February 2010 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

[Pharo-project] Pharo by Example is back on Lulu

by Oscar Nierstrasz

Hi Folks, After much pain, PBE is back on Lulu: http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/pharo-by-example/7522128 The problem seems to have been caused by embedded PDF figures, which messed up the fonts on several pages. By turning all th efigures into embedded PNGs, the problem finally went away. Cheers, - on

Feb. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Why a package management system

by GÃ¶ran Krampe

Hi! Torsten Bergmann wrote: >> So you are educating them.... >> Frankly I stopped trying long time ago. > > No, I just tell them what I think is necessary to move forward. > Other may be more educated here, it is just sharing MHO so others > can to form an own opinion. Right, discussion is good. And believe me - the squeak-dev community is NOT oblivious to the needs of a package system. I mean, come on, Monticello, SqueakMap, Universes etc etc - it all was around before Pharo was born. What I have seen so far in Metacello is indeed nothing new - the senarios and discussions about dependencies etc go loooong way back. BUT... that *doesn't* mean I am passing any judgment on Metacello - IMHO all efforts are good per definition! :) I haven't formed an opinion myself. >> I think it would be much more ... "becoming" (and fruitful) if we all >> could stop "trash talking" each other - especially those of us who play >> a "larger role". > > +1 Thank you. > Meanwhile the Pharo community has grown with new members and many people > dont care about old discussions. > > Let's use our energy to move forward and (if possible) share as much > knowledge and code as long as parts of our communities overlap. Yes, exactly. > I therefore would really like to see a common exchange mechanism used > on both sides. > > I'm sure I'm not able to convince one or the other to use package > systems like Metacello but at least I hope to make them think about > the need of a more modular system. Ehm, "a more modular system" has been on the table since... hell, way back to Squeak 3.3! And yeah, even earlier of course - you can probably track it back to PARC if you try hard. :) :) Anyway, "common exchange mechanism" - I am working on Deltastreams which I even presented at Brest, though unfortunately colliding with the Seaside tutorial. Deltas and Deltastreams are indeed focused on EXACTLY this problem (fork interchange), and it was born in 2007: http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2007-August/119471.h… I and Igor are the ones working on it - and after Brest we have had very little time to move it forward. I still think it is a very important piece of the puzzle though. regards, GÃ¶ran

Feb. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Why a package management system

by GÃ¶ran Krampe

Hi! StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > You are probably right. I should not read squeak-dev anymore I spent my time trying to show > that there is NO contradiction between innovation/fun and good and clean system. > But I'm not fun enough or smart enough. > > Stef (a etoy haters that was so stupid that he translated the book of etoy in french, > an idiot that wrote most of the squeak books available right now, one of the four amigos that created the squeak foundation, > a guy that did this stupid squeak 3.9 - you know stef this guy without any vision that just wants a > "commercial smalltalk" puck! No innovation just plain engineering ....) First you write "You are probably right" and then you write the above, you just can't stop can you? :) regards, GÃ¶ran

Feb. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Monticello repos when adding packages

by GermÃ¡n Arduino

Thanks Eliot. 2010/2/22 Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> > or add the attached which add a 'add to package...' to a selected package > > > > On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 4:17 AM, Gary Chambers <gazzaguru2(a)btinternet.com>wrote: > >> Create your package, deselect any package. >> Pick your existing repository spec. >> Choose "add to package..." from the repo popup menu. >> >> Regards, Gary >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "GermÃ¡n Arduino" <garduino(a)gmail.com> >> To: <Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr> >> Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 12:00 PM >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Monticello repos when adding packages >> >> >> 2010/2/21 Torsten Bergmann <astares(a)gmx.de>: >> > Hi, >> > >> > in Monticello: >> > >> > - when you open the browser you see a list of known >> > repositories >> > - when I select "+Package" and enter the name >> > of a new package the right pane only shows >> > the package-cache as valid repo and I have >> > to add the repository using "+Repository" >> > again - even when it is already known to the system >> > >> >> Yes, is an annoying "feature". I don't know if exist another way, >> but indeed, is not a good behaviour. >> >> >> > Confusing, isnt it? Or is there an easier way? >> > >> > Thx >> > T. >> > >> >> Cheers. >> GermÃ¡n. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Feb. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Monticello repos when adding packages

by GermÃ¡n Arduino

Thanks Gary. I was not aware of this option. GermÃ¡n. 2010/2/22 Gary Chambers <gazzaguru2(a)btinternet.com> > Create your package, deselect any package. > Pick your existing repository spec. > Choose "add to package..." from the repo popup menu. > > Regards, Gary > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "GermÃ¡n Arduino" <garduino(a)gmail.com> > To: <Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr> > Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 12:00 PM > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Monticello repos when adding packages > > > 2010/2/21 Torsten Bergmann <astares(a)gmx.de>: > > Hi, > > > > in Monticello: > > > > - when you open the browser you see a list of known > > repositories > > - when I select "+Package" and enter the name > > of a new package the right pane only shows > > the package-cache as valid repo and I have > > to add the repository using "+Repository" > > again - even when it is already known to the system > > > > Yes, is an annoying "feature". I don't know if exist another way, > but indeed, is not a good behaviour. > > > > Confusing, isnt it? Or is there an easier way? > > > > Thx > > T. > > > > Cheers. > GermÃ¡n. > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- ================================================= GermÃ¡n S. Arduino <gsa @ arsol.net> Twitter: garduino Arduino Software & Web Hosting http://www.arduinosoftware.com PasswordsPro http://www.passwordspro.com =================================================

