February 2012 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Debugger hanging... was Re: 1.4 - better from Jenkins

by Ben Coman

The error I reported here should not affect your using a breakpoint #snapshot:andQuit in to debug this. Just avoid clicking <restart> in the debugger for #snapshot:andQuit: For your problem with the debugger, here is how I would go about it. 1. Check if any failures occur with TestRunner on ToolsTest-Debugger? If any of them do fail (for example #testBasic), then use that as an observation point to help isolate the problem. 2. Automate the loading of additional code using the new preferences feature. After each step check whether #testBasic now fails. This hopefully makes it reproducible and facilitates divide and conquer to isolate which code is interfering with the debugger. A possible startup script (pseudocode) Transcript open. Transcript crShow: 'Loading A failures = ' Load the code for A Transcript show: ( DebuggerTest run: #testBasic ) failures size Transcript crShow: 'Loading B failures = ' Load the code for B Transcript show: ( DebuggerTest run: #testBasic ) failures size ...etc Execute `StartupLoader example` to generate a template startup script. Unzip a fresh image. Seed the local package cache from a previous image. Run the image. 3. Set Debugger>>logDebuggerStackToFile and see if anything spits out (note I haven't used this myself - just saw it in the code) cheers, -ben Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Sig, > > Has there been any decision/update on this? One good suggestion to get to the bottom of my problem is to set a breakpoint in the snapshot code. But, I currently have little faith that this will reveal an offender, because one of the early symptoms of my images going bad is that debuggers will no longer open. > > If reverting a change or whatever else fixes this, it could be a big help in finding my problem, if not (via event sensor) a fix to it. > > Bill > > > ________________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Henrik Johansen [henrik.s.johansen(a)veloxit.no] > Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 6:55 AM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Debugger hanging... was Re: 1.4 - better from Jenkins > > On Feb 10, 2012, at 6:42 PM, Ben Coman wrote: > > >> While I was working towards implementing DosFileDirectory>>preferencesFolder & >>preferencesGeneralFolder >> I was stepping through: SmalltalkImage>>snapshot:andQuit: did a: <Restart> >> and then stepped down to: Cursor write show >> at which point the debugger hung the image. >> >> Now I guess theres an equal chance this is not really an issue as something "special" might be happening here straddling the save point. Just thought I would report it for review. >> >> To reproduce on non-Windows you could probably set preferencesFolder & preferencesGeneralFolder on your platform to self shouldBeImplemented and proceed from the debugger that comes up. >> >> SmalltalkImage>>snapshot: save andQuit: quit >> | snapshotResult resuming startupErrors | >> Object flushDependents. >> Object flushEvents. >> self addSnapshotRecord: save andQuit: quit. >> self processShutDownList: quit. >> Cursor write show. <--------Image Hangs Here after a <Restart> of the method while debugging following a resume.. >> >> cheers, -ben >> > > IIRC, the InputEventSensor is deregistered as part of shutdown, if so, that would indeed lead to a non-responsive image at that point. (In the sense that the thing that processes input is no longer there) > > Cheers, > Henry > > >

Feb. 14, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Are Objects really hard?

by Guido Stepken

Am 14.02.2012 16:57, schrieb Igor Stasenko: > On 14 February 2012 15:07, Hernan Wilkinson > <hernan.wilkinson(a)10pines.com> wrote: >> Well... this is an example of what the "thread" was about at the >> beginning... that is, the lack of knowledge on software development... I you >> have known a little bit about architecture, multi-threading and vm >> implementation, you would quickly realize that pharo will not scale as a >> server. Squeak (where pharo comes from) was not design/implemented to be >> used as a server (and please, don not take this bad, I don't want to >> be unworthy with Pharo because it is changing and getting better with every >> realease) >> > There's no reason to take it bad, because you stating the truth. > >> So, if you want to do a "serious enterprise" application, you should have >> used and architecture prepare for that such as GemStone (GLASS in this >> case)... it is a pity you lost so much money due to you "lack" of knowledge. >> > People who taking it serious also first discover the area of possibility, > which implies talking to people and asking questions. > > I never seen from Guido questions like "does it scales if i run it > standalone etc". > And that means that he's not any serious with his harsh statements, > just trolling. > Lookup Google "Pharo hanging" ... very few companies are really using Pharo, but i am not the only one reporting this. Tnx for the "troll". Have fun hacking, Guido Stepken

