Pharo Consortium News: let's make it real.
Hello everybody We got a final discussion with INRIA representatives and we will now set up a consortium for pharo. INRIA will support the consortium by funding on advanced engineer for a year (may be two if the consortium work well). So this is quite good around 55Keuros on consortium. There some strings attached: We will not be able to pay remote development since this is regulated under the public market french laws but we will be able to hire people (on french rate if they work in France). We will have to see the legal period to spent the money. The general idea is to see how the consortium evolves: ideally we would like to see if we can get it outside inria within a five years period. Now what we plan to do: - We would like to make the list of companies that sign the agreement letter public. Because this is important that other companies joins the consortium. - We will offer a free participation to any individual. - We are wondering if we could have a academic fee for the institution that want it: we have to discuss the fee. Any suggestions would be good: I was thinking that 500 Euros would be good for rich countries and 200 for the other ones. Now tell us. - We could also have way to pay a license or a way to give money to the consortium. Now the complex part: - we would like to collect money from companies and again we will need your help to understand what is the correct model. We are thinking: single person company: starting at 300 Euros "small company": starting at 2500 Euros large companies: starting at 5000 Euros. We would like to keep the model really simple and transparent. Now our goal is to be able to pay an engineer like igor full time because there is so much to do. But each day we get closer to what we want. Stef and Marcus.
Hi Guys, 2011/10/10 Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>:
Hello everybody
We got a final discussion with INRIA representatives and we will now set up a consortium for pharo. INRIA will support the consortium by funding on advanced engineer for a year (may be two if the consortium work well). So this is quite good around 55Keuros on consortium.
That is a really good news! Thanks Guys to keep pushing in this direction. Luc
There some strings attached: We will not be able to pay remote development since this is regulated under the public market french laws but we will be able to hire people (on french rate if they work in France). Â We will have to see the legal period to spent the money.
The general idea is to see how the consortium evolves: ideally we would like to see if we can get it outside inria within a five years period.
Now what we plan to do: Â Â Â Â - We would like to make the list of companies that sign the agreement letter public. Â Â Â Â Because this is important that other companies joins the consortium.
    - We will offer a free participation to any individual.
    - We are wondering if we could have a academic fee for the institution that want it:     we have to discuss the fee. Any suggestions would be good: I was thinking that 500 Euros would be good for rich countries     and 200 for the other ones. Now tell us.
    - We could also have way to pay a license or a way to give money to the consortium.
Now the complex part:     - we would like to collect money from companies and again we will need your help     to understand what is the correct model.         We are thinking:             single person company: starting at 300 Euros             "small company": starting at 2500 Euros             large companies: starting at 5000 Euros.
    We would like to keep the model really simple and transparent.
Now our goal is to be able to pay an engineer like igor full time because there is so much to do. But each day we get closer to what we want.
Stef and Marcus.
Excellent news! On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 9:09 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr
wrote:
Hello everybody
We got a final discussion with INRIA representatives and we will now set up a consortium for pharo. INRIA will support the consortium by funding on advanced engineer for a year (may be two if the consortium work well). So this is quite good around 55Keuros on consortium.
There some strings attached: We will not be able to pay remote development since this is regulated under the public market french laws but we will be able to hire people (on french rate if they work in France). We will have to see the legal period to spent the money.
The general idea is to see how the consortium evolves: ideally we would like to see if we can get it outside inria within a five years period.
Now what we plan to do: - We would like to make the list of companies that sign the agreement letter public. Because this is important that other companies joins the consortium.
- We will offer a free participation to any individual.
- We are wondering if we could have a academic fee for the institution that want it: we have to discuss the fee. Any suggestions would be good: I was thinking that 500 Euros would be good for rich countries and 200 for the other ones. Now tell us.
- We could also have way to pay a license or a way to give money to the consortium.
Now the complex part: - we would like to collect money from companies and again we will need your help to understand what is the correct model. We are thinking: single person company: starting at 300 Euros "small company": starting at 2500 Euros large companies: starting at 5000 Euros.
We would like to keep the model really simple and transparent.
Now our goal is to be able to pay an engineer like igor full time because there is so much to do. But each day we get closer to what we want.
Stef and Marcus.
-- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 9:09 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
There some strings attached: We will not be able to pay remote development since this is regulated under the public market french laws but we will be able to hire people (on french rate if they work in France). Â We will have to see the legal period to spent the money.
this restriction applies to 50k Euro given by INRIA, or to total money collected from all members of consortium? Davorin Rusevljan http://www.cloud208.com/
On Oct 11, 2011, at 8:20 AM, Davorin Rusevljan wrote:
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 9:09 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
There some strings attached: We will not be able to pay remote development since this is regulated under the public market french laws but we will be able to hire people (on french rate if they work in France). We will have to see the legal period to spent the money.
this restriction applies to 50k Euro given by INRIA, or to total money collected from all members of consortium?