Feb. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Why a package management system

by GermÃ¡n Arduino

2010/2/23 Torsten Bergmann <astares(a)gmx.de> > >So you are educating them.... > >Frankly I stopped trying long time ago. > > No, I just tell them what I think is necessary to move forward. > Other may be more educated here, it is just sharing MHO so others > can to form an own opinion. > > Your mail is excellent and show very well the advantages of work with Metacello. When I read the first article about Metacello don't figured out is power until I invested some time to learn it and developed some "ConfigurationOf..." and currently I think is an invaluable tool that help to put Pharo/Squeak at the "next level" :) > Let's use our energy to move forward and (if possible) share as much > knowledge and code as long as parts of our communities overlap. > > I therefore would really like to see a common exchange mechanism used > on both sides. > > I'm sure I'm not able to convince one or the other to use package > systems like Metacello but at least I hope to make them think about > the need of a more modular system. > > Package systems are needed to professional development and I think that Metacello is a very good tool. I'm happily using it. GermÃ¡n.

Feb. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Why a package management system

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Goran another meta remark :) may be some people said in squeak-dev that we were not these bad guys after all and that we did some great stuff after all even if this was bitcounting and cleaning the dust bean and were kind of somehow right but I do not remember having seen people saying sometimes when we are implicitly mentioned in bad press. But this is life :) Stef Let me repeat myself again: I would love to see smalltalk/pharo used to do advanced UI, multitouch software, advanced multimedia applications, and any kind of advanced on the edge experimental attempt to change the world. I would love to convince my colleague http://insitu.lri.fr/metisse/ that smalltalk is as good as Python and C++ for that. For use there was never any opposition between good software engineering practices and innovation.

Feb. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Why a package management system

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Torsten Bergmann <astares(a)gmx.de> wrote: > >Maybe I am wrong, but I think that you SHOULDN'T be aware of the order. I > >mean, you should be able to write all the spec package > > No, you are right. Usually in a PMS you just tell the dependencies and the > load order is defined by the system based on that description. But I tried > to be as > close to the "Installer" script example as possible, so it was intended to > use both interchangable in this context (although there is the noted > difference). > Ahh okok. Prefect, we agree :) > > >Thanks again for this wonderful answer. I will incorporate most of that in > >the Metacello chapter. Can I ? > > No problem. AFAIK posting to the lists are now MIT ;) > > hahahhahahah thanks! > Bye > T. > > > > > -- > NEU: Mit GMX DSL Ã¼ber 1000,- Â¿ sparen! > http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Feb. 23, 2010

[Pharo-project] Why a package management system

by Torsten Bergmann

>Maybe I am wrong, but I think that you SHOULDN'T be aware of the order. I >mean, you should be able to write all the spec package No, you are right. Usually in a PMS you just tell the dependencies and the load order is defined by the system based on that description. But I tried to be as close to the "Installer" script example as possible, so it was intended to use both interchangable in this context (although there is the noted difference). >Thanks again for this wonderful answer. I will incorporate most of that in >the Metacello chapter. Can I ? No problem. AFAIK posting to the lists are now MIT ;) Bye T. -- NEU: Mit GMX DSL Ã¼ber 1000,- Â¿ sparen! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02

Feb. 23, 2010

[Pharo-project] Why a package management system

by Torsten Bergmann

>So you are educating them.... >Frankly I stopped trying long time ago. No, I just tell them what I think is necessary to move forward. Other may be more educated here, it is just sharing MHO so others can to form an own opinion. >I think it would be much more ... "becoming" (and fruitful) if we all >could stop "trash talking" each other - especially those of us who play >a "larger role". +1 Meanwhile the Pharo community has grown with new members and many people dont care about old discussions. Let's use our energy to move forward and (if possible) share as much knowledge and code as long as parts of our communities overlap. I therefore would really like to see a common exchange mechanism used on both sides. I'm sure I'm not able to convince one or the other to use package systems like Metacello but at least I hope to make them think about the need of a more modular system. Bye T. "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." -- Sicherer, schneller und einfacher. Die aktuellen Internet-Browser - jetzt kostenlos herunterladen! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/atbrowser

Feb. 23, 2010