April 2013 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

[Pharo-project] Big thanks for the organization of the Pharo Conf and MooseDay

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Thanks again to Doru and SCG because the pharo conf was really nice and the moose day too. Stef

April 5, 2013

[Pharo-project] ConfigurationOf

by roberto.minelli＠usi.ch

Hi, I build the ConfigurationOf for my current project and it works fine, but I have some doubts. My project has dependencies on two other projects, namely Spy and Fuel. In my ConfigurationOf I'm loading these two projects before fetching my code. The point is that, for example, I'm loading Fuel even if it is already loaded in the current image and the same for Spy. Could you help me in creating a ConfigurationOf which only loads those projects if not already in the image and eventually only updates them to the last version? Thanks in advance, R P.s. Here (http://ws.stfx.eu/QOMGC86FZTG) is my current baseline for the ConfigurationOf.

April 5, 2013

Re: [Pharo-project] Issue 10219: Completion: enter on accept awkwardness

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

On 05 Apr 2013, at 11:45, "phil(a)highoctane.be" <phil(a)highoctane.be> wrote: > Sven, > > Indeed, Pharo 2.0 is really interesting. > > Nautilus and stuff like that are really going in the right directions. > > Now, would there be a succinct explanation on what makes the most sense for completion? The spotlight box is really getting on my nerves and I can't figure out why and it worked better on 1.4. > > I am Cmd-Clicking on classes and methods as it is easier for me to now start typing in a workspace and navigate from there due to Spotlight not working well. > > What is the behavior to expect from Spotlight? I may be doing things wrong by just typing words and then enterâ¦ Phil, I am not sure what you mean by not working well, I use it all the time. What sometimes bothers me is that it is hard to select just the class Time for example (it seems to be too short and not specific enough), on the other hand for most long/more specific class names, even ConfigurationOf.. it works well. But I learned long ago to not always fight systems and to adapt a bit myself. I trained myself to type ESC to get out of completion, for example. I would be happy with a real solution, it is just a hard design problem, with many opinions. Sven > Phil > > > 2013/4/5 Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> > > On 04 Apr 2013, at 19:02, Diego Lont <diego.lont(a)delware.nl> wrote: > > >> On 4 April 2013 15:45, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >>> really? > >>> please, add an issue in the tracker and submit a slice, as everybody else. > >>> > >> calm down, we're just discussing here. > >> I provided code here intentionally for nay-sayers like you to try it > >> and to check if it not breaks > >> something else (your workflow). > > > > Esteban, > > > > Having a new Browser in Pharo 2.0 is a big change. Everyone needs to get used to it. And I agree it is probably a good thing. But â¦ there are some things that worked better in OB that I don't want to loose. There are a lot of people annoyed by how it works nowâ¦. but I think the mailing list is about exchanging arguments not about deciding. So I do not like that you try to end the discussion by shouting: the defaults will not change. So here I will add a new argument. > > > > Your argument about other languages is a valid point, but only holds if Smalltalk is similar as other languages. Why does this "enter" annoys me? Because in some cases it replaces my code by garbage. At least when I type a method invocation that does not exist yet, it replaces it by an existing method. And this is repeatable. So when you go back (using backspace and typing it again, because it also adds before the things I typed) and the press enter again, it does the same replacement. So there is a difference here between smalltalk and other languages. When I do test-driven development (that I do a lot), I first write my test, invoking a lot of methods that do not exist yet. I do not do this in another language, because my environment isn't good enough then. > > I feel that we are confusing lots of things. > > This is not a discussion about the browser or the IDE, it is about completion. > And not just about which key does what but also about complex interactions in specific situations. > > Pharo 2.0 is out, Nautilus is the default browser, a massive amount of work went into cleaning and getting a workable completion system, choices were made - you/we basically have to live with that. > > There are options in Settings for some tuning, and we will continue to improve, absolutely. We have to discuss and iterate. > > Please do not underestimate the amount of work done to get 2.0 where it is now. > > Sven > > -- > Sven Van Caekenberghe > Proudly supporting Pharo > http://pharo.org > http://association.pharo.org > http://consortium.pharo.org > > > > > >

