December 2013 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

VM Segmentation Fault on Roassal Easel

by Ronie Salgado

Hello, I'm having a segmentation fault of the VM when opening Roassal Easel on Linux Mint 15 AMD64. Here's an image that reproduces the problem: https://www.dropbox.com/s/lp54v7o3flfn5pa/pharo-easel-crash.zip Attached is the crash.dmp and the gdb stack trace. Apparently, is related to font handling in linux. Greetings, Ronie Salgado

Dec. 9, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Smalltalk in a C World

by kilon alios

very interesting I wonder whether is pharo related or how easily can be ported to Pharo. The funny thing about nativeboost is that because it has its own inline assembler it is possible to use nativeboost to debug the machine code generated by nativeboost or to be more precise AsmJit. Of course thats a manual way of doing this and less ideal than using a dedicated debugging tool but its definitely an interesting concept. I am also wondering and imagining things about Shared memory concept , where 2 apps can shared the same memory addresses and so share data and wonder how nativeboost could help there since it offer complete access to memory. But of course that are low level concept I am not familiar at all, but I would not mind messing with them at least once. It could even eliminate the need to embed pharo inside a C app. Definetly loads of ideas to explore here if one is willing to invest the time. On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 5:40 PM, <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: > kilon alios wrote: > > Sort answer is no , Pharo does not try to replace C/C++. CAD plugins are > indeed dlls and you will need C/C++ for that. I only Know Free Pascal as > another language to generate DLLs but even in that case its extra work. > > So if you look for the most direct solution then Pharo wont cut it and > probably most other programming languages. > > Theoretically of course its possible , but someone would need to > implement this to make it easy to do and currently AFAIK none has. > > Bare in mind that DLLs are strictly a C/C++ invention and definitely not > how highly dynamic languages like Pharo work so there is no direct need for > Pharo to do such thing cause it would complicate the workflow. For instance > you would not want to create a dll for pharo code when you can have an > image and live object that offer far more flexibility of code that can > modify itself even on runtime. People choose dynamic languages for the very > reason that want to avoid such complications and limitations. > > If you dont mind workarounds the then answer changes from "no" to "yes". > > You could of course create a CAD plugin that triggers pharo and pass > information to it through sockets , pipes or other ways of application > communication. Its a workaround but it works and I have seen it used in 3d > apps. For example in blender that support mainly python addons , I know of > a python addon (city generator addon) that uses Java libraries. In this > case you create a "bridge" between your CAD application and Pharo and you > make the two work together. The good news is that if Pharo crashes , it > wont crash your CAD app so that a good thing about this workaround. The bad > news is that you would be responsible to expose the CAD functionality to > Pharo meaning you will have to create a bridge between pharo and CAD. Of > course you will need to expose only the functionality that your plugin uses > to Pharo so its not as hard as it may sound. > > > To paraphrase a favorite quote "good coders invent , great coders cheat " > ;) > > So yes there definetly many roads that lead to Rome. If you are > determined to use Pharo nothing will stop you. > > About debugging nativeboost of course you can use the pharo debugger > because nativeboost commands are fully pharo compliant , meaning they are > like everything else, messages and objects. For the machine code generated > by nativeboost you can use a C debugger like gdb that could let you > disassemble the code to see whats wrong with it. > > I guess that "Native Debugger" [1] project proposed for Google Summer of > Code would have potential for seamless debugging through NativeBoost and C > library. > > [1] http://gsoc2013.esug.org/projects/native-code-debugger > > cheers -ben > > > Though usually you will just ask here and Igor that is the expert and > creator of nativeboost will reply back. He is very helpful and never turns > down a question ;) > > > > On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 8:20 PM, askoh <askoh(a)askoh.com> wrote: > >> Good that NativeBoost can do what the paper says. How does one debug Pharo >> and NativeBoost working together? Can one step in Pharo, encounter >> NativeBoost code, the step in C and return to Pharo? >> >> I would like to create addins for CAD programs (Windows for now). The CAD >> program starts and calls the addin to be part of the CAD program. User >> interactions within the CAD are passed to the addin which then drives the >> data or display in the CAD. The addin is a separate DLL or EXE but the >> user >> sees only the CAD with extra capabilities - not as distinct programs. Can >> Pharo make such an addin? >> >> Thanks, >> Aik-Siong Koh >> >> >> >> -- >> View this message in context: >> http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-in-a-C-World-tp4728217p4728573.html >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at >> Nabble.com. >> >> > >

