September 2008 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [Seaside-dev] preliminary Seaside 2.9 alpha universe

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Sep 26, 2008, at 5:03 PM, Damien Cassou wrote: > On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 8:26 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse > <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> - For example I would like to have a real look at MC1.6 but the >> message around it is blurry > > MC1.6 is not the topic here. Still this is the same :). It is a communication problem and what people see from you. > > >> I tried LFP and it broke on me. > > It worked fine for me. You may want to try again and send bug report > to Keith who answered all my emails. Did you check what LFP is doing? I would like to know that. Because the point is not that it would not be working but what are the stuff it brings in. >> - I like installer but when I look at the code I would like to >> refactor it. > > The code may not be perfect but it works fine. I don't think Keith > would ignore our enhancements to his code. We decided to refactor it :) > > > >> - There is no document in a nice format that explain why and how (i'm >> fixing that for installer and I was waiting because I will refactor >> it else I do not publish the chapter but I did not want to insult >> keith since this is not the point since I like installer). > > > This is not fair. There is "no document in a nice format that > explains" most of the tools you use everyday. But you still use them. > The more people use a tool, the best chance you have to get > documentation. Moreover, Keith and Matthew wrote a lot of things in > pbwiki, squeak wiki and mailing lists. Come on I said that I'm writing a chapter. I can't do more. >> - unknown is strange :) > > Should not be for us Squeakers and Pharoers. > >> - So if you want to help me I would love to have a >> - Installer code refactored >> - Installer chapter >> - Sake (have a look at the code) >> - Sake Chapter for the book > > I would love that too > > -- > Damien Cassou > Peter von der AhÃ©: Â«I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good > luckÂ». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu) > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Sept. 26, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [Seaside-dev] preliminary Seaside 2.9 alpha universe

by Damien Cassou

On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Janko MivÅ¡ek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> wrote: > I think you answered already: no GUI, no integration with tools. I see that > as the only obstacle to a broader acceptance of Keith's work. For a long time, debian linux systems did not have any GUI to manage their packages. Still, their packaging system was used by thousands of people from the command line. Sake/packages makes installing packages very easy from the command line. No doubt that if more people use it, a gui will appear. What do you mean by no integration with tools and how does it differ from universes? -- Damien Cassou Peter von der AhÃ©: Â«I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good luckÂ». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu)

Sept. 26, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [Seaside-dev] preliminary Seaside 2.9 alpha universe

by Damien Cassou

On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 8:38 AM, Lukas Renggli <renggli(a)gmail.com> wrote: > One problem I see with Sake/Packages is that these tools depend on a > lot of other packages, that I don't necessarily want to have loaded in > my images: Logging, Rio, Installer, Sake, Packages ... > > I guess one could argue the same with XML and Universe. This is the only argument against Sake/Packages I guess. Keith, could you please give us more information on that? - what mcz do we need to load exactly to have universes features using Sake/Packages? - is LPF necessary? >> You can define a package with non-specific versions, i.e. to load the >> latest seaside when keeping up with the bleeding edge. > > This sounds very suspicious. That can't reliably work with standard > Monticello, all projects I know use multiple branches at some point. Keith does not mean you *must* use it :-). This is a feature that can be useful for some small packages. > I agree that Universes is not the ultimate solution, but at least it > seems to work reasonably well. I like the declarative way to > specifying package dependencies. Sake/Packages is just about that: a declarative way to specify packages. Nothing more. And there is a script which converts a Universe to a set of tasks. It works very well and Keith uses it often to update Packages from Universes. An example for PierBlog: PackagesSqueak310U>>PierBlog self name: 'Pier-Blog'. self version: '1.0.16.73'. info category: 'Web Development'. info description: 'Pier blog plugin.'. info maintainer: 'Lukas Renggli <renggli(a)gmail.com>'. info homepage: 'http://www.lukas-renggli.ch/smalltalk/pier'. info squeakMapID: ''. info url: 'http://mc.lukas-renggli.ch/pier/Pier-Blog-lr.73.mcz'. self provides: #(). self dependsOn: #('Pier-Seaside' 'RSRSS2'). self load: [ Installer installUrl:'http://mc.lukas-renggli.ch/pier/Pier-Blog-lr.73.mcz'. ]. self unload: [ Installer mc unload: 'Pier-Blog'. ]. -- Damien Cassou Peter von der AhÃ©: Â«I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good luckÂ». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu)

Sept. 26, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [Seaside-dev] preliminary Seaside 2.9 alpha universe

by Damien Cassou

On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 8:26 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > - For example I would like to have a real look at MC1.6 but the > message around it is blurry MC1.6 is not the topic here. > I tried LFP and it broke on me. It worked fine for me. You may want to try again and send bug report to Keith who answered all my emails. > - I like installer but when I look at the code I would like to refactor it. The code may not be perfect but it works fine. I don't think Keith would ignore our enhancements to his code. > - There is no document in a nice format that explain why and how (i'm > fixing that for installer and I was waiting because I will refactor it else I do not publish the chapter but I did not want to insult keith since this is not the point since I like installer). This is not fair. There is "no document in a nice format that explains" most of the tools you use everyday. But you still use them. The more people use a tool, the best chance you have to get documentation. Moreover, Keith and Matthew wrote a lot of things in pbwiki, squeak wiki and mailing lists. > - unknown is strange :) Should not be for us Squeakers and Pharoers. > - So if you want to help me I would love to have a > - Installer code refactored > - Installer chapter > - Sake (have a look at the code) > - Sake Chapter for the book I would love that too -- Damien Cassou Peter von der AhÃ©: Â«I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good luckÂ». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu)

