January 2014 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Punishment as an educational method

by Igor Stasenko

On 10 January 2014 11:37, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > You know what is bad ? Simplifiications and Generalisations. > > The only thing that is predictable about humans is their unpredictability. > Education is an extremely complex subject because humans are extremely > complex in the way they think and feel. For example I have a phobia for > dentists, yet never in my life I felt extreme pain on the chair of a > dentists. I had almost panic attacks because I had to remove an impacted > second horizontal wisdom tooth, took me 6 months to find the courage to do > it and the experience was more than ok. On the other hand I removed a cyst > on my throat , the size of a small marble ball, the local aneasthesia did > not work and i felt load of pain (felt every cut by the surgeon for 45 > minutes) yet , I was ok with it and never worried or afraid at all. > > Educations is based on this extremely complex organ called "brain", that > has scientists baffled about the exact way it works even with todays > technology. I also read psychology from time to time, I am especially > interested on cognitive psychology and as you would expect its an > extremely complex science with tons of experimental data and theories that > barely touch human thinking and feeling. > > The way I see it education is still in stone age, its clear that > educational systems around the world fail spectacularly into motivating > people to learn and find their true calling. As it is education is not able > to treat people taking into their account their differences in the way they > think and feel. > > But I would not let my daughter touch fire to learn why it should not > touch fire, I would rather sit down and explain her and motivate her into > thinking logically. > Keep trying. But when you find that your daughter laughs at you as someone dumb and cheating behind your back when you can't see her, you'll going to remember this discussion. Also, teach her that any logical conclusions which not backed by physical evidence worth nothing and having equal chance to be true of false. You cannot earn trust by simply saying: listen to what i saying because i know. Going this way is asking for disaster. You can put soft pillows everywhere in your house, so in case if someone will fall, he won't be hurt.. but the problem is outside: there is no soft pillows outside, and raising children in such soft-pillowed environment is very bad, because then they are completely unprepared for real life, which is harsh, crude and violent at times. You know, sometimes you have to fall on something hard, to realize that you have to be careful. Again kids: this happens a lot to kids once they learn how to stand and then walk and then run.. they fall constantly, hurt themselves, and this is the way they learn what moves are safe and what could lead to bad effects. And again, you can spend years explaining to your kid how to walk, how to move legs and how to run.. So, good luck with teaching kid how to walk, without letting kid fall and hurt oneself. Or else she may end up not having more than the intelligent of a worm. > Cause even worm if put into a electrified labyrinth and each time it passes > through a corridor is "punished" with touching the electrical fence , it > learns which is the correct way to go. Is this how you want to treat people > and education ? > > Again extreme side of spectrum. Haven't you thought that maybe it is because worms are so primitive, that this is the only way to "teach" them or stimulate their "intelligence"? While, in case of humans, there's a lot more ways to teach. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Jan. 10, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] NativeBoost unloading?

by Igor Stasenko

On 10 January 2014 11:48, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek(a)gmail.com> wrote: > NativeBoost and AsmJit are quite problematic to unload. > problematic, why? > I want to ask if we want to be able to do that. > Definitely. > I know that in future they should play more important role but they > support only one architecture so it seems reasonable to me to do not > declare them currently as kernel packages (only the default ones) and have > a configuration with an ability to unload them. > > I am not sure, to me FFI is a core feature which you would want to have in the system. Which makes me think it should belong to if not kernel, but to some basic set of packages available in system. > Cheers, > -- Pavel > > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Jan. 10, 2014

NativeBoost unloading?

by Pavel Krivanek

NativeBoost and AsmJit are quite problematic to unload. I want to ask if we want to be able to do that. I know that in future they should play more important role but they support only one architecture so it seems reasonable to me to do not declare them currently as kernel packages (only the default ones) and have a configuration with an ability to unload them. Cheers, -- Pavel