All money because it will be managed by INRIA as any other INRIA projects (like our team) and we are all following these rules: this is not that we cannot but it means that - we have to spend 2/4-8 weeks to write done what we want - it will be published in the journal official - companies will be able to bid - then there is a selection phase - then you get the work started to the get done The problem is that this is lengthly and you have control the result Now depending on the situation and the money collected we will be able to hire people but they will have to be located in france. This is why if the consortium is successful (which we hope) the idea is to get out of INRIA but this means that there is nothing like a free lunch - specific accountant - balblbaabablabl - and more Do not hesitate to ask question. Stef
Davorin Rusevljan http://www.cloud208.com/
Maybe I didn't understand right, but what you mean is that Pharo is going to end being free of charge for people who use it commercially? If so, the fees you propose for single-person companies and small companies look a little bit high to me... I would at least make them depend on the benefits or some other kind of deal. Last year I was trying to set up a small company (a dev + a designer) with a friend of mine, and a fee of 2500⬠would have definitely been a big barrier for us... Also, you need to make very clear how frequently is the company supposed to pay the fee is it one single payment for life, monthly, yearly? Cheers, 2011/10/11 Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>
On Oct 11, 2011, at 8:20 AM, Davorin Rusevljan wrote:
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 9:09 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
There some strings attached: We will not be able to pay remote development since this is regulated under the public market french laws but we will be able to hire people (on french rate if they work in France). We will have to see the legal period to spent the money.
this restriction applies to 50k Euro given by INRIA, or to total money collected from all members of consortium?
All money because it will be managed by INRIA as any other INRIA projects (like our team) and we are all following these rules: this is not that we cannot but it means that - we have to spend 2/4-8 weeks to write done what we want - it will be published in the journal official - companies will be able to bid - then there is a selection phase - then you get the work started to the get done The problem is that this is lengthly and you have control the result
Now depending on the situation and the money collected we will be able to hire people but they will have to be located in france.
This is why if the consortium is successful (which we hope) the idea is to get out of INRIA but this means that there is nothing like a free lunch - specific accountant - balblbaabablabl - and more
Do not hesitate to ask question.
Stef
Davorin Rusevljan http://www.cloud208.com/
-- Bernat Romagosa.
On Oct 11, 2011, at 1:08 PM, Bernat Romagosa wrote:
Maybe I didn't understand right, but what you mean is that Pharo is going to end being free of charge for people who use it commercially?
not at all. I never say that or even think about it. We are talking about consortium participation. The all point is how can we make sure that as a community we structure ourselves and put money or time on the table.
If so, the fees you propose for single-person companies and small companies look a little bit high to me... I would at least make them depend on the benefits or some other kind of deal. Last year I was trying to set up a small company (a dev + a designer) with a friend of mine, and a fee of 2500⬠would have definitely been a big barrier for us...
We should find successful small companies :) After we should have a free moral license so that companies can contribute.
Also, you need to make very clear how frequently is the company supposed to pay the fee is it one single payment for life, monthly, yearly? good points. yearly.
Stef
Cheers,
2011/10/11 Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>
On Oct 11, 2011, at 8:20 AM, Davorin Rusevljan wrote:
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 9:09 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
There some strings attached: We will not be able to pay remote development since this is regulated under the public market french laws but we will be able to hire people (on french rate if they work in France). We will have to see the legal period to spent the money.
this restriction applies to 50k Euro given by INRIA, or to total money collected from all members of consortium?
All money because it will be managed by INRIA as any other INRIA projects (like our team) and we are all following these rules: this is not that we cannot but it means that - we have to spend 2/4-8 weeks to write done what we want - it will be published in the journal official - companies will be able to bid - then there is a selection phase - then you get the work started to the get done The problem is that this is lengthly and you have control the result
Now depending on the situation and the money collected we will be able to hire people but they will have to be located in france.
This is why if the consortium is successful (which we hope) the idea is to get out of INRIA but this means that there is nothing like a free lunch - specific accountant - balblbaabablabl - and more
Do not hesitate to ask question.
Stef
Davorin Rusevljan http://www.cloud208.com/
-- Bernat Romagosa.
OK, thanks for the answer, it seems I had missunderstood :) 2011/10/11 Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>
On Oct 11, 2011, at 1:08 PM, Bernat Romagosa wrote:
Maybe I didn't understand right, but what you mean is that Pharo is going to end being free of charge for people who use it commercially?
not at all. I never say that or even think about it.
We are talking about consortium participation. The all point is how can we make sure that as a community we structure ourselves and put money or time on the table.
If so, the fees you propose for single-person companies and small companies look a little bit high to me... I would at least make them depend on the benefits or some other kind of deal. Last year I was trying to set up a small company (a dev + a designer) with a friend of mine, and a fee of 2500⬠would have definitely been a big barrier for us...
