I am an old-school guy, I just double-click on images to open them. So I guess that as long as that keeps on working I don't really mind what the default behavior for other cases is. But I do agree that there should be more explanation on how to use the launcher (and some publicity). As is, how it works is not intuitive to me. On Dec 20, 2013, at 7:45 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:

On 20 Dec 2013, at 10:44, Damien Cassou <damien.cassou@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hi guys,

what do you think about setting the PharoLauncher as the default download for mac os x users?

I would start by featuring it more prominently on the download page while explaining clearly what it does. Maybe it also needs its own documentation/promotion web page.

...

If you never tried the launcher, please try it now:

Mac OS X: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/PharoLauncher-Mac-Package/lastSuc... Ubuntu : https://launchpad.net/~pharo/+archive/stable Others: http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~Pharo/PharoLauncher

-- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without losing enthusiasm." Winston Churchill

---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <--- Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 11:45 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:

I would start by featuring it more prominently on the download page while explaining clearly what it does. Maybe it also needs its own documentation/promotion web page.

that's a chicken and egg problem. If nobody uses it, we can't make it very visible on the pharo.org website but if we don't, nobody will use it. -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without losing enthusiasm." Winston Churchill

Yes, but this depends if you want to show image, changes, etc… file to users or not. For me it’s ok as far as I have enough tools to manipulate images Uko On 20 Dec 2013, at 14:40, Johan Fabry <jfabry@dcc.uchile.cl> wrote:

Also, I think it is very wrong to keep the images in the Library folder by default. The Library is "hidden" and a "black magic - do not touch" area for the common user. A sensible default is the Documents folder.

On Dec 20, 2013, at 6:44 AM, Damien Cassou <damien.cassou@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hi guys,

what do you think about setting the PharoLauncher as the default download for mac os x users?

If you never tried the launcher, please try it now:

Mac OS X: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/PharoLauncher-Mac-Package/lastSuc... Ubuntu : https://launchpad.net/~pharo/+archive/stable Others: http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~Pharo/PharoLauncher

-- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without losing enthusiasm." Winston Churchill

---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

2013/12/20 Johan Fabry <jfabry@dcc.uchile.cl>:

Sure. As I said before, I am old-school and double click on my images. So for me they are just documents, like any other, and I use the finder extensively for all my document manipulation stuff. I don't want to open a special tool to do the stuff I can do already in the finder. Also having megas and megas of images (which are just documents) in a "hidden, black magic" folder just makes my hairs stand on end, so I needed to communicate all those feelings.

+1 Everything that does "magic" behind the curtains must be 100% safe and predictable. I like to somehow "hide" the complexity of file management to the end users, but we're developers, so I like to see my files "there" in the directory I chose to put them. I like the "import" feature of IDEs like Eclipse (without copying everything to the workspace), where I can have everything at reach, without resorting to put everything in the same place. Regards, Esteban

On 20 Dec 2013, at 15:04, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:

Just of curiosity, do you use iTunes, or organise music in directories by yourself? :)

+1 :)

Uko

On 20 Dec 2013, at 14:54, Johan Fabry <jfabry@dcc.uchile.cl> wrote:

...

Sure. As I said before, I am old-school and double click on my images. So for me they are just documents, like any other, and I use the finder extensively for all my document manipulation stuff. I don't want to open a special tool to do the stuff I can do already in the finder. Also having megas and megas of images (which are just documents) in a "hidden, black magic" folder just makes my hairs stand on end, so I needed to communicate all those feelings.

On Dec 20, 2013, at 10:46 AM, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:

...

Yes, but this depends if you want to show image, changes, etc… file to users or not. For me it’s ok as far as I have enough tools to manipulate images

Uko

On 20 Dec 2013, at 14:40, Johan Fabry <jfabry@dcc.uchile.cl> wrote:

...

Also, I think it is very wrong to keep the images in the Library folder by default. The Library is "hidden" and a "black magic - do not touch" area for the common user. A sensible default is the Documents folder.

On Dec 20, 2013, at 6:44 AM, Damien Cassou <damien.cassou@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hi guys,

what do you think about setting the PharoLauncher as the default download for mac os x users?

If you never tried the launcher, please try it now:

Mac OS X: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/PharoLauncher-Mac-Package/lastSuc... Ubuntu : https://launchpad.net/~pharo/+archive/stable Others: http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~Pharo/PharoLauncher

-- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without losing enthusiasm." Winston Churchill

---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

Ah, and I *hate* that when I remove music in iTunes that I have to confirm that I want the files to be moved to the trash and not leave them on disc. Trash it already! That's what it means to delete music! I don't want to have a bunch of orphaned files taking up space. On Dec 20, 2013, at 11:11 AM, Johan Fabry <jfabry@dcc.uchile.cl> wrote:

After long consideration of the subject, I allow iTunes to organize music because: - it structures things how *I* want them to be structured : Music -> Artists -> Albums -> track name with number. - they are in the right place: the Music directory. Not in Library

If iTunes would behave differently in any of the above 2, I would not allow it to organize music.

On Dec 20, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:

...

Just of curiosity, do you use iTunes, or organise music in directories by yourself? :)

Uko

On 20 Dec 2013, at 14:54, Johan Fabry <jfabry@dcc.uchile.cl> wrote:

...

