May 2011 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Personalized systems with Treated

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

>> The problem with those other repositories is that they are for specific >> uses, as Stef said in other post, the Treated repository is for packages >> integrated in current Pharo. So, of course you could post some package >> there but it wont belongs to there really. > > I don't see getting more use out of something than for what it was > originally intended as a "problem". I was just getting the work done > to quell the complaining for Magma coming from that side.. but why don't you have a pharo package in the magma repo? > >> This workaround it could be better implemented if the package with >> specific changes will be pushed to some dedicated compatibility >> repository where everyone can push every package and use it in their >> install procedures. That would be better. > > Sure, that could be an incremental step but I wasn't in a position at > the time to go lobbying to the Pharo group for a new repository; I > just needed to get Magma done for Pharo'ites. > > Question: When is anything in "Treated" ever "consumed"? If it's not > ever consumed, it's wasting space, so why not delete it? This is traceability and merge purpose. But I would not publish package to treated inbox if I would be you because we can remove everything one day You do not put your wallet in your trashcan don't you? > I'm more interested to know the answers to these questions: > > - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires a > one-line change to a core system method that is not acceptable to the > Pharo gods? - virgin sacrified on altar is the first step. - second step is to have one package name magma-pharo containing the extensions/changes How grease does it? how any monticello does it with any others? Moose Core is extended sometimes by 5 other packages and this is working perfectly (except for state) > - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that loads code from > external web-sites? initialize methods? > - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires external > graphics, videos, XML or other resources? initialize methods? > - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires an > object-graph to be loaded internally into the image that was pre-built > using another tool (e.g., NOT generated via code)? initialize methods? > These questions are much more important to me than "it isn't a package > management system". If Metacello could do all of these things, I > might be interested.. did you read the postLoadAction? Chris. Metacello scripts are object specs and to me this is just great because they are objects and with objects we can do a lot. Checking, transforming...... So of course hacking a little script is fast and Metacello requires some care but I can tell you that for us this is **hyper** important (and not just as some person may think because we like complex stuff - because this is plain wrong) because Metacello are first class ***objects*** scripts. Now you can not look at it too. I wrote with dale 35 pages documentation and I should do another pass. I think that what Dale is doing is **EXTREMELY** important to manage the complexity. When we did 3.9 and used MC for the first time we were really aware that packages wihtout a package management system could kill the system (which version of x is working with k kind of nightmare) and metacello answer that question and support different development process. Stef

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Personalized systems with Treated

