ 14 gennaio 2015 16:16 > A: Pharo Development List > Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-dev] Finish one thing today > > > > On 14 Jan 2015, at 15:12, Pablo Estefo <pestefo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Wow... powerful message > > +1 > > > On 14 January 2015 at 10:32, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> > wrote: > > This is nice: > > > > http://finishonethingtoday.com > > > > > > Marcus > > > > > > > >

Jan. 15, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo4] Slots can now be saved with MC

by Marcus Denker

> On 15 Jan 2015, at 13:04, Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works> wrote: > > Marcus, can you remind us where that Blog post you wrote about using slots is? A google search of âPharo Smalltalk slotsâ doesnât seem to find it, and I remember it being a great intro to what is possible. > > (Itâs worth considering tagging that post better - it should come up much higher in google search results). > There is no blog post yetâ¦ I want to actually have it finished, else I would write a post about something not workingâ¦ which would be hard. Marcus > Tim > > On 12 Jan 2015, at 14:59, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > >> >>> On 11 Jan 2015, at 18:50, Chris Muller <asqueaker(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> It has been a while since I read the paper, but my memory is that >>> Slots lets you define features and/or constraints on inst-var's. For >>> example, assigning default values or restricting the set of valid >>> values. >>> >>> This would probably be appealing for folks coming from languages like >>> Java or C++, because they're used to all of their "slots" being >>> statically typed. It does seem ironic that where those static >>> languages have been trying to move toward being more dynamic, Pharo >>> newbies would find themselves arrived at a language which is trying to >>> make something that was purely dynamic into something more static. >>> >> >> It is *possible* to implement a kind of TypedSlot, but I do not think that >> this is what people will use Slots for. And for sure there will be no TypeSlot >> by default in Pharo. >> >> For Slots there are two levels >> >> 1) having objects that describe variables instead of strings. This is very powerful >> already and will allow us to e.g. do watchpoints/breakpoitns in variables very easily >> >> This is already in Pharo3, but Pharo4 enhances the API and provides with the LinkWrapper >> slot a way to transparently hook into variable access. This will be very powerful. >> >> 2) provide a way to declare that a slot is described by a special subclass of Slot. This is what this >> change is about >> >> This is what we use Slots for are three directions: >> >> 1) active slots that announce when the are set. Replacing the whole ValueHolder stuf to some extend. >> (This is where Slots + their Meta Object Protocol allow one to implement the special variables in Tweak >> very easily. It is interesting that there, one had to copy the whole compiler and do many, many hacks. >> >> 2) Allow optimizing memory representation. E.g. look at Morph. Many flags are needed, but each takes a >> whole pinter to true of false. So we have MorphExtension. And then on top of that a property dictionary. >> With Slots, flags (sots that can only store true or false) can be realised very efficiently (31 boolean slots >> of the hierarchy map to one ivar). With a PropertySlot, one can have values that are used seldomely >> encoded in a way that they take no space. >> >> 3) Slots + Magritte. Magritte now relies of conventions and methods added to the class side. But what it >> is: meta descriptions for ivars. I think there will be something very powerful in combining Magritte and Slots. >> >> 4) Experiments. One way to see Pharo is that it is suppose to be flexible enough to allow experiments >> to be done fast and easy so we can explore many ideas easily. >> These experiments will often be just that: experiments. But some of them will be so good that they will >> turn out to be useful. >> >>> My understanding is that specifying a certain Slot-type can save the >>> need to write, i.e., initializing or validating methods. In exchange, >>> the number of concepts inherent in the language that must be learned >>> and remembered is increased. Standard Smalltalk is only about 2 or 3 >>> concepts -- sending messages and assigning pointers. Period. There's >>> something exciting about that because even Grandma can grok 2 or 3 >>> concepts. No other language is so simple. >>> >> Slots do not really increase the concepts: they just are meta objects that have the >> definition of the behaviour of assignment, turning assignment into message sends. >> >>> By introducing the implicit behaviors of slots, the number of >>> different conceptual interactions between code and the slots it >>> references increases exponentially with the number of slot-types. I >>> fear trying to explain them to Grandma will have her eyes starting to >>> glazeâ¦ >>> >> I do not see now an active slot is harder to understand than e.g. a ValueHolder. >> or a BooleanSlot should be easier to understand than doing all that explicitely? >> >> >> Marcus >> >> > >