April 5, 2013

Re: [Pharo-project] Issue 10219: Completion: enter on accept awkwardness

by Esteban Lorenzano

Oh, Spotlight is another victim of the code completion lack of accurate answers... and yes, I agree: both code completion and spotlight in consequence were working better in 1.4. Esteban On Apr 5, 2013, at 11:45 AM, "phil(a)highoctane.be" <phil(a)highoctane.be> wrote: > Sven, > > Indeed, Pharo 2.0 is really interesting. > > Nautilus and stuff like that are really going in the right directions. > > Now, would there be a succinct explanation on what makes the most sense for completion? The spotlight box is really getting on my nerves and I can't figure out why and it worked better on 1.4. > > I am Cmd-Clicking on classes and methods as it is easier for me to now start typing in a workspace and navigate from there due to Spotlight not working well. > > What is the behavior to expect from Spotlight? I may be doing things wrong by just typing words and then enter... > > Phil > > > 2013/4/5 Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> > > On 04 Apr 2013, at 19:02, Diego Lont <diego.lont(a)delware.nl> wrote: > > >> On 4 April 2013 15:45, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >>> really? > >>> please, add an issue in the tracker and submit a slice, as everybody else. > >>> > >> calm down, we're just discussing here. > >> I provided code here intentionally for nay-sayers like you to try it > >> and to check if it not breaks > >> something else (your workflow). > > > > Esteban, > > > > Having a new Browser in Pharo 2.0 is a big change. Everyone needs to get used to it. And I agree it is probably a good thing. But â¦ there are some things that worked better in OB that I don't want to loose. There are a lot of people annoyed by how it works nowâ¦. but I think the mailing list is about exchanging arguments not about deciding. So I do not like that you try to end the discussion by shouting: the defaults will not change. So here I will add a new argument. > > > > Your argument about other languages is a valid point, but only holds if Smalltalk is similar as other languages. Why does this "enter" annoys me? Because in some cases it replaces my code by garbage. At least when I type a method invocation that does not exist yet, it replaces it by an existing method. And this is repeatable. So when you go back (using backspace and typing it again, because it also adds before the things I typed) and the press enter again, it does the same replacement. So there is a difference here between smalltalk and other languages. When I do test-driven development (that I do a lot), I first write my test, invoking a lot of methods that do not exist yet. I do not do this in another language, because my environment isn't good enough then. > > I feel that we are confusing lots of things. > > This is not a discussion about the browser or the IDE, it is about completion. > And not just about which key does what but also about complex interactions in specific situations. > > Pharo 2.0 is out, Nautilus is the default browser, a massive amount of work went into cleaning and getting a workable completion system, choices were made - you/we basically have to live with that. > > There are options in Settings for some tuning, and we will continue to improve, absolutely. We have to discuss and iterate. > > Please do not underestimate the amount of work done to get 2.0 where it is now. > > Sven > > -- > Sven Van Caekenberghe > Proudly supporting Pharo > http://pharo.org > http://association.pharo.org > http://consortium.pharo.org > > > > > >

April 5, 2013

Re: [Pharo-project] Issue 10219: Completion: enter on accept awkwardness

by phil＠highoctane.be

Sven, Indeed, Pharo 2.0 is really interesting. Nautilus and stuff like that are really going in the right directions. Now, would there be a succinct explanation on what makes the most sense for completion? The spotlight box is really getting on my nerves and I can't figure out why and it worked better on 1.4. I am Cmd-Clicking on classes and methods as it is easier for me to now start typing in a workspace and navigate from there due to Spotlight not working well. What is the behavior to expect from Spotlight? I may be doing things wrong by just typing words and then enter... Phil 2013/4/5 Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> > > On 04 Apr 2013, at 19:02, Diego Lont <diego.lont(a)delware.nl> wrote: > > >> On 4 April 2013 15:45, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >>> really? > >>> please, add an issue in the tracker and submit a slice, as everybody > else. > >>> > >> calm down, we're just discussing here. > >> I provided code here intentionally for nay-sayers like you to try it > >> and to check if it not breaks > >> something else (your workflow). > > > > Esteban, > > > > Having a new Browser in Pharo 2.0 is a big change. Everyone needs to get > used to it. And I agree it is probably a good thing. But â¦ there are some > things that worked better in OB that I don't want to loose. There are a lot > of people annoyed by how it works nowâ¦. but I think the mailing list is > about exchanging arguments not about deciding. So I do not like that you > try to end the discussion by shouting: the defaults will not change. So > here I will add a new argument. > > > > Your argument about other languages is a valid point, but only holds if > Smalltalk is similar as other languages. Why does this "enter" annoys me? > Because in some cases it replaces my code by garbage. At least when I type > a method invocation that does not exist yet, it replaces it by an existing > method. And this is repeatable. So when you go back (using backspace and > typing it again, because it also adds before the things I typed) and the > press enter again, it does the same replacement. So there is a difference > here between smalltalk and other languages. When I do test-driven > development (that I do a lot), I first write my test, invoking a lot of > methods that do not exist yet. I do not do this in another language, > because my environment isn't good enough then. > > I feel that we are confusing lots of things. > > This is not a discussion about the browser or the IDE, it is about > completion. > And not just about which key does what but also about complex interactions > in specific situations. > > Pharo 2.0 is out, Nautilus is the default browser, a massive amount of > work went into cleaning and getting a workable completion system, choices > were made - you/we basically have to live with that. > > There are options in Settings for some tuning, and we will continue to > improve, absolutely. We have to discuss and iterate. > > Please do not underestimate the amount of work done to get 2.0 where it is > now. > > Sven > > -- > Sven Van Caekenberghe > Proudly supporting Pharo > http://pharo.org > http://association.pharo.org > http://consortium.pharo.org > > > > > >

