February 2012 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

[Pharo-project] Feedback from lecture :(

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

students in the lecture on windows downloaded cogvm I do not from whereâ¦ and used pharo1.3 and some experienced crashes. We will have to brand these vms because the situation is getting difficult. I do not imagine how we can track these problems. Stef

Feb. 14, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Nautilus Refactorings

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

thanks benjamin. Stef > Hello guys, > > I know a some of you are waiting for the integration of the RB engine into Nautilus. > > Some of them are already implemented, so if you wanna test them, here is the gofer script > > Gofer new > url: 'http://ss3.gemstone.com/ss/Nautilus'; > package: 'ConfigurationOfNautilus'; > load. > > (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfNautilusRefactoring) perform: #loadDefault > > > It loads everything. > > For now I have only done some refactorings for classes, so if you popup the menu on a class, a new item named Refactoring should appear :) > > Moreover, the 'rename class' method is replaced by the RB one :) > > > Thanks in advance for your feedback, and if you want to participate, you are more than welcome :) > > > Ben

Feb. 14, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Are Objects really hard?

by Igor Stasenko

On 14 February 2012 18:17, Guido Stepken <gstepken(a)googlemail.com> wrote: > Hi Igor! > > This is not the point. Modern architectures have different goals in mind. > Projected on Pharo, it means that: > > 1. Make Pharo nonblocking. Remove any locking, completely. > 2. Make Pharo fast. Use "in situ algorithms", avoid any copying of data, > objects, whatever. > 3. Make Pharo "overload proof". Install selfprotecting algorithms. > 4. Read Knuth, use advanced algothims. Modern architectures dont't need to > GC (or rarely). "Objects not created do not to be garbage collected!" > 5. Make any GC concurrent for no longer intererrupting the VM. > 6. Make Pharo multithreaded. Even my mobile has 2 processors, ASUS prime > tablet even has 5! > 7. Drop COGVM. LVCC is able to post - jit, callback problem solved, > MP-ready, e.t.c. > 8. UNIT Testing is not enough. Continuous benchmarking and stress/overload > tests belong to *every* serious software development process. > 9. You develop on MacOS. Where in the world are webhosters using MacOS? Make > it work stable on FreeBSD, Linux, Windows Server 2008 ... > 10. Use Moose...whatever to detect possible deadlocks. This belongs to > modern software development. > 11. Offer a collaboration tool on Pharo, where Smalltalk hobbyists may help > you refactoring ... a todo list .. > 12. Same for translations. > 13. Long time ago i posted a bug: "Wrong development process". Stef deleted > my entry without understanding. > Thanks. It was for a big revelation for me. Now i know what to do. :) Now seriously, do you really think that people here are not considered all of things you listed, and not trying to improve things in those directions? Also, do you have any idea how many man-hours it may require to implement all items in your list? And even if you can estimate it, do you have any idea where to find such massive amount of human resource for such activities? And most of all, are those people will work for free, based on their enthusiasm, or well paid? Because if you pay to people, then you having full right to demand things to be done right and in right term. But if you don't, then just please shut up and stop bashing people who doing everything for free, so you can use it paying NOTHING. So, next time you will say that you lost a bunch of money because of Pharo, i'd like to also see an attached figures the amount of money you invested into Pharo project. > tnx 4 understanding, Guido Stepken > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Feb. 14, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] cannot add repository in monticello

by Matias Garcia Isaia

Fabrizio, can you confirm if it's the same issue that happens with <http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5292> ? There's a slice there, maybe you can try if that fixes your problem. On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 3:02 PM, Fabrizio Perin <fabrizio.perin(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > I just tried to add a new repository in Monticello and I got an error: > the error is: > > MessageNotUndestood: FileDialogWindow>>directoriesFor: > > the repository I wanted to add was a directory. It seems to work in the case > you want to add a HTTP repository. > > The problem happen on the last Moose build (#830) and on a > Pharo1.4a > Latest update: #14331 > > downloaded from the pharo web site. > > Cheers, > Fabrizio

Feb. 14, 2012

[Pharo-project] cannot add repository in monticello

by Fabrizio Perin

Hi, I just tried to add a new repository in Monticello and I got an error: the error is: MessageNotUndestood: FileDialogWindow>>directoriesFor: the repository I wanted to add was a directory. It seems to work in the case you want to add a HTTP repository. The problem happen on the last Moose build (#830) and on a Pharo1.4a Latest update: #14331 downloaded from the pharo web site. Cheers, Fabrizio