by Miguel CobÃ¡

El jue, 05-05-2011 a las 13:02 -0500, Chris Muller escribiÃ³: > Well, I'm 0-2 so far from the replies understanding the point of my > story.. Oh well. > > > The problem with those other repositories is that they are for specific > > uses, as Stef said in other post, the Treated repository is for packages > > integrated in current Pharo. So, of course you could post some package > > there but it wont belongs to there really. > > I don't see getting more use out of something than for what it was > originally intended as a "problem". I was just getting the work done > to quell the complaining for Magma coming from that side.. > > > This workaround it could be better implemented if the package with > > specific changes will be pushed to some dedicated compatibility > > repository where everyone can push every package and use it in their > > install procedures. That would be better. > > Sure, that could be an incremental step but I wasn't in a position at > the time to go lobbying to the Pharo group for a new repository; I > just needed to get Magma done for Pharo'ites. > > Question: When is anything in "Treated" ever "consumed"? If it's not > ever consumed, it's wasting space, so why not delete it? For the same reason that the Treated repository from Squeak isn't deleted, for historical references. That doesn't means that we should put there what one wants. (well, not that rude, just that as is so easy to create our own repo, isn't well seen if we put packages in others' repos) > > > Now, lets remember that for Pharo at lease, backwards compatibility is a > > "great to have" feature not a "must have at all means" feature. So if > > Actually that describes Squeak's philosophy; they just do it in a > slower, more-incremental nature. > > > Other thing, we really don't like changesets or gofer scripts for > > installing anything on Pharo (even if we really like gofer). Why? > > Because they aren't a package management system. > > Exactly; philosophical instead of practical.. More than philosophical I think. A script can reflect over itself A metacello configuration class can. Text vs class. Unless you put a parser to work, that is extra work. > > >The end result could be the same: the packages are installed in the system, that is granted, but > > the capability of Metacello of declaring which other configurations it > > depends on and the one of querying the configuration to see the full > > list of packages to be installed is something that no gofer script, > > installer script or SqueakMap feature can handle right now without > > downloading everything to check. > > Not true. SqueakMap load scripts specify which other prerequisite > configurations are required and merges them, as needed, from SqueakMap > itself. See Magma or Maui as an example. Those prerequisite configs > can be browsed before loading, if desired. Yes, I saw the scripts for Magma and I see check for specific classes to test if they exist in the image (if they are installed): [Smalltalk at: #MagmaTestCase] ifFalse: [ "install other mcz" ] > > I'm more interested to know the answers to these questions: > > - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires a > one-line change to a core system method that is not acceptable to the > Pharo gods? The same tha squeak for changes that aren't accepted/belongs to/are too specific to an application. You include them as an *mypackage extension in some package of yours and then when the mcz is installed, the extension is installed too. That is just monticello as always. > > - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that loads code from > external web-sites? Using doIts if necessary. Or specifying some other repo to fetch mcz things from. A metacello configuration can have any nnumber of origin repositories to fetch mcz from and then install them in the image. For resources like images and so, the doIts can have HTTPClient to download and serialize to the image as needed. Smalltalk at the point of your fingers. > > - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires external > graphics, videos, XML or other resources? Idem. > > - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires an > object-graph to be loaded internally into the image that was pre-built > using another tool (e.g., NOT generated via code)? Don't understand the example But for loading external data that is in a suitable form to load you can use a postLoad doit to open (or download the data) and then bring it into the image, creating objects on the fly. You can load binary data if you want (SIXX, whatever) or text data (XML,JSON,etc) at the end is smalltalk in a doIt doing the work. > > These questions are much more important to me than "it isn't a package > management system". If Metacello could do all of these things, I > might be interested.. I think it does those things, maybe a second look at the existings configurations can clear a lot of doubts. I have a doubt. the metacello configuration can have groups that install specific mcz of the full list of mcz that Seaside have to install just what you need. How will that be made with scripts and SqueakMap? Regards > > Regards, > Chris -- Miguel CobÃ¡ http://twitter.com/MiguelCobaMtz http://miguel.leugim.com.mx

May 5, 2011

[Pharo-project] [COTDC] 60 - DirectoryURI

by laurent laffont

Today: DirectoryURI Comment Of The Day Contest - One Day One Comment Rules: #1: Each day a not commented class is elected. Each day the best comment will be integrated with name of the author(s). #2: If you cannot comment it, deprecate it. Results: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/CommentOfTheDayContest Laurent

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Making cr to autocomplete as well as tab (in Pharo 1.3)

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

yes I asked romain to bind the auto complete to enter and we removed it. Now probably having one setting would be good. Stef On May 5, 2011, at 6:00 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: > Hi, > > This is not great at all. Please read this before going forward. > > We had this in OCompletion before and then it got changed to not use CR for a reason. The problem is when using fluent APIs that are best read when written on multiple lines. For example, suppose that I want to type something like this in Glamour: > > ... > a tree > display: [ ... ] > > After typing "a tree", the first proposed item is "treeLayout" (see the attached picture). If I press enter to go to the next line "tree" is replaced with "treeLayout" and this is not the behavior I want. > > The problem is that CR has a useful meaning when typing a piece of text and this makes it not good as a completion character. Tab on the other hand, is only used in Smalltalk at the beginning of an empty line so there is no danger of overloading its functionality in the middle of a text. > > > Now, if you insist, I still believe there is a place for CR. Completion has two modes: > 1. one in which I write and the completion offers me something, and > 2. one in which I am after I press the down arrow to select some completion item. > > For 1. you do not want to have CR as a completion character. For 2. it is probably ok because you enter explicitly in a temporary mode and thus you are not typing anymore and this will not induce the conflict. > > Cheers, > Doru > > > <example-glamour-fluent-api.png> > > > > On 5 May 2011, at 17:37, Thierry Lebourque wrote: > >> That is really great! >> Many thanks >> >> 2011/5/5 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: >>> Hi, i just found inconvenient that for autocompletion i should press >>> tab all the time >>> while i tend to always hit enter, which instead of pasting suggestion, >>> inserts cr into text. >>> >>> So i hacked a lil piece of code to make autocompletion to insert >>> suggested text when you pressing either tab or cr >>> >>> -- >>> Best regards, >>> Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >>> >> > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Reasonable is what we are accustomed with." >

