April 2012 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Tirade! (was: Re: About Cypress [Was: Re: [ANN] Styled Text Editor for Cuis 4.0 Smalltalk])

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

>> But you can express **EXACTLY** the same with >> #( >> >> >> ) >> >> So what is the point? > > You can do stuff with it outside an image? Why not? I have problem to get all the meta-data of our system getting stored in a foreign language. This means that I will also have to have this parser while we have one that is working. In that case why not saving Smalltalk methods in Javascript syntax. Because this is basically what is happening with the class definition. Stef

April 24, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] new icon set

by Norbert Hartl

Am 24.04.2012 um 11:21 schrieb Geert Claes: > In light of the recent "toybox from mattel" look feedback on reddit, I reckon > Esteban's proposed icons are a big step forward so I would say get them in > Pharo :) > > http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/si9s5/pharo_14_released_smallt… > Of course, if there is an ugly replacment that can be used if the system is minimised. Having two icon sets introduces the possibility to make the ugly one consume even less memory, e.g. make it black and white. Norbert

April 24, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Tirade! (was: Re: About Cypress [Was: Re: [ANN] Styled Text Editor for Cuis 4.0 Smalltalk])

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

On 24 Apr 2012, at 11:10, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >>> And yet again I point to Tirade :) >>> >>> http://goran.krampe.se/blog/Squeak/Tirade.rdoc >>> http://goran.krampe.se/blog/Squeak/Tirade2.rdoc >>> http://goran.krampe.se/blog/Squeak/Tirade3.rdoc >>> >>> Especially Tirade2 above shows a bit about size (4 classes, 500 loc) speed and portability. Tirade is basically a parser for Smalltalk messages that only are allowed to use literals as arguments (although arbitrarily nested literals). >>> >>> Which is exactly what Stef describes + a bit more. :) >> >> Yeah, I remember reading that a long time ago. It is indeed a cool idea, GÃ¶ran. Reminds me of the Erlang related UBF (http://www.sics.se/~joe/ubf/site/home.html) >> >> I think the JSON choise is not bad: it is simple and universally accepted. > > But you can express **EXACTLY** the same with > #( > > > ) > > So what is the point? > > Stef Yes, you are right, they are technically mostly equivalent. (JSON has simpler primitive types, clear escapes, lists/arrays and maps/dictionaries). But the point is, there are so many formats out there, and everybody likes to make there own. If you pick JSON, the discussion ends. It is an RFC standard. If you pick something that looks suspiciously like some (for most people) weird programming language you will get discussions, always. Dale said so: it is a pragmatic choice. Now, given the fact that the domain here is Smalltalk anyway, there is something to say for using a Smalltalk based representation. But then you need to write a clear spec and a non-compiler based parser. With the JSON meta data, you could envision other non-Smalltalk tools using it more easily. Sven -- Sven Van Caekenberghe http://stfx.eu Smalltalk is the Red Pill

April 24, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Tirade! (was: Re: About Cypress [Was: Re: [ANN] Styled Text Editor for Cuis 4.0 Smalltalk])

by Norbert Hartl

Am 24.04.2012 um 11:10 schrieb StÃ©phane Ducasse: >>> And yet again I point to Tirade :) >>> >>> http://goran.krampe.se/blog/Squeak/Tirade.rdoc >>> http://goran.krampe.se/blog/Squeak/Tirade2.rdoc >>> http://goran.krampe.se/blog/Squeak/Tirade3.rdoc >>> >>> Especially Tirade2 above shows a bit about size (4 classes, 500 loc) speed and portability. Tirade is basically a parser for Smalltalk messages that only are allowed to use literals as arguments (although arbitrarily nested literals). >>> >>> Which is exactly what Stef describes + a bit more. :) >> >> Yeah, I remember reading that a long time ago. It is indeed a cool idea, GÃ¶ran. Reminds me of the Erlang related UBF (http://www.sics.se/~joe/ubf/site/home.html) >> >> I think the JSON choise is not bad: it is simple and universally accepted. > > But you can express **EXACTLY** the same with > #( > > > ) > > So what is the point? > The two points are still the same, Stef. The lesser important point was the absence of a cross platform parser for that format. Here I understand Dale. He spawns of project after project that depend on each other. I think he is not willing to yet postpone this project only to create such a parser when there is a usable alternativ. Others might create it and convince him afterwards which isn't very difficult if I take my experience until now. That would be the easier part. The harder part is security. The security standpoints always divide between white lists and black lists. Meaning a white list forbids everything and allows things on a white list. Or vice versa you allow everything and put things you don't like on a black list. Having a Smalltalk format means I have two options: "Read and parse it" or "Read and evaluate it". As far as I understand Dale he sees a big problem if people just evaluate configurations which contain bogus code. It is just so easy to introduce code that borkes your system. While I really can understand the security concerns I personally think that having two options is better. The standard tools should just take parse route. Norbert