Jan. 15, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by horrido

Wesolows' opinion may or may not be valid, I don't know. But more importantly, I don't care. The *only* thing that matters to me is whether Go compiles quickly, executes quickly, and makes it easy to write my applications. The plumbing is irrelevant to me. As long as the Go team continues to improve the performance of the language (including the runtime), I shall support Go. As a life-long C programmer, I recognize that Go delivers a far superior experience. It's even better than Python, though admittedly I have much less experience with Python. Andreas Wacknitz wrote > Am 15.01.15 16:08, schrieb horrido: >> As I've written elsewhere, I believe the TIOBE index is plain rubbish. >> Much >> of their rankings make no sense to me whatsoever. >> >> Langpop.corger.nl <http://langpop.corger.nl/> is my "go to" >> website for >> language rankings. It's not perfect, but it makes a whole lot more sense >> to >> me. >> >> Scala, Groovy, and Clojure are not "ultimate failures." Heck, they're >> doing >> at least as well as Go, my second favourite language of all time. (Go is >> red-hot in China. Go has an enviable set of "standard" libraries.) > http://dtrace.org/blogs/wesolows/2014/12/29/golang-is-trash/ > >> >> I agree that Java is our greatest foe. We are "300" against its Xerxes. >> That's why I am sanguine about Redline â we need it! >> >> >> kilon.alios wrote >>> Lets see the big picture here, if you take a look at TIOBE INDEX or >>> LANGPOP >>> or the internet at large you get a clear picture about java based >>> languages >>> . Popularity wise they have been a ultimate failure. Right now the only >>> language that is barely noticable is Scala and even Scala is nowhere >>> near >>> as popular as the less popular languages like Pascal, Delphi and Visual >>> Basic. Of course each website gives diffirent numbers but those numbers >>> are >>> just different in only few percentage units. >>> >>> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html >>> >>> http://langpop.com/ >>> >>> Hype also does not help those languages either. Take a look at Clojure , >>> one of the most overhyped languages out there not just on JVM but >>> anywhere, >>> in both websites I mentioned Clojure like Pharo does not make it even in >>> top 50. Tons of blogs post about Clojure only, tons of praise, and >>> praise >>> and praise. >>> >>> I can say about jython itself , a python implementation for the JVM and >>> ironpython which is python for .NET are barely noticable in the python >>> world with cpython gathering at least 99.9% of the attention. >>> >>> So its a really hard situation . Coding has become extremely complex and >>> demanding , coders want languages are deeply documented and come with >>> tons >>> of libraries so its very hard for new languages to kick in. Also the >>> assumption that because you love a language you will be willing to start >>> using java libraries seems to have failed miserably. These languages >>> seem >>> more appealing to java developers and java developers dont seem willing >>> to >>> abandon Java any time soon. >>> >>> So as always Java death has been greatly exaggerated. >>> >>> The situation for Javascript based languages is even worse. >>> >>> So frankly what has happened with Redline is pretty normal. >>> >>> On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 2:36 AM, Craig Latta < >>> craig@ >>> > wrote: >>> >>>>> Shaking the hive can certainly have a positive outcome, but you can >>>>> also get you bitten. :) >>>> Sure, and shaking the hive too rarely will get you starved. >>>> >>>> >>>> -C >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Craig Latta >>>> netjam.org >>>> +31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok) >>>> + 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS) >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> View this message in context: >> http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4799716.html >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at >> Nabble.com. >> -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4799756.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Jan. 15, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