Jan. 10, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Punishment as an educational method

by kilon alios

You know what is bad ? Simplifiications and Generalisations. The only thing that is predictable about humans is their unpredictability. Education is an extremely complex subject because humans are extremely complex in the way they think and feel. For example I have a phobia for dentists, yet never in my life I felt extreme pain on the chair of a dentists. I had almost panic attacks because I had to remove an impacted second horizontal wisdom tooth, took me 6 months to find the courage to do it and the experience was more than ok. On the other hand I removed a cyst on my throat , the size of a small marble ball, the local aneasthesia did not work and i felt load of pain (felt every cut by the surgeon for 45 minutes) yet , I was ok with it and never worried or afraid at all. Educations is based on this extremely complex organ called "brain", that has scientists baffled about the exact way it works even with todays technology. I also read psychology from time to time, I am especially interested on cognitive psychology and as you would expect its an extremely complex science with tons of experimental data and theories that barely touch human thinking and feeling. The way I see it education is still in stone age, its clear that educational systems around the world fail spectacularly into motivating people to learn and find their true calling. As it is education is not able to treat people taking into their account their differences in the way they think and feel. But I would not let my daughter touch fire to learn why it should not touch fire, I would rather sit down and explain her and motivate her into thinking logically. Or else she may end up not having more than the intelligent of a worm. Cause even worm if put into a electrified labyrinth and each time it passes through a corridor is "punished" with touching the electrical fence , it learns which is the correct way to go. Is this how you want to treat people and education ? On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 12:10 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On 10 January 2014 10:41, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> I agree this is an excellent way to educate people at worse they can >> become pyromaniacs. >> >> >> There's sheer number of people who like to hurt themselves.. i doubt > there's anything you can do about it and (re)educate them that this is bad. > Exceptions only confirm the rule :) > > > > >> On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 11:36 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 9 January 2014 22:30, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >>> >>>> I don't think Igor meant punishment as a tool, but rather experience >>>> something negative for yourself. >>>> >>>> right.. punishment as consequence of your own deeds, but not punishment >>> as a tool, >>> which you using against someone. >>> >>> >>>> I am sure that if you think back at your own development, there were >>>> instances where you did not listen to adults warning you and only learned >>>> certain things the hard way. >>>> >>>> why hard way? i think it is most easy way: you can explain for years to >>> people why they have to be careful with fire.. instead of letting them to >>> verify it and very fast and easy get to the same conclusion. >>> >>> >>> >>>> Anyway, we're getting way off topic ;-) >>>> >>>> On 09 Jan 2014, at 22:25, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: >>>> >>>> > Igor, >>>> > >>>> > The way you describe the role of punishment in education is not in >>>> line with current research. Most learning happens trough copying the >>>> behavior of others, and punishment has a number of negative consequences on >>>> character development, making it a non-suitable instrument. You might want >>>> to take a look at the work done by Marshall Rosenberg on non-violent >>>> communication. >>>> > >>>> > Stephan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Best regards, >>> Igor Stasenko. >>> >> >> > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. >

Jan. 10, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Punishment as an educational method

by Goubier Thierry

Le 10/01/2014 11:18, Igor Stasenko a Ã©crit : > > > > On 10 January 2014 10:47, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr > <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote: > > > > Le 10/01/2014 10:41, kilon alios a Ã©crit : > > I agree this is an excellent way to educate people at worse they can > become pyromaniacs. > > > And in a case I know, the fire burn was so high the kid lost two > fingers for life and all memories of the incident :( > > Well, if this is the analogy we're working with, I'll keep that > dialog (even if I find it quite annoying)... The implications of the > reverse attitude has just freaked me off. > > Taking extreme sides of a spectrum does not invalidates the rule. > You want to prevent such accidents from happening, then you should be > around to have a controlled experiment and be able to always abort it if > something will go wrong. > That's is your responsibility as parent. Same rule applies to all > teachers, trainers and instructors... I wonder why i should state such > trivialities, like nobody else knowing them. And we are back at the point. If you don't provide or ensure an controlled experiment, then the dialog stays. And of course I have to push at the extrem of your analogy to see where you stand :) Thierry -- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95