Dec. 9, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Smalltalk in a C World

by Esteban A. Maringolo

2013/12/9 Torsten Bergmann <astares(a)gmx.de>: > Esteban wrote: >> I'd prefer ObjectConnect shutdown their website rather than having that. >> And, at certain degree the same applies to my beloved ObjectArts and >> its Dolphin masterpiece. > What a nonsense - why should they shutdown their site if it is valuable > to provide infos and new downloads to their customers? I can't shutdown anything that's not mine. And that's perfectly fine. The point is that, IMHO, for the Smalltalk community it's counterproductive. It's my opinion, I don't want you to share it :) > If you want to shut down any page that is not up-to date you may have > to shut down a big part of the internet. Nothing sells less and causes more rejection than an outdated site. Particularly if it is about programming. > But Smalltalk is (at least to me) not interesting because it is a > programming language - it is interesting because it is a dynamic object > system that is easily changeable (including metamodel and language itself). We agree on this. And that's why we're here. > And Pharo should not stop changing this object system until something new > and better comes out of it... If you want to reach broader audiences I'm 100% confident that you need not only a good product, but also good marketing assets. Though I never used it, I know the benefits of S/MT because I'm a long time smalltalker, but what about somebody who's evaluating other alternatives? Will a Company invest a million dollar (or a hundred at least) in a product built with a technology whose website is like ObjectConnect's one? I know this business runs on hype for a good part, but some things are just unavoidable. Regards, pd: I rather don't continue this here, it's hardly Pharo related. Pharo is doing a good job in this aspect, or at least much better than many predecessors.

Dec. 9, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Smalltalk in a C World

by Torsten Bergmann

Stef wrote: > I like the idea that you can get 50kb applications. > Now since this is a closed system and windows-centric. > But I like that it shows that Smalltalk does not have to be the image centric way. You have to additionally count the runtime DLL also which is also a few KB. But even when storage is cheap size matters. Same for Smallscript which was/is also very outstanding. Write a small ST script, run it from the console or IDE. Package a few classes into a shared library and compose the image from loadable binary components in a few seconds. > > The newest ST/MT 6.3 version (now 64 bit) is from end of November 2013 > > Now it is not a community thing. :) Yes its not. > And the web site stop and 5.6 in 2009. No, thats just a bug on the "news" page. Look at http://www.objectconnect.com/release_downloads.htm which is the one that gets updated from time to time and as I said latest release was November 2013 there. > Last time I talk to tarrick he told me that he could control the "no gc in the next 250 frames on PS2" > but it was in 1998 :) His name is Tarik Bye T.

Dec. 9, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Committing slices to Pharo30Inbox still doesn't work for me

by Stephan Eggermont

And a new version of the 12324 slice is committed

Dec. 9, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Smalltalk in a C World

by Torsten Bergmann

Esteban wrote: > I'd prefer ObjectConnect shutdown their website rather than having that. > And, at certain degree the same applies to my beloved ObjectArts and > its Dolphin masterpiece. What a nonsense - why should they shutdown their site if it is valuable to provide infos and new downloads to their customers? If you want to shut down any page that is not up-to date you may have to shut down a big part of the internet. > ps: Java is no Hype. You might like the language or not, but it has > established throughout the last decade, and is the language/platform > that runs on almost all devices. Only C can beat that. I think mainstream is the better word here. I like Java and use it a lot. Some days I dislike it when I see how complicated things can get although there are better easier alternatives. Others feel the same which is the reason for Groovy, Scala, ... And there is no doubt about Javas and especially the JVMs place in the IT universe. But Smalltalk is (at least to me) not interesting because it is a programming language - it is interesting because it is a dynamic object system that is easily changeable (including metamodel and language itself). And Pharo should not stop changing this object system until something new and better comes out of it... Bye T.

Dec. 9, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Committing slices to Pharo30Inbox still doesn't work for me

by Stephan Eggermont

I found a workaround. See https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/12379/Shape-is-missing-a-comment For me, the Nautilus "create a slice and commitâ doesnât work. Creating the slice from the monticello browser and saving it there does work.