It is not sarcasm or a race. I was just pointing out the (obvious) fact that there is a huge difference in scale. (And even then, Pharo, being the most successful Smalltalk, is pretty small). And I was saying so in the context of the questions 'What should we promote ?' or 'Was it actually good or a success to have that mentioned in InfoWorld ?'. Now I am going back to work on Pharo. > On 15 Jan 2015, at 16:59, Sebastian Sastre <sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com> wrote: > > Well.. Iâve cared to talk with James before making this kind of assumptions or listening that sarcasm. > > Those 20 commits are in the stable repo, not dev so the commit race doesnât say much. > > Itâs not ready to big time promotion but turns out Redline Smalltalk development is doing fine in moving towards 1.0 and its plans of having one release per year. > > > >> On Jan 15, 2015, at 1:06 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >> >> Yes, it is very alive: 20 commits in year or so. >> >> Pharo 4 has about 1700 in about the same time (https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core) And that is just one silly, inaccurate metric. >> >> My point is, there are a couple of great Smalltalk implementations that contain an incredible number of man-years of effort in their images (the best being Pharo of course, but I am biased ;-), we can only achieve a high quality platform by working together. The number of different competences needed to successfully build a *COMPLETE* software platform can *NEVER* be achieved by 'a couple of guys' let alone one individual. >> >> Now, it is not that they can not do so, of course they can, we need wild and crazy ideas and research, but it is just wrong to see such experiments as what should be promoted now. >> >> IMHO, of course. >> >>> On 15 Jan 2015, at 15:19, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Actually, Redline is quite alive. There's a brand new repo: >>> https://github.com/jamesladd/stc <https://github.com/jamesladd/stc> >>> >>> James just hasn't gotten around to normalizing all the links at his website. >>> >>> >>> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >>>> A blank. >>>> >>>> Nothing happened to this project in more than a year >>>> >>>> https://github.com/redline-smalltalk/redline-smalltalk/commits/master >>>> >>>> It is mostly vapourware and has no users. >>>> >>>> People following the links on the article will soon find out. >>>> >>>> Just sad. >>>> >>>>> On 14 Jan 2015, at 23:40, horrido < >>> >>>> horrido.hobbies@ >>> >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-sm… >>>>> <http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html> >>>>> >>>>> Note the last paragraph. Our campaign will be noticed! >>>>> >>>>> This is exactly what I was after when I started the SRP. Spread the word >>>>> about the campaign as far and wide as I could. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> View this message in context: >>>>> http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612.html >>>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at >>>>> Nabble.com. >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4799699.html >>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> >> > >

Jan. 15, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Fixing DNU binding in GT and Nautilus

by Andrei Chis

Should be Alain's repo: http://smalltalkhub.com/mc/AlainPlantec/Rubric/main/ If you do not have access I can commit the change for you. On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 5:03 PM, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)web.de> wrote: > The fix is in 4.0 446 but only for SmalltalkEditor. Where should we put > the fix for RubSmalltalkEditor? > > 2015-01-14 22:49 GMT+01:00 stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr>: > >> Thanks marcus >> >> I just open another one :( because I houtgh that my mail did go through. >> I will close it. >> >> Le 14/1/15 13:02, Marcus Denker a Ã©crit : >> >> I have opened an issue for this: >> >> >> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/14731/Fixing-DNU-binding-in-GT-and-Nautil… >> >> >> On 13 Jan 2015, at 20:11, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: >> >> Hi >> >> in nautilus method pane and GT, when I select a global variable such as >> >> SystemOrganization and press command B + N >> >> I get DNU binding. >> Apparently this DNU only happen when the name does not match any class >> substring >> Transcript or Undeclared will not raise an error because we have classes >> having name matching the expression. >> >> Fixed included. >> >> PS: I'm dead after 1h30 train delay (after giving 6 hours lecture) today. >> So this mail will be sent whenever I get connected. >> >> Stef >> <FixDNUBinding.cs> >> >> >> >> >