April 5, 2013

Re: [Pharo-project] Issue 10219: Completion: enter on accept awkwardness

by Stephan Eggermont

We seem to have a regression. In early may 2011 this was resolved. Tudor Girba wrote >This is not great at all. Please read this before going forward. > >We had this in OCompletion before and then it got changed to not use CR for a reason. The problem is when using fluent APIs that are best read when written on multiple lines. For example, >suppose that I want to type something like this in Glamour: > >... > a tree > display: [ ... ] > >After typing "a tree", the first proposed item is "treeLayout" (see the attached picture). If I press enter to go to the next line "tree" is replaced with "treeLayout" and this is not the behavior I want. > >The problem is that CR has a useful meaning when typing a piece of text and this makes it not good as a completion character.Tab on the other hand, is only used in Smalltalk at the beginning of an >empty line so there is no danger of overloading its functionality in the middle of a text. > > >Now, if you insist, I still believe there is a place for CR. Completion has two modes: >1. one in which I write and the completion offers me something, and >2. one in which I am after I press the down arrow to select some completion item. > >For 1. you do not want to have CR as a completion character. For 2. it is probably ok because you enter explicitly in a temporary mode and thus you are not typing anymore and this will not induce >the conflict. and Igor refined that to: >i agree, a completion should be non-intrusive (by default it should >handle enter as carriage return, >but if you selected an item (using up/down keys), then it should paste >the selection instead). >But as i said, i having a habit to use enter, when i see a popup menu >and hilighted menu item selected instead of tab. Stephan

April 5, 2013

Re: [Pharo-project] Issue 10219: Completion: enter on accept awkwardness

by Goubier Thierry

Le 04/04/2013 15:45, Esteban Lorenzano a Ã©crit : > > On Apr 4, 2013, at 12:00 PM, Diego Lont <diego.lont(a)delware.nl> wrote: >> >> So I also want the defaults changed: tab should complete my smalltalk code, not enter. >> > > defaults will not change... you will need to change your personal settings (as described some mails before) > > Esteban I'm one of the guys which change his personal settings on any new 2.0 image... To turn auto completion off. I use auto-completion on OpenOffice, on Geany when programming in C, and on Pharo 1.4, but not on 2.0; the way it negatively interacts with my keystrokes isn't worth the gain. But hey, I know how to change my settings :) Thierry -- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95

April 5, 2013

Re: [Pharo-project] Issue 10219: Completion: enter on accept awkwardness

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

On 05 Apr 2013, at 11:20, Diego Lont <diego.lont(a)delware.nl> wrote: >> I feel that we are confusing lots of things. >> >> This is not a discussion about the browser or the IDE, it is about completion. >> And not just about which key does what but also about complex interactions in specific situations. >> >> Pharo 2.0 is out, Nautilus is the default browser, a massive amount of work went into cleaning and getting a workable completion system, choices were made - you/we basically have to live with that. >> >> There are options in Settings for some tuning, and we will continue to improve, absolutely. We have to discuss and iterate. >> >> Please do not underestimate the amount of work done to get 2.0 where it is now. >> >> Sven > > Sven, > > I agree that a lot of good work has been done to get 2.0 where it is now. I do not want to ignore that. And I think we all have to same goal: to make Pharo better. So when I think I have a point, I want an open discussion about this. > > On the PharoConf I said some things to Stef, and he answered: discuss this on the mailing list. Now I try to do so on the mailinglist and I get responses like: > "settings will not change" > " We did a lot of work, so do not complain" > > Please tell me, why do you think this is not worth discussing? > > Regards, > Diego Diego, Read my mail, I said: "We have to discuss and iterate." It is just that 2.0 is released, it cannot change, 2.x will never have drastic changes. 3.0 is the next line of development. To stay on the subject: I have worked with/in 2.0 for many months, maybe almost a year. Completion went through lots of iterations, there were many discussions. It is reasonably good or at least acceptable now (at some points it was completely broken). Some people worked very hard on this and I respect that enormously (they also had to deal with everybody's opinion as well as complex code). I am very confident that we can tune this a bit more to make it 'perfect'. The main issue IMHO is not so much the actual key binding, but the way to get out of the menu if you don't want to pick a suggestion (though ESC does that). It might be that Smalltalk is special here, but I doubt it. Sven -- Sven Van Caekenberghe Proudly supporting Pharo http://pharo.org http://association.pharo.org http://consortium.pharo.org