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] [COTDC] 59 - HierarchicalURI

by laurent laffont

Thanks CÃ©drick. May be the right comment is: See URI ? Laurent. On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 2:11 PM, CÃ©drick BÃ©ler <cdrick65(a)gmail.com> wrote: > part taken from URI class comment: > > "A hierarchical URI is either an absolute URI whose scheme-specific part > begins with a slash character, or a relative URI, that is, a URI that does > not specify a scheme. Some examples of hierarchical URIs are: > > http://www.pharo-project.org/home > file:///~/calendar > > A hierarchical URI is subject to further parsing according to the syntax > [scheme:][//authority][path][?query][#fragment] > where the characters :, /, ?, and # stand for themselves. The > scheme-specific part of a hierarchical URI consists of the characters > between the scheme and fragment parts. > > The authority part of a hierarchical URI is, if specified, either > server-based or registry-based. A server-based authority parses according to > the syntax > [user-info@]host[:port] > where the characters @ and : stand for themselves. Nearly all URI schemes > currently in use are server-based. An authority part that does not parse in > this way is considered to be registry-based. > > The path component of a hierarchical URI is itself said to be absolute if > it begins with a slash character ('/'); otherwise it is relative. The path > of a hierarchical URI that is either absolute or specifies an authority is > always absolute." > > > Le 4 mai 2011 Ã 21:20, laurent laffont a Ã©crit : > > Today: HierarchicalURI > > > Comment Of The Day Contest - One Day One Comment > Rules: > #1: Each day a not commented class is elected. Each day the best comment > will be integrated with name of the author(s). > #2: If you cannot comment it, deprecate it. > Results: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/CommentOfTheDayContest > > Laurent > > >

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] new Cog VMs uploaded

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

this is why you often see dual licensing GPL/buying a license. So it makes sense. Licences are tools to shape your business model Now for pharo this is MIT because if you want you can run out with it and sell it for a lot of money :) Stef >>>>> You have it backwards. There is *no* GPL code in OpenQwaq. If there had >> been the whole project would have had to become GPL and Teleplace could not >> have protected itself against others using the code. By releasing the code >> as GPL Teleplace's investors retain the sole commercial rights to the code. >> No-one else can use the code without their contributions becoming GPL. >> Hence no-one wanting to do commercial development using OpenQwaq can do so >> and protect their contributions. Teleplace's investors, however, /can/ >> subsequently sell or exploit commercial rights to the code, which they still >> hold. > > Ah, yes.. sorry. i'm not expert in this legal stuff anyways :) > Thanks for explanation. > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >

May 5, 2011

[Pharo-project] [update 1.3] #13183

by laurent laffont

13183 ----- Issue #4132: - LongTest are run by default (so they will be run by Hudson) - Add a setting in System / Run Long Test to enable / disable them - Comment Laurent

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Personalized systems with Treated

by Chris Muller

Well, I'm 0-2 so far from the replies understanding the point of my story.. Oh well. > The problem with those other repositories is that they are for specific > uses, as Stef said in other post, the Treated repository is for packages > integrated in current Pharo. So, of course you could post some package > there but it wont belongs to there really. I don't see getting more use out of something than for what it was originally intended as a "problem". I was just getting the work done to quell the complaining for Magma coming from that side.. > This workaround it could be better implemented if the package with > specific changes will be pushed to some dedicated compatibility > repository where everyone can push every package and use it in their > install procedures. That would be better. Sure, that could be an incremental step but I wasn't in a position at the time to go lobbying to the Pharo group for a new repository; I just needed to get Magma done for Pharo'ites. Question: When is anything in "Treated" ever "consumed"? If it's not ever consumed, it's wasting space, so why not delete it? > Now, lets remember that for Pharo at lease, backwards compatibility is a > "great to have" feature not a "must have at all means" feature. So if Actually that describes Squeak's philosophy; they just do it in a slower, more-incremental nature. > Other thing, we really don't like changesets or gofer scripts for > installing anything on Pharo (even if we really like gofer). Why? > Because they aren't a package management system. Exactly; philosophical instead of practical.. >The end result could be the same: the packages are installed in the system, that is granted, but > the capability of Metacello of declaring which other configurations it > depends on and the one of querying the configuration to see the full > list of packages to be installed is something that no gofer script, > installer script or SqueakMap feature can handle right now without > downloading everything to check. Not true. SqueakMap load scripts specify which other prerequisite configurations are required and merges them, as needed, from SqueakMap itself. See Magma or Maui as an example. Those prerequisite configs can be browsed before loading, if desired. I'm more interested to know the answers to these questions: - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires a one-line change to a core system method that is not acceptable to the Pharo gods? - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that loads code from external web-sites? - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires external graphics, videos, XML or other resources? - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires an object-graph to be loaded internally into the image that was pre-built using another tool (e.g., NOT generated via code)? These questions are much more important to me than "it isn't a package management system". If Metacello could do all of these things, I might be interested.. Regards, Chris