Jan. 15, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo4] Slots can now be saved with MC

by Tim Mackinnon

Marcus, can you remind us where that Blog post you wrote about using slots is? A google search of âPharo Smalltalk slotsâ doesnât seem to find it, and I remember it being a great intro to what is possible. (Itâs worth considering tagging that post better - it should come up much higher in google search results). Tim On 12 Jan 2015, at 14:59, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > >> On 11 Jan 2015, at 18:50, Chris Muller <asqueaker(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> It has been a while since I read the paper, but my memory is that >> Slots lets you define features and/or constraints on inst-var's. For >> example, assigning default values or restricting the set of valid >> values. >> >> This would probably be appealing for folks coming from languages like >> Java or C++, because they're used to all of their "slots" being >> statically typed. It does seem ironic that where those static >> languages have been trying to move toward being more dynamic, Pharo >> newbies would find themselves arrived at a language which is trying to >> make something that was purely dynamic into something more static. >> > > It is *possible* to implement a kind of TypedSlot, but I do not think that > this is what people will use Slots for. And for sure there will be no TypeSlot > by default in Pharo. > > For Slots there are two levels > > 1) having objects that describe variables instead of strings. This is very powerful > already and will allow us to e.g. do watchpoints/breakpoitns in variables very easily > > This is already in Pharo3, but Pharo4 enhances the API and provides with the LinkWrapper > slot a way to transparently hook into variable access. This will be very powerful. > > 2) provide a way to declare that a slot is described by a special subclass of Slot. This is what this > change is about > > This is what we use Slots for are three directions: > > 1) active slots that announce when the are set. Replacing the whole ValueHolder stuf to some extend. > (This is where Slots + their Meta Object Protocol allow one to implement the special variables in Tweak > very easily. It is interesting that there, one had to copy the whole compiler and do many, many hacks. > > 2) Allow optimizing memory representation. E.g. look at Morph. Many flags are needed, but each takes a > whole pinter to true of false. So we have MorphExtension. And then on top of that a property dictionary. > With Slots, flags (sots that can only store true or false) can be realised very efficiently (31 boolean slots > of the hierarchy map to one ivar). With a PropertySlot, one can have values that are used seldomely > encoded in a way that they take no space. > > 3) Slots + Magritte. Magritte now relies of conventions and methods added to the class side. But what it > is: meta descriptions for ivars. I think there will be something very powerful in combining Magritte and Slots. > > 4) Experiments. One way to see Pharo is that it is suppose to be flexible enough to allow experiments > to be done fast and easy so we can explore many ideas easily. > These experiments will often be just that: experiments. But some of them will be so good that they will > turn out to be useful. > >> My understanding is that specifying a certain Slot-type can save the >> need to write, i.e., initializing or validating methods. In exchange, >> the number of concepts inherent in the language that must be learned >> and remembered is increased. Standard Smalltalk is only about 2 or 3 >> concepts -- sending messages and assigning pointers. Period. There's >> something exciting about that because even Grandma can grok 2 or 3 >> concepts. No other language is so simple. >> > Slots do not really increase the concepts: they just are meta objects that have the > definition of the behaviour of assignment, turning assignment into message sends. > >> By introducing the implicit behaviors of slots, the number of >> different conceptual interactions between code and the slots it >> references increases exponentially with the number of slot-types. I >> fear trying to explain them to Grandma will have her eyes starting to >> glazeâ¦ >> > I do not see now an active slot is harder to understand than e.g. a ValueHolder. > or a BooleanSlot should be easier to understand than doing all that explicitely? > > > Marcus > >