Feb. 14, 2012

[Pharo-project] Nautilus Refactorings

by Benjamin

Hello guys, I know a some of you are waiting for the integration of the RB engine into Nautilus. Some of them are already implemented, so if you wanna test them, here is the gofer script Gofer new url: 'http://ss3.gemstone.com/ss/Nautilus'; package: 'ConfigurationOfNautilus'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfNautilusRefactoring) perform: #loadDefault It loads everything. For now I have only done some refactorings for classes, so if you popup the menu on a class, a new item named Refactoring should appear :) Moreover, the 'rename class' method is replaced by the RB one :) Thanks in advance for your feedback, and if you want to participate, you are more than welcome :) Ben

Feb. 14, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Are Objects really hard?

by Gary Chambers

Thankfully I did Smalltalk (V/DOS) at university, not looked back since... Regards, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence Kellogg To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 5:16 PM Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Are Objects really hard? Do you recall a talk Alan gave some years back at Stanford? He was on a good rant about how our computer science/engineering departments had let themselves be turned into Java certification mills, and ultimately uttered the words "what has happened to the mighty Standford?" I was a little surprised at his candor (took guts) and agreed with every word he said. Here is a reference to an interview Alan did with ACM where he mentions Java vocational training: http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1039523 " AK Yes, that was the big revelation to me when I was in graduate schoolâwhen I finally understood that the half page of code on the bottom of page 13 of the Lisp 1.5 manual was Lisp in itself. These were âMaxwellâs Equations of Software!â This is the whole world of programming in a few lines that I can put my hand over. I realized that anytime I want to know what Iâm doing, I can just write down the kernel of this thing in a half page and itâs not going to lose any power. In fact, itâs going to gain power by being able to reenter itself much more readily than most systems done the other way can possibly do. All of these ideas could be part of both software engineering and computer science, but I fearâas far as I can tellâthat most undergraduate degrees in computer science these days are basically Java vocational training. Iâve heard complaints from even mighty Stanford University with its illustrious faculty that basically the undergraduate computer science program is little more than Java certification. " I think goodness that my first computer science professor tore two pages out of the LISP manual and drummed it into our thick skulls that the whole execution cycle was contained in APPLY and EVAL. I owe that guy a lot. Thanks, Eddie Storm. Larry

Feb. 14, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Are Objects really hard?

by Guido Stepken

Hi Igor! This is not the point. Modern architectures have different goals in mind. Projected on Pharo, it means that: 1. Make Pharo nonblocking. Remove any locking, completely. 2. Make Pharo fast. Use "in situ algorithms", avoid any copying of data, objects, whatever. 3. Make Pharo "overload proof". Install selfprotecting algorithms. 4. Read Knuth, use advanced algothims. Modern architectures dont't need to GC (or rarely). "Objects not created do not to be garbage collected!" 5. Make any GC concurrent for no longer intererrupting the VM. 6. Make Pharo multithreaded. Even my mobile has 2 processors, ASUS prime tablet even has 5! 7. Drop COGVM. LVCC is able to post - jit, callback problem solved, MP-ready, e.t.c. 8. UNIT Testing is not enough. Continuous benchmarking and stress/overload tests belong to *every* serious software development process. 9. You develop on MacOS. Where in the world are webhosters using MacOS? Make it work stable on FreeBSD, Linux, Windows Server 2008 ... 10. Use Moose...whatever to detect possible deadlocks. This belongs to modern software development. 11. Offer a collaboration tool on Pharo, where Smalltalk hobbyists may help you refactoring ... a todo list .. 12. Same for translations. 13. Long time ago i posted a bug: "Wrong development process". Stef deleted my entry without understanding. tnx 4 understanding, Guido Stepken 2012/2/14 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> > On 14 February 2012 17:07, Guido Stepken <gstepken(a)googlemail.com> wrote: > > Am 14.02.2012 16:57, schrieb Igor Stasenko: > > > >> On 14 February 2012 15:07, Hernan Wilkinson > >> <hernan.wilkinson(a)10pines.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> Well... this is an example of what the "thread" was about at the > >>> beginning... that is, the lack of knowledge on software development... > I > >>> you > >>> have known a little bit about architecture, multi-threading and vm > >>> implementation, you would quickly realize that pharo will not scale as > a > >>> server. Squeak (where pharo comes from) was not design/implemented to > be > >>> used as a server (and please, don not take this bad, I don't want to > >>> be unworthy with Pharo because it is changing and getting better with > >>> every > >>> realease) > >>> > >> There's no reason to take it bad, because you stating the truth. > >> > >>> So, if you want to do a "serious enterprise" application, you should > have > >>> used and architecture prepare for that such as GemStone (GLASS in this > >>> case)... it is a pity you lost so much money due to you "lack" of > >>> knowledge. > >>> > >> People who taking it serious also first discover the area of > possibility, > >> which implies talking to people and asking questions. > >> > >> I never seen from Guido questions like "does it scales if i run it > >> standalone etc". > >> And that means that he's not any serious with his harsh statements, > >> just trolling. > >> > > > > Lookup Google "Pharo hanging" ... very few companies are really using > Pharo, > > but i am not the only one reporting this. > > > Look for "rails hanging" - ~ 11 million hits > Look for "C# hanging" , java hanging etc > > now if this is the only criteria, on which you basing your choice, > then i feel sorry for you, because you cannot use any software made in > this world. > > so, have fun hacking. > > > Tnx for the "troll". > > > > Have fun hacking, Guido Stepken > > > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. > >