Feb. 14, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Are Objects really hard?

by Igor Stasenko

On 14 February 2012 15:07, Hernan Wilkinson <hernan.wilkinson(a)10pines.com> wrote: > Well... this is an example of what the "thread" was about at the > beginning... that is, the lack of knowledge on software development... I you > have known a little bit about architecture, multi-threading and vm > implementation, you would quickly realize that pharo will not scale as a > server. Squeak (where pharo comes from) was not design/implemented to be > used as a server (and please, don not take this bad, I don't want to > beÂ unworthyÂ with Pharo because it is changing and getting better with every > realease) > There's no reason to take it bad, because you stating the truth. > So, if you want to do a "serious enterprise" application, you should have > used and architecture prepare for that such as GemStone (GLASS in this > case)... it is aÂ pityÂ you lost so much money due to you "lack" of knowledge. > People who taking it serious also first discover the area of possibility, which implies talking to people and asking questions. I never seen from Guido questions like "does it scales if i run it standalone etc". And that means that he's not any serious with his harsh statements, just trolling. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Feb. 14, 2012

[Pharo-project] [update 1.4] #14331

by Marcus Denker

14331 ----- Issue 5291: FSReference(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: #asLowercase http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5291 Issue 5294: Remove the Send bug report by Mail from Debugger http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5294 -- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

Feb. 14, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Are Objects really hard?

by Hernan Wilkinson

Well... this is an example of what the "thread" was about at the beginning... that is, the lack of knowledge on software development... I you have known a little bit about architecture, multi-threading and vm implementation, you would quickly realize that pharo will not scale as a server. Squeak (where pharo comes from) was not design/implemented to be used as a server (and please, don not take this bad, I don't want to be unworthy with Pharo because it is changing and getting better with every realease) So, if you want to do a "serious enterprise" application, you should have used and architecture prepare for that such as GemStone (GLASS in this case)... it is a pity you lost so much money due to you "lack" of knowledge. Bye, Hernan On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 11:22 PM, Guido Stepken <gstepken(a)googlemail.com>wrote: > Am 13.02.2012 20:25 schrieb "StÃ©phane Ducasse" <stephane.ducasse<stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > @ <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>inria.fr <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>>: > > > > Dear Guido > > Hi Stef! > > > > Do the right things, make Pharo, Seaside *usable* > > > > Did you try with VisualWorks? > > I'm pretty sure that you can use it without paying a license. :) > > > > > > Look at: http://<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-suc…> > www.cyberport.de<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-suc…> > /<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-suc…> > notebook<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-suc…> > -und-<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-suc…> > tablet<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-suc…> > /<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-suc…> > notebook<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-suc…> > -<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-suc…> > berater<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-suc…> > /erweiterte-suche/<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-suc…> > liste.html<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-suc…> > > > > > > Selecting notebooks by price, endurance, weight, with sliders. I could > sell *hundreds* of those shops to customers, big companies, hosting > inclusive for 20.000 each. > > > > Are you doing such web site? With Seaside? With Pharo? > > Wie started off a project, a shop like this, with Seaside on Pharo, and we > had to give up, when benchmarks came into consideration. > > You remember, some time ago, you and Marcus denied all my complaints: > > http://<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-boc…> > forum.world.st<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-boc…> > /<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-boc…> > Hanging<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-boc…> > -<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-boc…> > connects<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-boc…> > -<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-boc…> > exhausted<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-boc…> > -<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-boc…> > resources<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-boc…> > -<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-boc…> > memory<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-boc…> > -<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-boc…> > leaks<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-boc…> > -<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-boc…> > bocked<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-boc…> > -<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-boc…> > everything<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-boc…> > -<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-boc…> > Unusable<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-boc…> > -td3669616.html<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-boc…> > > What has happened? I went on with pushing development of a similar shop > (see cyberport.de) and finally lost several 10.000nds of â¬, because > Pharo/Seaside *is* much too slow for any serious enterprise. > > > > Pharo/Seaside *is* the right tool if YOU WOULD DO THE RIGHT THINGS, > not just bothering some class structure deep in Pharo. > > > > > > Pharo hangs even at *directly* serving static pages at low loads. I > hoped to see significant speedups due to lack of any 3/4/5 tier middleware > with being everything done within one VM. Database, delivery, â¦ > > > > Provide real code and examples. > > My former complaints (see link above) have been ignored, calling me a > Troll, and in the meantime this list *is full* of reports Pharo being > unstable. > > You as being the *always optimistic* chief develloper and project manager > your lazy attitude already has cost me a lot of â¬!!! More than your annual > income! > > But ok, my personal risk! > > > > I am still disappointed. Welcome in the *real world*. Doing academic > brainfuck is not sufficient. > > > > :) > > Who are you to know what we are really doing :) > > I follow all changes, i know, hat you are aiming at! But - you've got the > wrong priorities! > > Stability *always* comes first!!! > > > > So are your etats for developing Pharo, near ZERO. Start thinking like > business men! Listen to that, what customers want! > > > > > > I would be curious to see your "clients". > > I've got best connections to top 500 enterprise and deciders in germany. I > would be pleased to present them a Seaside Shop, running on Pharo, > PostgreSql or Magma behind, ready to run from within one image. > > > Pharo is far from what we dream about but we are serious about it and we > are concerned by business. > > > > Now your trolling is good because we are not an obscure community > without a troll but we have one troll > > so this is good. Thanks. > > Ok. If you are not able to get Pharo development managed under > consideration of business needs, means: benchmarks and stress tests equiv > to sunit tests, please step back as project leader! > > > If you are positive and provide information that is not just > bullshitting then we will consider to reply and consider your request else > *plonk* > > I am positive, still, although you cost me much money. > > Happy hacking! > > Guido Stepken > -- *HernÃ¡n Wilkinson Agile Software Development, Teaching & Coaching Mobile: +54 - 911 - 4470 - 7207 email: hernan.wilkinson(a)10Pines.com site: http://www.10Pines.com <http://www.10pines.com/>* Address: Paraguay 523, Floor 7 N, Buenos Aires, Argentina