April 24, 2012

[Pharo-project] Pharo and the rest of the ecosystem

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi guys May I ask you why you talk about CUIS and Spoon/Pharo? If you want to work with these systems we do not have any problems. We are working on Pharo since 2008. We deliver regularly, we are concerned with making sure that you can do business with Pharo. And we will continue. WE want to invent and build OUR future. We are spending a lot of time on making the system better. - Fuel - Athens - OPAL - Ghost - Nautilus - Ring - NativeBoost - Zinc - HUGE amount of fixes - Working on a core - Writing a lot of documentation (yes guys) to name a few. We are pushing like hell and getting there. We spent time building our vision and step by step building it. We are getting there. :) Now I do not see the points related to spoon and cuis. I do not understand what is the point. If people wants to collaborate with us this is ok now we do not count on that for our future. You do not have to reply. Just think about what you want to build and your future. Everybody make choices and is free. Stef

April 24, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] new icon set

by Geert Claes

In light of the recent "toybox from mattel" look feedback on reddit, I reckon Esteban's proposed icons are a big step forward so I would say get them in Pharo :) http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/si9s5/pharo_14_released_smallt… -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/new-icon-set-tp4580408p4582832.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

April 24, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Tirade! (was: Re: About Cypress [Was: Re: [ANN] Styled Text Editor for Cuis 4.0 Smalltalk])

by Tobias Pape

> > But you can express **EXACTLY** the same with > #( > > > ) > > So what is the point? You can do stuff with it outside an image? Best -Tobias

April 24, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Show categoy in implementors, senders.. etc

by Mariano Martinez Peck

Ben, can we add this? On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 10:18 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse < stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > so we want both :) > > On Apr 20, 2012, at 9:43 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 9:41 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse < > stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > Yes > > yes originally we wanted to have the package name but it was too slow > now with RPackage it should get fast enough. > > On Apr 20, 2012, at 5:48 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > > > > Hi Ben. I really miss the ability of seing the category in > senders/implementors. Lots of time I want to see for example if all > implementation or senders are in the correct package or not, etc... > > > > > > > > Sorry stef when I said " Lots of time I want to see for example if all > implementation or senders are in the correct package or not, etc..." > > I wanted to mean category rather than package. (but sometimes the > category means a package when you use * hahaha) > > > > > > > > > So, together with Guille, waiting for the train, we hacked: > > > > > > FlatMessageListBrowser >> createColumnsFor: anItem > > > > > > ^ bindings > > > at: anItem > > > ifAbsentPut: [ {anItem realClass name. anItem selector > asString, ' (' ,anItem category asString, ')'} ] > > > > > > Not sure if that's the place, but it would be nice to have :) > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > -- > > > Mariano > > > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Mariano > > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > > > > > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

April 24, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Tirade! (was: Re: About Cypress [Was: Re: [ANN] Styled Text Editor for Cuis 4.0 Smalltalk])

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

>> And yet again I point to Tirade :) >> >> http://goran.krampe.se/blog/Squeak/Tirade.rdoc >> http://goran.krampe.se/blog/Squeak/Tirade2.rdoc >> http://goran.krampe.se/blog/Squeak/Tirade3.rdoc >> >> Especially Tirade2 above shows a bit about size (4 classes, 500 loc) speed and portability. Tirade is basically a parser for Smalltalk messages that only are allowed to use literals as arguments (although arbitrarily nested literals). >> >> Which is exactly what Stef describes + a bit more. :) > > Yeah, I remember reading that a long time ago. It is indeed a cool idea, GÃ¶ran. Reminds me of the Erlang related UBF (http://www.sics.se/~joe/ubf/site/home.html) > > I think the JSON choise is not bad: it is simple and universally accepted. But you can express **EXACTLY** the same with #( ) So what is the point? Stef

April 24, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] new icon set

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

> that sounds cool. But what do you do on a server image with shiny rendered vector based icons. What will be in the image after cleanUpForProduction? yes this was my point. stef

April 24, 2012