Dec. 9, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Smalltalk in a C World

by Eliot Miranda

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:32 AM, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com>wrote: > > > > On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:01 AM, phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be>wrote: > >> The main issue is that it is complicated to embed the VM in C code. >> That's due to how the VM is done. >> >> Compared to TCL, where you can easily embed the interpreter in a C >> program, this is a problem. http://wiki.tcl.tk/3474 >> >> Where you can embed the interpreter in a C program, you can do whatever >> integration you want. >> >> Now, with NativeBoost, we can call C. The next challenge would be to be >> able to call Pharo from C by embedding the interpreter. >> >> I am curious to see what you guys think about this. >> > > It is non-trivial, but possible (I've done it twice with VisualWorks). > Spur should help (pinning is important). Callbacks r essential (Cog > provides them). > > 1. the VM is restructured as a launch .exe and a dll. > 2. the VM is restructured so that one can include an image as a resource > (windows exe's) or static data (e.g. unix); one can use an image file but > if one really wants a library it must exist just as a library > 3. one needs an API to the VM, and essentially that requires an object > request broker (ORB) between the API and callbacks into the image, so that > one can query for objects (including selectors) to be able to send messages > to them > > Note that step 3. can be implemented as a small stand-alone library that > talks to the VM running in a separate process, and on multi-core machines > this can be a more robust architecture; there's no protection against a > program corrupting the Smalltalk heap if the heap is in that program's > address space. But if the requirement is really a linkable library (that > does not spawn processes) then that's what one builds. > > >> I would love to see things like mod_pharo (as there is mod_php, mod_perl, >> mod_tcl...) in Apache. >> > > I embedded VW in a web browser as a Netscape plugin using both variants of > 3. above back in the 90's. It is very possible. The limiting factors are > time and money as usual. > > > I would love for VM discussions to be carried out on vm-dev ;-) > or at least cc'ed there... > > > --- >> Philippe Back >> Dramatic Performance Improvements >> Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 >> Mail:phil@highoctane.be | Web: http://philippeback.eu >> Blog: http://philippeback.be | Twitter: @philippeback >> Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/philippeback/videos >> >> High Octane SPRL >> rue cour Boisacq 101 | 1301 Bierges | Belgium >> >> Pharo Consortium Member - http://consortium.pharo.org/ >> Featured on the Software Process and Measurement Cast - >> http://spamcast.libsyn.com >> Sparx Systems Enterprise Architect and Ability Engineering EADocX Value >> Added Reseller >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 9:48 AM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>wrote: >> >>> please note that generating dlls alone wont be enough , plugins are >>> compiled against a runtime or specific libraries (a Plugin SDK) and >>> Smalltalk MT would have to be able to do that in order to be a viable >>> solution. >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:28 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse < >>> stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >>> >>>> You should think that they use their smalltalk for their projects. >>>> >>>> Stef >>>> >>>> On Dec 9, 2013, at 9:21 AM, ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> How can people even know Smalltalk MT still exist with their website >>>> and their communication ? >>>> >>>> I looked at other Smalltalks a while ago, for Smalltalk MT I clicked on >>>> "what's new" on their website and I got that: >>>> >>>> <Screen Shot 2013-12-09 at 9.18.11 AM.png> >>>> >>>> Then I thought this Smalltalk was dead (nothing new in the past 4 >>>> years) and I didn't look any further. >>>> >>>> >>>> 2013/12/8 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Yes - still alive and kicking. But I'm sure you did not notice since >>>>> there >>>>> > are no "big" announcements or advertising for it. >>>>> > ObjectConnect follows the "time is better invested into technology" >>>>> strategy. >>>>> > It is one of the most interesting Smalltalks ever implemented. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.objectconnect.com/stmt_overview.htm >>>>> I like the idea that you can get 50kb applications. >>>>> Now since this is a closed system and windows-centric. >>>>> But I like that it shows that Smalltalk does not have to be the image >>>>> centric way. >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> > The newest ST/MT 6.3 version (now 64 bit) is from end of November >>>>> 2013 >>>>> >>>>> Now it is not a community thing. :) >>>>> And the web site stop and 5.6 in 2009. >>>>> >>>>> Last time I talk to tarrick he told me that he could control the "no >>>>> gc in the next 250 frames on PS2" >>>>> but it was in 1998 :) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Stef >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > > -- > best, > Eliot > -- best, Eliot