Feb. 14, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Debugger hanging... was Re: 1.4 - better from Jenkins

by Henrik Johansen

My bad; I meant the InputEventFetcher, the effect is the same. Cheers, Henry On Feb 13, 2012, at 2:41 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: > On 13 February 2012 12:55, Henrik Johansen <henrik.s.johansen(a)veloxit.no> wrote: >> >> On Feb 10, 2012, at 6:42 PM, Ben Coman wrote: >> >>> While I was working towards implementing DosFileDirectory>>preferencesFolder & >>preferencesGeneralFolder >>> I was stepping through: SmalltalkImage>>snapshot:andQuit: did a: <Restart> >>> and then stepped down to: Cursor write show >>> at which point the debugger hung the image. >>> >>> Now I guess theres an equal chance this is not really an issue as something "special" might be happening here straddling the save point. Just thought I would report it for review. >>> >>> To reproduce on non-Windows you could probably set preferencesFolder & preferencesGeneralFolder on your platform to self shouldBeImplemented and proceed from the debugger that comes up. >>> >>> SmalltalkImage>>snapshot: save andQuit: quit >>> | snapshotResult resuming startupErrors | >>> Object flushDependents. >>> Object flushEvents. >>> self addSnapshotRecord: save andQuit: quit. >>> self processShutDownList: quit. >>> Cursor write show. <--------Image Hangs Here after a <Restart> of the method while debugging following a resume.. >>> >>> cheers, -ben >> >> IIRC, the InputEventSensor is deregistered as part of shutdown, if so, that would indeed lead to a non-responsive image at that point. (In the sense that the thing that processes input is no longer there) >> > > Well, its #shutDown method is empty. > But still, i think you have right insight. > > Because there is enough of Delay>>shutDown to stop everything, because > most stuff using delays , including UI process. > ---- > shutDown > "Suspend the active delay, if any, before snapshotting. It will be > reactived when the snapshot is resumed." > "Details: This prevents a timer interrupt from waking up the active > delay in the midst snapshoting, since the active delay will be > restarted when resuming the snapshot and we don't want to process the > delay twice." > > >> Cheers, >> Henry > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. >