Jan. 15, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Fixing DNU binding in GT and Nautilus

by Nicolai Hess

The fix is in 4.0 446 but only for SmalltalkEditor. Where should we put the fix for RubSmalltalkEditor? 2015-01-14 22:49 GMT+01:00 stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr>: > Thanks marcus > > I just open another one :( because I houtgh that my mail did go through. I > will close it. > > Le 14/1/15 13:02, Marcus Denker a Ã©crit : > > I have opened an issue for this: > > > https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/14731/Fixing-DNU-binding-in-GT-and-Nautil… > > > On 13 Jan 2015, at 20:11, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > > Hi > > in nautilus method pane and GT, when I select a global variable such as > > SystemOrganization and press command B + N > > I get DNU binding. > Apparently this DNU only happen when the name does not match any class > substring > Transcript or Undeclared will not raise an error because we have classes > having name matching the expression. > > Fixed included. > > PS: I'm dead after 1h30 train delay (after giving 6 hours lecture) today. > So this mail will be sent whenever I get connected. > > Stef > <FixDNUBinding.cs> > > > >

Jan. 15, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by Sebastian Sastre

Well.. Iâve cared to talk with James before making this kind of assumptions or listening that sarcasm. Those 20 commits are in the stable repo, not dev so the commit race doesnât say much. Itâs not ready to big time promotion but turns out Redline Smalltalk development is doing fine in moving towards 1.0 and its plans of having one release per year. > On Jan 15, 2015, at 1:06 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > Yes, it is very alive: 20 commits in year or so. > > Pharo 4 has about 1700 in about the same time (https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core) And that is just one silly, inaccurate metric. > > My point is, there are a couple of great Smalltalk implementations that contain an incredible number of man-years of effort in their images (the best being Pharo of course, but I am biased ;-), we can only achieve a high quality platform by working together. The number of different competences needed to successfully build a *COMPLETE* software platform can *NEVER* be achieved by 'a couple of guys' let alone one individual. > > Now, it is not that they can not do so, of course they can, we need wild and crazy ideas and research, but it is just wrong to see such experiments as what should be promoted now. > > IMHO, of course. > >> On 15 Jan 2015, at 15:19, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Actually, Redline is quite alive. There's a brand new repo: >> https://github.com/jamesladd/stc <https://github.com/jamesladd/stc> >> >> James just hasn't gotten around to normalizing all the links at his website. >> >> >> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >>> A blank. >>> >>> Nothing happened to this project in more than a year >>> >>> https://github.com/redline-smalltalk/redline-smalltalk/commits/master >>> >>> It is mostly vapourware and has no users. >>> >>> People following the links on the article will soon find out. >>> >>> Just sad. >>> >>>> On 14 Jan 2015, at 23:40, horrido < >> >>> horrido.hobbies@ >> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-sm… >>>> <http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html> >>>> >>>> Note the last paragraph. Our campaign will be noticed! >>>> >>>> This is exactly what I was after when I started the SRP. Spread the word >>>> about the campaign as far and wide as I could. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> View this message in context: >>>> http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612.html >>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at >>>> Nabble.com. >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4799699.html >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > >

Jan. 15, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Hosting the Pharo VM on MirageOS

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 15 Jan 2015, at 16:43, Joerg Beekmann, DeepCove Labs <joerg(a)deepcovelabs.com> wrote: > > My implicit assumption was that these VM would be designed for running headless web-services on smaller EC2 instances. Not that it would not be good to work out some of the ideas mentioned in this thread, but what you are mentioning above is perfectly possible today and is being done by many people on this list. For web apps and web services, networking and persistent storage (some form of database) are the main bottlenecks.

Jan. 15, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by Serge Stinckwich

On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > I wonder if it would make sense to add a "Smalltalk-talk" mailing list... > I am sure ESUG could host that. ;-) There was a comp.smalltalk.advocacy groups in the old days of newsgroups, but nobody seems to use it anymore: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/comp.lang.smalltalk.advocacy Regards, -- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/

Jan. 15, 2015