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Making cr to autocomplete as well as tab (in Pharo 1.3)

by Alexandre Bergel

+1 Well said Doru Alexandre On 5 May 2011, at 12:00, Tudor Girba wrote: > Hi, > > This is not great at all. Please read this before going forward. > > We had this in OCompletion before and then it got changed to not use CR for a reason. The problem is when using fluent APIs that are best read when written on multiple lines. For example, suppose that I want to type something like this in Glamour: > > ... > a tree > display: [ ... ] > > After typing "a tree", the first proposed item is "treeLayout" (see the attached picture). If I press enter to go to the next line "tree" is replaced with "treeLayout" and this is not the behavior I want. > > The problem is that CR has a useful meaning when typing a piece of text and this makes it not good as a completion character. Tab on the other hand, is only used in Smalltalk at the beginning of an empty line so there is no danger of overloading its functionality in the middle of a text. > > > Now, if you insist, I still believe there is a place for CR. Completion has two modes: > 1. one in which I write and the completion offers me something, and > 2. one in which I am after I press the down arrow to select some completion item. > > For 1. you do not want to have CR as a completion character. For 2. it is probably ok because you enter explicitly in a temporary mode and thus you are not typing anymore and this will not induce the conflict. > > Cheers, > Doru > > > <example-glamour-fluent-api.png> > > > > On 5 May 2011, at 17:37, Thierry Lebourque wrote: > >> That is really great! >> Many thanks >> >> 2011/5/5 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: >>> Hi, i just found inconvenient that for autocompletion i should press >>> tab all the time >>> while i tend to always hit enter, which instead of pasting suggestion, >>> inserts cr into text. >>> >>> So i hacked a lil piece of code to make autocompletion to insert >>> suggested text when you pressing either tab or cr >>> >>> -- >>> Best regards, >>> Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >>> >> > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Reasonable is what we are accustomed with." > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] new Cog VMs uploaded

by Igor Stasenko

On 5 May 2011 18:24, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 5:33 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> On 4 May 2011 23:39, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> > Hi chris >> > >> > >> >> You should be able to extract the code and use it in Pharo/Squeak >> >> without issue, even if it is GPL. Â What you can't do is include it in >> >> the distribution, since it isn't MIT. Â You also shouldn't study the >> >> code and write your own version of it - I believe that would be a >> >> derivative work, which would likely make it a GPL derivative. >> > >> > so it does not exist and this is better because GPL is viral and we do >> > not want it. >> > >> >> I finding it really funny that GPL were invented to help open-source >> to rise and spread, >> and now its just stands in your way, as any other closed-source >> proprietary one... >> >> >> However, if it was extracted, and you brought it in to do profiling, >> >> and then removed it afterwards, that shouldn't be an issue at all. >> >> Just remember to remove it after you no longer need it - that way the >> >> GPL code won't accidentally creep into the Pharo/Squeak code-base. >> >> >> >> Basically, this would be a great example of a project that should be >> >> an external project and not part of core (or dev). >> > >> > the problem is that this kind of philosophy goes against the spirit of >> > smalltalk >> > of been able to read and learn the code and modify it. >> >> >> I think that Teleplace has not much choice under which license to >> release this code, >> because as long as you using even portion of GPL-ed code, you are >> forced to use GPL as well. > > You have it backwards. Â There is *no* GPL code in OpenQwaq. Â If there had > been the whole project would have had to become GPL and Teleplace could not > have protected itself against others using the code. Â By releasing the code > as GPL Teleplace's investors retain the sole commercial rights to the code. > Â No-one else can use the code without their contributions becoming GPL. > Â Hence no-one wanting to do commercial development using OpenQwaq can do so > and protect their contributions. Â Teleplace's investors, however, /can/ > subsequently sell or exploit commercial rights to the code, which they still > hold. Ah, yes.. sorry. i'm not expert in this legal stuff anyways :) Thanks for explanation. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

May 5, 2011