Jan. 10, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Punishment as an educational method

by Igor Stasenko

On 10 January 2014 10:47, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr> wrote: > > > Le 10/01/2014 10:41, kilon alios a Ã©crit : > > I agree this is an excellent way to educate people at worse they can >> become pyromaniacs. >> > > And in a case I know, the fire burn was so high the kid lost two fingers > for life and all memories of the incident :( > > Well, if this is the analogy we're working with, I'll keep that dialog > (even if I find it quite annoying)... The implications of the reverse > attitude has just freaked me off. > > Taking extreme sides of a spectrum does not invalidates the rule. You want to prevent such accidents from happening, then you should be around to have a controlled experiment and be able to always abort it if something will go wrong. That's is your responsibility as parent. Same rule applies to all teachers, trainers and instructors... I wonder why i should state such trivialities, like nobody else knowing them. > Thierry > > On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 11:36 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com >> <mailto:siguctua@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> On 9 January 2014 22:30, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu >> <mailto:sven@stfx.eu>> wrote: >> >> I don't think Igor meant punishment as a tool, but rather >> experience something negative for yourself. >> >> right.. punishment as consequence of your own deeds, but not >> punishment as a tool, >> which you using against someone. >> >> I am sure that if you think back at your own development, there >> were instances where you did not listen to adults warning you >> and only learned certain things the hard way. >> >> why hard way? i think it is most easy way: you can explain for years >> to people why they have to be careful with fire.. instead of letting >> them to verify it and very fast and easy get to the same conclusion. >> >> Anyway, we're getting way off topic ;-) >> >> On 09 Jan 2014, at 22:25, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl >> <mailto:stephan@stack.nl>> wrote: >> >> > Igor, >> > >> > The way you describe the role of punishment in education is >> not in line with current research. Most learning happens trough >> copying the behavior of others, and punishment has a number of >> negative consequences on character development, making it a >> non-suitable instrument. You might want to take a look at the >> work done by Marshall Rosenberg on non-violent communication. >> > >> > Stephan >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko. >> >> >> > -- > Thierry Goubier > CEA list > Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s > 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex > France > Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95 > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Jan. 10, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Punishment as an educational method

by Igor Stasenko

On 10 January 2014 10:41, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I agree this is an excellent way to educate people at worse they can > become pyromaniacs. > > > There's sheer number of people who like to hurt themselves.. i doubt there's anything you can do about it and (re)educate them that this is bad. Exceptions only confirm the rule :) > On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 11:36 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>wrote: > >> >> >> >> On 9 January 2014 22:30, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >> >>> I don't think Igor meant punishment as a tool, but rather experience >>> something negative for yourself. >>> >>> right.. punishment as consequence of your own deeds, but not punishment >> as a tool, >> which you using against someone. >> >> >>> I am sure that if you think back at your own development, there were >>> instances where you did not listen to adults warning you and only learned >>> certain things the hard way. >>> >>> why hard way? i think it is most easy way: you can explain for years to >> people why they have to be careful with fire.. instead of letting them to >> verify it and very fast and easy get to the same conclusion. >> >> >> >>> Anyway, we're getting way off topic ;-) >>> >>> On 09 Jan 2014, at 22:25, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: >>> >>> > Igor, >>> > >>> > The way you describe the role of punishment in education is not in >>> line with current research. Most learning happens trough copying the >>> behavior of others, and punishment has a number of negative consequences on >>> character development, making it a non-suitable instrument. You might want >>> to take a look at the work done by Marshall Rosenberg on non-violent >>> communication. >>> > >>> > Stephan >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko. >> > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Jan. 10, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Punishment as an educational method