Feb. 14, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Are Objects really hard?

by Lawrence Kellogg

> > Do you recall a talk Alan gave some years back at Stanford? He was on a good rant about how our computer science/engineering departments had let themselves be turned into Java certification mills, and ultimately uttered the words "what has happened to the mighty Standford?" I was a little surprised at his candor (took guts) and agreed with every word he said. > Here is a reference to an interview Alan did with ACM where he mentions Java vocational training: http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1039523 " AK Yes, that was the big revelation to me when I was in graduate schoolâwhen I finally understood that the half page of code on the bottom of page 13 of the Lisp 1.5 manual was Lisp in itself. These were âMaxwellâs Equations of Software!â This is the whole world of programming in a few lines that I can put my hand over. I realized that anytime I want to know what Iâm doing, I can just write down the kernel of this thing in a half page and itâs not going to lose any power. In fact, itâs going to gain power by being able to reenter itself much more readily than most systems done the other way can possibly do. All of these ideas could be part of both software engineering and computer science, but I fearâas far as I can tellâthat most undergraduate degrees in computer science these days are basically Java vocational training. Iâve heard complaints from even mighty Stanford University with its illustrious faculty that basically the undergraduate computer science program is little more than Java certification. " I think goodness that my first computer science professor tore two pages out of the LISP manual and drummed it into our thick skulls that the whole execution cycle was contained in APPLY and EVAL. I owe that guy a lot. Thanks, Eddie Storm. Larry

Feb. 14, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Are Objects really hard?

by Igor Stasenko

On 14 February 2012 17:07, Guido Stepken <gstepken(a)googlemail.com> wrote: > Am 14.02.2012 16:57, schrieb Igor Stasenko: > >> On 14 February 2012 15:07, Hernan Wilkinson >> <hernan.wilkinson(a)10pines.com> Â wrote: >>> >>> Well... this is an example of what the "thread" was about at the >>> beginning... that is, the lack of knowledge on software development... I >>> you >>> have known a little bit about architecture, multi-threading and vm >>> implementation, you would quickly realize that pharo will not scale as a >>> server. Squeak (where pharo comes from) was not design/implemented to be >>> used as a server (and please, don not take this bad, I don't want to >>> be unworthy with Pharo because it is changing and getting better with >>> every >>> realease) >>> >> There's no reason to take it bad, because you stating the truth. >> >>> So, if you want to do a "serious enterprise" application, you should have >>> used and architecture prepare for that such as GemStone (GLASS in this >>> case)... it is a pity you lost so much money due to you "lack" of >>> knowledge. >>> >> People who taking it serious also first discover the area of possibility, >> which implies talking to people and asking questions. >> >> I never seen from Guido questions like "does it scales if i run it >> standalone etc". >> And that means that he's not any serious with his harsh statements, >> just trolling. >> > > Lookup Google "Pharo hanging" ... very few companies are really using Pharo, > but i am not the only one reporting this. > Look for "rails hanging" - ~ 11 million hits Look for "C# hanging" , java hanging etc now if this is the only criteria, on which you basing your choice, then i feel sorry for you, because you cannot use any software made in this world. so, have fun hacking. > Tnx for the "troll". > > Have fun hacking, Guido Stepken > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Feb. 14, 2012