Sure. As I said before, I am old-school and double click on my images. So for me they are just documents, like any other, and I use the finder extensively for all my document manipulation stuff. I don't want to open a special tool to do the stuff I can do already in the finder. Also having megas and megas of images (which are just documents) in a "hidden, black magic" folder just makes my hairs stand on end, so I needed to communicate all those feelings.

---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <--- Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 3:28 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:

A problem I have with pharoLaunher is that I want to help out to improve it but I cant for the life of me figure out the code. I think the most important thing is to document it so it will allow people like me to improve it easier. I dont expect anyone to tell me exactly how each method works but at least how the overall code works should be a good start. Because I dont want to fight with the code to understand it. I spend many hours with it, still cant figure it out .

I don't know how to help. Please tell me where are the problems. What I did: - comment nearly all classes - rename each method at least 3 times - categorize all methods - write unit-tests - answer all questions I got about the code -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without losing enthusiasm." Winston Churchill

On 20 Dec 2013, at 14:40, Johan Fabry <jfabry@dcc.uchile.cl> wrote:

Also, I think it is very wrong to keep the images in the Library folder by default. The Library is "hidden" and a "black magic - do not touch" area for the common user. A sensible default is the Documents folder.

in this one, I’m with you… using Library folder is just plain wrong. Esteban

On Dec 20, 2013, at 6:44 AM, Damien Cassou <damien.cassou@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hi guys,

what do you think about setting the PharoLauncher as the default download for mac os x users?

If you never tried the launcher, please try it now:

Mac OS X: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/PharoLauncher-Mac-Package/lastSuc... Ubuntu : https://launchpad.net/~pharo/+archive/stable Others: http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~Pharo/PharoLauncher

-- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without losing enthusiasm." Winston Churchill

---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

On 22/12/2013 14:04, Johan Fabry wrote:

...

...

Also, I think it is very wrong to keep the images in the Library folder by default. The Library is "hidden" and a "black magic - do not touch" area for the common user. A sensible default is the Documents folder.

If a user thinks the Library is black magic then they won't be manipulating images outside of Pharo and PharoLauncher. (as I don't think they will be capable of doing so)

Hi Ben,

It's cultural I would say. The purpose of the Library folder is to hold preferences, caches, et cetera. Never user documents. There is a bunch of stuff in there that actually I don't even have an idea of. Moreover, as standard the Library is a hidden folder now.

I think this is a misreading of Apple's directory design. It is for more than preferences and caches but for all app-specific files Apple's doc <https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/FileManagement/Concept...> says "Apps should use the Library directory to store app-specific (or system-specific) resources." My view is images are app-specific If Pharo Launcher does enough to do all the image manipulation you need - I think it does except for dealing with Save As.. from Pharo itself, then you do not need to have it manipulated by other tools. Also if you want to do something using an image not by Pharo then you almost certainly know enough to be able to use the Library. The ~/Library is hidden to stop users messing around with files as they have found it saves a lot of support to hide these. I would also not in Mavericks i.e. the latest version of OSX making the Library visible is a toggle on the GUI for the Library directory. For example Amazon's Kindle app puts the ebooks in ~/Library/Application Support/Kindle and these seem to me similar to Pharo images I think things should be in ~/Documents if they can be edited/seen in multiple applications. e.g

On Dec 22, 2013, at 7:50 AM, btc@openinworld.com wrote:

...

Johan, I don't use a Mac so... Is the "Show in folder" menu item not sufficient to make it less black-magic - or is there a greater cultural aversion to putting images under Library?

Damien, Maybe for cross-platform consistency that is a Pharo feature (mostly), this should wait until there are similar installers for Windows & Linux - and my apologies I hadn't had time to work on the Windows installer - work picked up but hopefully the Christmas break will give me some time.

-- Mark

On 23 Dec 2013, at 01:17, Johan Fabry <jfabry@dcc.uchile.cl> wrote:

On Dec 22, 2013, at 2:51 PM, Mark Bestley <st@bestley.co.uk> wrote:

...

On 22/12/2013 14:04, Johan Fabry wrote:

...

...

...

Also, I think it is very wrong to keep the images in the Library folder by default. The Library is "hidden" and a "black magic - do not touch" area for the common user. A sensible default is the Documents folder.

If a user thinks the Library is black magic then they won't be manipulating images outside of Pharo and PharoLauncher. (as I don't think they will be capable of doing so)

This is wrong. A mac user not ever touch his songs directly, it uses iTunes, yet his music files are at "Music/iTunes Music”, not hidden. Same applies for pharo images. Even if you are not going to touch them, you still want them in a visible place (for copying, backing, sharing, etc.). Or just because. The default folder has to be Documents/Pharo, not some hard to access place. A pharo image is NOT an obscure configuration library. Is much more like a document or a song than a preference.

I am a counter-example. *I* think the Library is black magic and I manipulate images in the finder.

...

I think this is a misreading of Apple's directory design. It is for more than preferences and caches but for all app-specific files

I am not knowledgeable on the design intent of Apple. I am just a user, and looking at what is inside the Library folder is scary. I have no documents of mine in there.

I will stop here, I think I made my point. Feel free to disagree :-)

---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile