July 2012 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] renggli mirror created on smalltalkhub

by Esteban Lorenzano

I share your feelings... the way we handle sources right now is completely outdated and out of century. now, some steps are being taken to improve situation) some others not: You actually can change the default package-cache location. In fact, it is there because historical issues: years ago, the usual way to develop was to use just one image, and load everything there. Now we have changed that approach (*we*, that does not happens in other communities), and we usually start a new image when we want to do something new. To learn how to redirect your cache, follow this post from Mariano: http://marianopeck.wordpress.com/2012/05/19/pharo-tips-and-tricks/ Also... I want to propose to default the configuration to a shared package cache, but well... btw... this "previous" way of development was the main reason why some stupid problems are emerging just now, i'e. MC breaks with long package-cache (already fixed), or the obvious observation for everyone now that MC does not fit us... it was perfectly fine until a couple of years ago, but now is being a burden more than a help :) And well... about the MC thing, while I disagree with the "compatibility" approach of Dale with cypress (I think he should just drop MC compatibility... is force a ferrari to run with wooden wheels), he is making a huge effort to allow the community to use git (and I suppose that work would be easily portable to others like mercurial, darcs, etc.) Anyway... there is no magic solution (and Ulysse the monkey just know how to run tests, we failed to teach him to program for us :)... This things take time and effort... we can be there eventually, but we can do just one step at a time. best, Esteban On Jul 4, 2012, at 3:13 PM, Friedrich Dominicus wrote: > Well I can not follow this completely. I can not find an answer of why > text-based solutions won't cut it and I have also no idea what an > object-oriented revision control might have other than a very good way > of handling text. I guess I wil have to find some older threads to get > an idea. > > Anyway what I can't understand is that we can not simply switch from > fone repository to another. It does not even have to be always > up-to-date. > > Let me just ask you, how much time do you need if squeacksource is gone > to get a new image filled up and running. No I do not know how often you > do that but I for my part do it with nearly every Pharo version there > is. > > I'm now trying to get some stuff installed in Pharo 2.0 (I guess you > want this stuff to be used) and it takes me hours over hours and I still > do not get anywhere. > > So I simply do not get why we just have a register of places where we > can find this stuff and are not "forced" to code that into the > monticello packages. > > Well if I have to than at least Pharo should be able to easily allow me > to run a kind of grep/replace in the ConfigurationOfFiles. AFAIKt I have > the Extended search but this does just searching and not replacing. So > I'm suposed to manually change all the ConfigurationOf to look in my > local cache first. This is at least odd. > > Another stuff I simply do not get is package-cache. Why is it local to > every other Pharo image? Why can't I say drop all below package-cache on > my machine that's it. I do not know how many copies I have around here > with the same "information". I can not see why this should make sens in > the "standard" case.... > > I'm sorry but I simply do not understand a few things really. And well I > can also not see an advantage of not treating sources as text-files for > easier handling. This stupid text-files work since decades.... > > Regards > Friedrich >

July 4, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] renggli mirror created on smalltalkhub

by Camillo Bruni

On 2012-07-04, at 15:34, Dennis Schetinin wrote: > "MC is not good enough" and "We should use Git" are a bit different thoughts. MC's model of versioning stuff / changes representation is fairly ok However everything that leaves the image is deadly broken :D So the main issue here is the MC backends which are horribly inefficient and do not scale very well. Then there are of course issues in the image itself: - a merge browser that doesn't allow me to merge manually (that has to be improved) - a complete parallel structure for describing methods / classes ... - UI tools that literally are from the last century > If MC is not good enough we should improve it or create better tools, but (for me) Git seems to be a wrong direction for that. I've tried to explain in another message why. Git is a storage mechanism which scales and opens up smalltalk to people which don't like images.

July 4, 2012

[Pharo-project] Pharo-1.4-Tests Â» 32,mac - Build # 71 - Failure!

by jenkins-pharo.ci.inria.fr＠jenkins-server.lille.inria.fr

July 4, 2012

[Pharo-project] Pharo-1.4-Tests Â» 32,win - Build # 71 - Failure!

by jenkins-pharo.ci.inria.fr＠jenkins-server.lille.inria.fr

July 4, 2012

[Pharo-project] Pharo-1.4-Tests Â» 32,linux - Build # 71 - Failure!

by jenkins-pharo.ci.inria.fr＠jenkins-server.lille.inria.fr

July 4, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] renggli mirror created on smalltalkhub

by Camillo Bruni

On 2012-07-04, at 15:30, Dennis Schetinin wrote: > On Wednesday, 4 July 2012 Ð³. at 16:11, Damien Cassou wrote: >> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 2:09 PM, Dennis Schetinin <chaetal(a)gmail.com (mailto:chaetal@gmail.com)> wrote: >>> Am I wrong considering migration to Git-or-AnythingElseTextOriented to be a >>> give up on hopes for a real object-oriented source control/management as it >>> could and should be in Smalltalk? >>> >> >> >> can you think of any feature we could have now we couldn't with Git? > I didn't say "now", I talked about "hopes". E.g. hopes for "Source" Control Tool being aware of refactorings and other *operations* I apply to my program, instead of treating it as a plain text with some changes of unknown nature. I'm not sure it's possible right now (I know it's not, better to say?). But with a Smalltalk-based source control we can have it on one splendid day in the future. And I think on the Git way we'll finish with just some advanced text-comparison algorithms. No? that has nothing to do with versioning per se. You can always hook in a different merger for git (that's already a built in feature) which simply redirects over a Pharo image and applies some more ST logic there. Going for something that is even more st specific is a waste of time IMO. What can you do else than storing text? ASTs? besides being incompatible with the whole world of text editable things you won't win much :/. Besides source code is quite a compact representation of ast's itself... cami

July 4, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] renggli mirror created on smalltalkhub

by Damien Cassou

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 3:29 PM, Dennis Schetinin <chaetal(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I didn't say "now", I talked about "hopes". E.g. hopes for "Source" Control Tool being aware of refactorings and other *operations* I apply to my program, instead of treating it as a plain text with some changes of unknown nature. I'm not sure it's possible right now (I know it's not, better to say?). But with a Smalltalk-based source control we can have it on one splendid day in the future. And I think on the Git way we'll finish with just some advanced text-comparison algorithms. No? I think using git or another VCS would prevent us from having this bright future :-). Git for example won't store diffs or patches, it saves the end result. Nothing prevent us from adding meta-data to a commit to remember we did a refactoring at this point. I don't see how the situation could be any better with object-oriented VCS. -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry

July 4, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] renggli mirror created on smalltalkhub

by Dennis Schetinin

"MC is not good enough" and "We should use Git" are a bit different thoughts. If MC is not good enough we should improve it or create better tools, but (for me) Git seems to be a wrong direction for that. I've tried to explain in another message why. Best regards, Dennis Schetinin Sent with Sparrow (http://www.sparrowmailapp.com/?sig) On Wednesday, 4 July 2012 Ð³. at 16:17, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: > Hi, > > No, what is wrong is considering monticello itself an object oriented control management system. Right now MC does not provides anything that can be thought as that... even more, MC does not provides anything better than current CMS around... > So, what we have now is an old CMS, and a lot of tools trying to be compatible with that old system. Imagine if GIT would tried to be compatible with CVS... and to create an object control management is a considerable effort, no one want to do, and probably pointless... at least right now. > > best, > Esteban > > > On Jul 4, 2012, at 2:09 PM, Dennis Schetinin wrote: > > Am I wrong considering migration to Git-or-AnythingElseTextOriented to be a give up on hopes for a real object-oriented source control/management as it could and should be in Smalltalk? > > > > Best regards, > > Dennis Schetinin > > Sent with Sparrow (http://www.sparrowmailapp.com/?sig) > > > > > > On Wednesday, 4 July 2012 Ð³. at 16:02, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: > > > > > > > > On 04 Jul 2012, at 13:50, phil(a)highoctane.be (mailto:phil@highoctane.be) wrote: > > > > > > > I am using Mercurial for all of the other projects and technologies. > > > > > > > > With a full copy of everything locally, it helps indeed when we get crashes... > > > > > > > > But GIT/Hg isn't giving you the change sorter. > > > > > > I have used/tried FileTree/Git(hub) a bit and it is cool and it works. > > > But I do miss (tools) integration in the image. > > > The workflow also changes a bit, it is no longer all Smalltalk. > > > > > > IMHO it is not yet quite ready. > > > > > > Sven > > >

July 4, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] renggli mirror created on smalltalkhub

by Dennis Schetinin

On Wednesday, 4 July 2012 Ð³. at 16:11, Damien Cassou wrote: > On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 2:09 PM, Dennis Schetinin <chaetal(a)gmail.com (mailto:chaetal@gmail.com)> wrote: > > Am I wrong considering migration to Git-or-AnythingElseTextOriented to be a > > give up on hopes for a real object-oriented source control/management as it > > could and should be in Smalltalk? > > > > > can you think of any feature we could have now we couldn't with Git? I didn't say "now", I talked about "hopes". E.g. hopes for "Source" Control Tool being aware of refactorings and other *operations* I apply to my program, instead of treating it as a plain text with some changes of unknown nature. I'm not sure it's possible right now (I know it's not, better to say?). But with a Smalltalk-based source control we can have it on one splendid day in the future. And I think on the Git way we'll finish with just some advanced text-comparison algorithms. No? Best regards, Dennis Schetinin Sent with Sparrow (http://www.sparrowmailapp.com/?sig)

July 4, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] renggli mirror created on smalltalkhub

by Damien Cassou

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 3:13 PM, Friedrich Dominicus < frido(a)q-software-solutions.de> wrote: > Another stuff I simply do not get is package-cache. Why is it local to > every other Pharo image? Why can't I say drop all below package-cache on > my machine that's it. I do not know how many copies I have around here > with the same "information". I can not see why this should make sens in > the "standard" case.... http://marianopeck.wordpress.com/2012/05/12/startuploader-running-startup-s… http://marianopeck.wordpress.com/2012/05/19/pharo-tips-and-tricks/ Add this to ~/.config/pharo/2.0/monticello.st StartupLoader default executeAtomicItems: { StartupAction name: 'Monticello related stuff' code: [| sharedPackageCacheDirectory | FileStream stdout lf; nextPutAll: 'Executing Monticello related stuff'; lf. sharedPackageCacheDirectory := (FileDirectory on: 'XXXXXXX PATH TO GLOBAL CACHE XXXXXXXX') assureExistence; yourself. MCCacheRepository default directory: sharedPackageCacheDirectory. MCDirectoryRepository defaultDirectoryName: 'XXXXXXX PATH TO GLOBAL CACHE XXXXXXXX'. (MCRepositoryGroup default repositories select: [:each | (each isKindOf: MCHttpRepository) and: [(each locationWithTrailingSlash includesSubString: ' www.squeaksource.com') or: [each locationWithTrailingSlash includesSubString: ' http://ss3.gemstone.com/ss/']]]) do: [:each | each user: 'XXXXXXXXXXXXX'; password: 'XXXXXXXXXXXX']. FileStream stdout lf; nextPutAll: 'Finished'; lf]. }. -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry

July 4, 2012