April 5, 2013

Re: [Pharo-project] Issue 10219: Completion: enter on accept awkwardness

by Esteban Lorenzano

On Apr 4, 2013, at 7:02 PM, Diego Lont <diego.lont(a)delware.nl> wrote: >> On 4 April 2013 15:45, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> really? >>> please, add an issue in the tracker and submit a slice, as everybody else. >>> >> calm down, we're just discussing here. >> I provided code here intentionally for nay-sayers like you to try it >> and to check if it not breaks >> something else (your workflow). > > Esteban, > > Having a new Browser in Pharo 2.0 is a big change. Everyone needs to get used to it. And I agree it is probably a good thing. But â¦ there are some things that worked better in OB that I don't want to loose. There are a lot of people annoyed by how it works nowâ¦. but I think the mailing list is about exchanging arguments not about deciding. So I do not like that you try to end the discussion by shouting: the defaults will not change. So here I will add a new argument. I'm not closing the discussion. I'm just pointing that the reasons why we took that decision remains more relevant than your argument. And also I'm pointing that you have the settings to adapt to your desired behavior. Finally, I also pointing that if there is something bad or a feature not present (like the coexistence of tab and enter), there is always room to improvement :) > > Your argument about other languages is a valid point, but only holds if Smalltalk is similar as other languages. Why does this "enter" annoys me? Because in some cases it replaces my code by garbage. At least when I type a method invocation that does not exist yet, it replaces it by an existing method. And this is repeatable. So when you go back (using backspace and typing it again, because it also adds before the things I typed) and the press enter again, it does the same replacement. So there is a difference here between smalltalk and other languages. When I do test-driven development (that I do a lot), I first write my test, invoking a lot of methods that do not exist yet. I do not do this in another language, because my environment isn't good enough then. A feeble argument too. We are not talking about a language but about a language's IDE (and yes, I know that Pharo, as any other smalltalk is language+IDE, and you cannot separate them). The IDE should help the developer. The defaults should help the newcomers, and the settings should be available for power users to adapt the IDE to their preferred ways to do things. So, now... I know that completion is working bad, but the "enter" issue is not the problem. I can point several other problems: 1) the most important: the answers are not accurate, and not even close. Yes, it returns symbols starting with your entry, but they are not context aware (the old completion was doing a better job by just arranging results and presenting first the latest things you entered) 2) It offers completions in bad places (like appearing after you put colon and before letting you press space) 3) Some times it changes code intead inserting it, or inserts it in bad places. 4) There are some options users desire that are not present. So... your feedback is valuable, of course, and many many times you are right. But in this case I still thing you are just wrong, and your solution is use the settings. cheers, Esteban

April 5, 2013

Re: [Pharo-project] Issue 10219: Completion: enter on accept awkwardness

by Diego Lont

> I feel that we are confusing lots of things. > > This is not a discussion about the browser or the IDE, it is about completion. > And not just about which key does what but also about complex interactions in specific situations. > > Pharo 2.0 is out, Nautilus is the default browser, a massive amount of work went into cleaning and getting a workable completion system, choices were made - you/we basically have to live with that. > > There are options in Settings for some tuning, and we will continue to improve, absolutely. We have to discuss and iterate. > > Please do not underestimate the amount of work done to get 2.0 where it is now. > > Sven Sven, I agree that a lot of good work has been done to get 2.0 where it is now. I do not want to ignore that. And I think we all have to same goal: to make Pharo better. So when I think I have a point, I want an open discussion about this. On the PharoConf I said some things to Stef, and he answered: discuss this on the mailing list. Now I try to do so on the mailinglist and I get responses like: "settings will not change" " We did a lot of work, so do not complain" Please tell me, why do you think this is not worth discussing? Regards, Diego

April 5, 2013