Dec. 9, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Smalltalk in a C World

by Eliot Miranda

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:01 AM, phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be>wrote: > The main issue is that it is complicated to embed the VM in C code. > That's due to how the VM is done. > > Compared to TCL, where you can easily embed the interpreter in a C > program, this is a problem. http://wiki.tcl.tk/3474 > > Where you can embed the interpreter in a C program, you can do whatever > integration you want. > > Now, with NativeBoost, we can call C. The next challenge would be to be > able to call Pharo from C by embedding the interpreter. > > I am curious to see what you guys think about this. > It is non-trivial, but possible (I've done it twice with VisualWorks). Spur should help (pinning is important). Callbacks r essential (Cog provides them). 1. the VM is restructured as a launch .exe and a dll. 2. the VM is restructured so that one can include an image as a resource (windows exe's) or static data (e.g. unix); one can use an image file but if one really wants a library it must exist just as a library 3. one needs an API to the VM, and essentially that requires an object request broker (ORB) between the API and callbacks into the image, so that one can query for objects (including selectors) to be able to send messages to them Note that step 3. can be implemented as a small stand-alone library that talks to the VM running in a separate process, and on multi-core machines this can be a more robust architecture; there's no protection against a program corrupting the Smalltalk heap if the heap is in that program's address space. But if the requirement is really a linkable library (that does not spawn processes) then that's what one builds. > I would love to see things like mod_pharo (as there is mod_php, mod_perl, > mod_tcl...) in Apache. > I embedded VW in a web browser as a Netscape plugin using both variants of 3. above back in the 90's. It is very possible. The limiting factors are time and money as usual. I would love for VM discussions to be carried out on vm-dev ;-) --- > Philippe Back > Dramatic Performance Improvements > Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 > Mail:phil@highoctane.be | Web: http://philippeback.eu > Blog: http://philippeback.be | Twitter: @philippeback > Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/philippeback/videos > > High Octane SPRL > rue cour Boisacq 101 | 1301 Bierges | Belgium > > Pharo Consortium Member - http://consortium.pharo.org/ > Featured on the Software Process and Measurement Cast - > http://spamcast.libsyn.com > Sparx Systems Enterprise Architect and Ability Engineering EADocX Value > Added Reseller > > > > > On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 9:48 AM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> please note that generating dlls alone wont be enough , plugins are >> compiled against a runtime or specific libraries (a Plugin SDK) and >> Smalltalk MT would have to be able to do that in order to be a viable >> solution. >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:28 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse < >> stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> >>> You should think that they use their smalltalk for their projects. >>> >>> Stef >>> >>> On Dec 9, 2013, at 9:21 AM, ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> How can people even know Smalltalk MT still exist with their website and >>> their communication ? >>> >>> I looked at other Smalltalks a while ago, for Smalltalk MT I clicked on >>> "what's new" on their website and I got that: >>> >>> <Screen Shot 2013-12-09 at 9.18.11 AM.png> >>> >>> Then I thought this Smalltalk was dead (nothing new in the past 4 years) >>> and I didn't look any further. >>> >>> >>> 2013/12/8 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> >>> >>>> >>>> > Yes - still alive and kicking. But I'm sure you did not notice since >>>> there >>>> > are no "big" announcements or advertising for it. >>>> > ObjectConnect follows the "time is better invested into technology" >>>> strategy. >>>> > It is one of the most interesting Smalltalks ever implemented. >>>> >>>> http://www.objectconnect.com/stmt_overview.htm >>>> I like the idea that you can get 50kb applications. >>>> Now since this is a closed system and windows-centric. >>>> But I like that it shows that Smalltalk does not have to be the image >>>> centric way. >>>> >>>> > >>>> > The newest ST/MT 6.3 version (now 64 bit) is from end of November 2013 >>>> >>>> Now it is not a community thing. :) >>>> And the web site stop and 5.6 in 2009. >>>> >>>> Last time I talk to tarrick he told me that he could control the "no gc >>>> in the next 250 frames on PS2" >>>> but it was in 1998 :) >>>> >>>> >>>> Stef >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > -- best, Eliot

Dec. 9, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Voronoi diagram

by Alexandre Bergel

Hi! I've tried to load the code, but the class Quadrangle is missing... :-( Alexandre On Dec 7, 2013, at 3:25 PM, HernÃ¡n Morales Durand <hernan.morales(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Check this out > > http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~goonsh/Voronoi-2d-Diagram > http://www.squeaksource.com/VoronoiDiagram.html > > There is also an old package implementing Voronoi diagrams also, I can have a look if you those are not enough for your needs. > Cheers > > HernÃ¡n > > El 07/12/2013 13:59, Natalia Tymchuk escribiÃ³: >> Hello. >> I started implementing visualization of Voronoi diagrams and I need to >> do a lot of operations on the lines and polygons. I have some questions: >> Is it implemented somewhere? >> Did somebody do something with the Voronoi diagrams? >> >> Best regards, >> Natalia >> >> > > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Dec. 9, 2013