Sept. 26, 2008

[Pharo-project] Interesting news

by Bill Schwab

Hello all, Have a look at: http://www.object-arts.com/content/news/excitingNews.html Object Arts and Lesser Software are collaborating on a new version of Dolphin. They are still sticking to the Windows-only angle, which I find disappointing. However, even if they hold to that, we are better off keeping and enhancing what I consider to be the best development environment I have ever used. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 273-6785 FAX: (352) 392-7029

Sept. 26, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [Seaside-dev] preliminary Seaside 2.9 alpha universe

by Janko MivÅ¡ek

Damien Cassou wrote: > On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 12:19 AM, Keith Hodges <keith_hodges(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >> Do have a look at Sake/Packages equivalent to universes. > > I agree with Keith. Sake/Packages have all the features of universes > without a GUI but provide an easy way to define your own universe as > you did with Seaside and as you want to do with Pharo (just need to > create a new subclass IIUC). I don't understand why people don't want > to look at this solution (it's not about you Seaside developers, it's > about the whole community. Some told me they would stop using my > dev-images if I use Sake/Packages without giving any good reason). I > hope Keith won't give up. I think you answered already: no GUI, no integration with tools. I see that as the only obstacle to a broader acceptance of Keith's work. JAnko -- Janko MivÅ¡ek AIDA/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si

Sept. 26, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [Seaside-dev] preliminary Seaside 2.9 alpha universe

by Lukas Renggli

> about the whole community. Some told me they would stop using my > dev-images if I use Sake/Packages without giving any good reason). I > hope Keith won't give up. One problem I see with Sake/Packages is that these tools depend on a lot of other packages, that I don't necessarily want to have loaded in my images: Logging, Rio, Installer, Sake, Packages ... I guess one could argue the same with XML and Universe. > You can define a package with non-specific versions, i.e. to load the > latest seaside when keeping up with the bleeding edge. This sounds very suspicious. That can't reliably work with standard Monticello, all projects I know use multiple branches at some point. I agree that Universes is not the ultimate solution, but at least it seems to work reasonably well. I like the declarative way to specifying package dependencies. Cheers, Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch

Sept. 26, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [Seaside-dev] preliminary Seaside 2.9 alpha universe

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi Damien I can give you an explanation but keith will not like it. Note that I like the ideas that he is pushing and that I started to write a chapter for the next book on installer. - Keith idea that everybody can build its own distribution is not something that everybody like - For example I would like to have a real look at MC1.6 but the message around it is blurry I tried LFP and it broke on me. - I like installer but when I look at the code I would like to refactor it. - There is no document in a nice format that explain why and how (i'm fixing that for installer and I was waiting because I will refactor it else I do not publish the chapter but I did not want to insult keith since this is not the point since I like installer). - unknown is strnage :) - So if you want to help me I would love to have a - Installer code refactored - Installer chapter - Sake (have a look at the code) - Sake Chapter for the book Stef On Sep 26, 2008, at 8:10 AM, Damien Cassou wrote: > On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 12:19 AM, Keith Hodges <keith_hodges(a)yahoo.co.uk > > wrote: >> Do have a look at Sake/Packages equivalent to universes. > > I agree with Keith. Sake/Packages have all the features of universes > without a GUI but provide an easy way to define your own universe as > you did with Seaside and as you want to do with Pharo (just need to > create a new subclass IIUC). I don't understand why people don't want > to look at this solution (it's not about you Seaside developers, it's > about the whole community. Some told me they would stop using my > dev-images if I use Sake/Packages without giving any good reason). I > hope Keith won't give up. > > Bye > > -- > Damien Cassou > Peter von der AhÃ©: Â«I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good > luckÂ». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu) > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Sept. 26, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [Seaside-dev] preliminary Seaside 2.9 alpha universe

by Stefan Schmiedl

On Fri, 26 Sep 2008 08:10:53 +0200 "Damien Cassou" <damien.cassou(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 12:19 AM, Keith Hodges <keith_hodges(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > Do have a look at Sake/Packages equivalent to universes. > > Some told me they would stop using my > dev-images if I use Sake/Packages without giving any good reason). I wonder how much they are paying you for the right to make such statements... If they don't cross your palm with enough silver, he who does work decides on the tools. Just making smalltalk, s.

Sept. 26, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [Seaside-dev] preliminary Seaside 2.9 alpha universe

by Damien Cassou

On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 12:19 AM, Keith Hodges <keith_hodges(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > Do have a look at Sake/Packages equivalent to universes. I agree with Keith. Sake/Packages have all the features of universes without a GUI but provide an easy way to define your own universe as you did with Seaside and as you want to do with Pharo (just need to create a new subclass IIUC). I don't understand why people don't want to look at this solution (it's not about you Seaside developers, it's about the whole community. Some told me they would stop using my dev-images if I use Sake/Packages without giving any good reason). I hope Keith won't give up. Bye -- Damien Cassou Peter von der AhÃ©: Â«I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good luckÂ». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu)

Sept. 26, 2008