Feb. 14, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Debugger hanging... was Re: 1.4 - better from Jenkins

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Sig, Has there been any decision/update on this? One good suggestion to get to the bottom of my problem is to set a breakpoint in the snapshot code. But, I currently have little faith that this will reveal an offender, because one of the early symptoms of my images going bad is that debuggers will no longer open. If reverting a change or whatever else fixes this, it could be a big help in finding my problem, if not (via event sensor) a fix to it. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Henrik Johansen [henrik.s.johansen(a)veloxit.no] Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 6:55 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Debugger hanging... was Re: 1.4 - better from Jenkins On Feb 10, 2012, at 6:42 PM, Ben Coman wrote: > While I was working towards implementing DosFileDirectory>>preferencesFolder & >>preferencesGeneralFolder > I was stepping through: SmalltalkImage>>snapshot:andQuit: did a: <Restart> > and then stepped down to: Cursor write show > at which point the debugger hung the image. > > Now I guess theres an equal chance this is not really an issue as something "special" might be happening here straddling the save point. Just thought I would report it for review. > > To reproduce on non-Windows you could probably set preferencesFolder & preferencesGeneralFolder on your platform to self shouldBeImplemented and proceed from the debugger that comes up. > > SmalltalkImage>>snapshot: save andQuit: quit > | snapshotResult resuming startupErrors | > Object flushDependents. > Object flushEvents. > self addSnapshotRecord: save andQuit: quit. > self processShutDownList: quit. > Cursor write show. <--------Image Hangs Here after a <Restart> of the method while debugging following a resume.. > > cheers, -ben IIRC, the InputEventSensor is deregistered as part of shutdown, if so, that would indeed lead to a non-responsive image at that point. (In the sense that the thing that processes input is no longer there) Cheers, Henry

Feb. 14, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Are Objects really hard?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Feb 14, 2012, at 1:40 PM, Marcus Denker wrote: > Improving a system allows you do do things *faster*, and even, at some point, > do things that where impossible without the improvement. (regardless how > much time and intelligence you have). > > *That* is non-linear progress. YES. This is why we are investigating in the infrastructure. Because we want to be able to do impossible things: like serializing a stack with fuel and loading it in another image :). Stef

Feb. 14, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Are Objects really hard?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi doru can you explain this sentence and implications for single minded people :) Stef > One should not presume much about Pharo because its evolution super-linear, and > we all know how poor we are at estimating such super-linear models

Feb. 14, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] how to load rb in pharo 1.4?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Feb 14, 2012, at 3:01 AM, Camillo Bruni wrote: > AFAIK it's called ConfigurationOfRefactoringBrowser in the Metacello repos ... > > spec > className: 'ConfigurationOfRefactoringBrowser'; > versionString: #'stable'; > repository: 'http://www.squeaksource.com/MetacelloRepository' > > Somebody should > a) open the rb repos for general commit which one? because if I'm admin I can do it. > b) add me as a contributor > c) upload the Config to the rb repos > > On 2012-02-13, at 21:59, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: > >> i don't know... but loading ob loads rb too :) >> >> El 13/02/2012, a las 5:44p.m., Tudor Girba escribiÃ³: >> >>> I could not find it. >>> >>> Could someone please point me to the magic invocation? >>> >>> Doru >>> >>> >>> On 13 Feb 2012, at 21:21, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 9:20 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >>>> mariano and guillermo did a configuration to load >>>> >>>> Guille did it. I was just a lucky beta tester :) >>>> >>>> shout >>>> OC >>>> RB >>>> in 1.4 >>>> >>>> Check in the mailing-list >>>> >>>> Stef >>>> On Feb 13, 2012, at 9:11 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I lost track of the latests developments around RB. What is the way to load RB in Pharo 1.4? >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Doru >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>>> >>>>> "What we can governs what we wish." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Mariano >>>> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> www.tudorgirba.com >>> >>> "Obvious things are difficult to teach." >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > >

Feb. 14, 2012