by phil＠highoctane.be

I never learned as much as from my mistakes. And some where heavy, leading to the most learning. "Experience is a good teacher. Her fees are high tough" But inflicting punishment doesn't work. Cats and dogs training is proof. Positive reinforcment works. So does patience and consistency with the rules. On Friday, January 10, 2014, kilon alios wrote: > I agree this is an excellent way to educate people at worse they can > become pyromaniacs. > > > On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 11:36 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'siguctua(a)gmail.com');> > > wrote: > >> >> >> >> On 9 January 2014 22:30, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'sven(a)stfx.eu');> >> > wrote: >> >>> I don't think Igor meant punishment as a tool, but rather experience >>> something negative for yourself. >>> >>> right.. punishment as consequence of your own deeds, but not punishment >> as a tool, >> which you using against someone. >> >> >>> I am sure that if you think back at your own development, there were >>> instances where you did not listen to adults warning you and only learned >>> certain things the hard way. >>> >>> why hard way? i think it is most easy way: you can explain for years to >> people why they have to be careful with fire.. instead of letting them to >> verify it and very fast and easy get to the same conclusion. >> >> >> >>> Anyway, we're getting way off topic ;-) >>> >>> On 09 Jan 2014, at 22:25, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'stephan(a)stack.nl');>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Igor, >>> > >>> > The way you describe the role of punishment in education is not in >>> line with current research. Most learning happens trough copying the >>> behavior of others, and punishment has a number of negative consequences on >>> character development, making it a non-suitable instrument. You might want >>> to take a look at the work done by Marshall Rosenberg on non-violent >>> communication. >>> > >>> > Stephan >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko. >> > > -- --- Philippe Back Dramatic Performance Improvements Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail:phil@highoctane.be | Web: http://philippeback.eu Blog: http://philippeback.be | Twitter: @philippeback Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/philippeback/videos High Octane SPRL rue cour Boisacq 101 | 1301 Bierges | Belgium Pharo Consortium Member - http://consortium.pharo.org/ Featured on the Software Process and Measurement Cast - http://spamcast.libsyn.com Sparx Systems Enterprise Architect and Ability Engineering EADocX Value Added Reseller

Jan. 10, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Punishment as an educational method

by Goubier Thierry

Le 10/01/2014 10:41, kilon alios a Ã©crit : > I agree this is an excellent way to educate people at worse they can > become pyromaniacs. And in a case I know, the fire burn was so high the kid lost two fingers for life and all memories of the incident :( Well, if this is the analogy we're working with, I'll keep that dialog (even if I find it quite annoying)... The implications of the reverse attitude has just freaked me off. Thierry > On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 11:36 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com > <mailto:siguctua@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > > On 9 January 2014 22:30, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu > <mailto:sven@stfx.eu>> wrote: > > I don't think Igor meant punishment as a tool, but rather > experience something negative for yourself. > > right.. punishment as consequence of your own deeds, but not > punishment as a tool, > which you using against someone. > > I am sure that if you think back at your own development, there > were instances where you did not listen to adults warning you > and only learned certain things the hard way. > > why hard way? i think it is most easy way: you can explain for years > to people why they have to be careful with fire.. instead of letting > them to verify it and very fast and easy get to the same conclusion. > > Anyway, we're getting way off topic ;-) > > On 09 Jan 2014, at 22:25, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl > <mailto:stephan@stack.nl>> wrote: > > > Igor, > > > > The way you describe the role of punishment in education is > not in line with current research. Most learning happens trough > copying the behavior of others, and punishment has a number of > negative consequences on character development, making it a > non-suitable instrument. You might want to take a look at the > work done by Marshall Rosenberg on non-violent communication. > > > > Stephan > > > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. > > -- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95

Jan. 10, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Punishment as an educational method

by kilon alios

I agree this is an excellent way to educate people at worse they can become pyromaniacs. On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 11:36 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On 9 January 2014 22:30, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > >> I don't think Igor meant punishment as a tool, but rather experience >> something negative for yourself. >> >> right.. punishment as consequence of your own deeds, but not punishment > as a tool, > which you using against someone. > > >> I am sure that if you think back at your own development, there were >> instances where you did not listen to adults warning you and only learned >> certain things the hard way. >> >> why hard way? i think it is most easy way: you can explain for years to > people why they have to be careful with fire.. instead of letting them to > verify it and very fast and easy get to the same conclusion. > > > >> Anyway, we're getting way off topic ;-) >> >> On 09 Jan 2014, at 22:25, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: >> >> > Igor, >> > >> > The way you describe the role of punishment in education is not in line >> with current research. Most learning happens trough copying the behavior of >> others, and punishment has a number of negative consequences on character >> development, making it a non-suitable instrument. You might want to take a >> look at the work done by Marshall Rosenberg on non-violent communication. >> > >> > Stephan >> >> >> > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. >

Jan. 10, 2014