We should find successful small companies :) After we should have a free moral license so that companies can contribute.
Also, you need to make very clear how frequently is the company supposed to pay the fee is it one single payment for life, monthly, yearly? good points. yearly.
Stef
Cheers,
2011/10/11 Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>
On Oct 11, 2011, at 8:20 AM, Davorin Rusevljan wrote:
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 9:09 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
There some strings attached: We will not be able to pay remote
development since this is regulated under the public market french laws
but we will be able to hire people (on french rate if they work in France). We will have to see the legal period to spent the money.
this restriction applies to 50k Euro given by INRIA, or to total money collected from all members of consortium?
All money because it will be managed by INRIA as any other INRIA projects (like our team) and we are all following these rules: this is not that we cannot but it means that - we have to spend 2/4-8 weeks to write done what we want - it will be published in the journal official - companies will be able to bid - then there is a selection phase - then you get the work started to the get done The problem is that this is lengthly and you have control the result
Now depending on the situation and the money collected we will be able to hire people but they will have to be located in france.
This is why if the consortium is successful (which we hope) the idea is to get out of INRIA but this means that there is nothing like a free lunch - specific accountant - balblbaabablabl - and more
Do not hesitate to ask question.
Stef
Davorin Rusevljan http://www.cloud208.com/
-- Bernat Romagosa.
-- Bernat Romagosa.
you are welcome :) Stef
OK, thanks for the answer, it seems I had missunderstood :)
2011/10/11 Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>
On Oct 11, 2011, at 1:08 PM, Bernat Romagosa wrote:
Maybe I didn't understand right, but what you mean is that Pharo is going to end being free of charge for people who use it commercially?
not at all. I never say that or even think about it.
We are talking about consortium participation. The all point is how can we make sure that as a community we structure ourselves and put money or time on the table.
If so, the fees you propose for single-person companies and small companies look a little bit high to me... I would at least make them depend on the benefits or some other kind of deal. Last year I was trying to set up a small company (a dev + a designer) with a friend of mine, and a fee of 2500⬠would have definitely been a big barrier for us...
We should find successful small companies :) After we should have a free moral license so that companies can contribute.
Also, you need to make very clear how frequently is the company supposed to pay the fee is it one single payment for life, monthly, yearly? good points. yearly.
Stef
Cheers,
2011/10/11 Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>
On Oct 11, 2011, at 8:20 AM, Davorin Rusevljan wrote:
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 9:09 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
There some strings attached: We will not be able to pay remote development since this is regulated under the public market french laws but we will be able to hire people (on french rate if they work in France). We will have to see the legal period to spent the money.
this restriction applies to 50k Euro given by INRIA, or to total money collected from all members of consortium?
All money because it will be managed by INRIA as any other INRIA projects (like our team) and we are all following these rules: this is not that we cannot but it means that - we have to spend 2/4-8 weeks to write done what we want - it will be published in the journal official - companies will be able to bid - then there is a selection phase - then you get the work started to the get done The problem is that this is lengthly and you have control the result
Now depending on the situation and the money collected we will be able to hire people but they will have to be located in france.
This is why if the consortium is successful (which we hope) the idea is to get out of INRIA but this means that there is nothing like a free lunch - specific accountant - balblbaabablabl - and more
Do not hesitate to ask question.
Stef
Davorin Rusevljan http://www.cloud208.com/
-- Bernat Romagosa.
-- Bernat Romagosa.
Hi: I had the same doubts than Bernat. Just to clarify, if a company (even a small one of a single person) decides to use Pharo commercialy, will have the following two options: 1. Be part of the consortium and pay the fee; and 2. Not be part of the consortium and use Pharo for free ? I the previous is true, then what are the benefits for the companies paying the fee (apart of the moral of help build pharo) ? Sorry if I missunderstood something. Cheers. 2011/10/11 Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>
On Oct 11, 2011, at 1:08 PM, Bernat Romagosa wrote:
Maybe I didn't understand right, but what you mean is that Pharo is going to end being free of charge for people who use it commercially?
not at all. I never say that or even think about it.
We are talking about consortium participation. The all point is how can we make sure that as a community we structure ourselves and put money or time on the table.
If so, the fees you propose for single-person companies and small companies look a little bit high to me... I would at least make them depend on the benefits or some other kind of deal. Last year I was trying to set up a small company (a dev + a designer) with a friend of mine, and a fee of 2500⬠would have definitely been a big barrier for us...
We should find successful small companies :) After we should have a free moral license so that companies can contribute.
Also, you need to make very clear how frequently is the company supposed to pay the fee is it one single payment for life, monthly, yearly? good points. yearly.
Stef
Cheers,
2011/10/11 Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>
On Oct 11, 2011, at 8:20 AM, Davorin Rusevljan wrote:
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 9:09 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
There some strings attached: We will not be able to pay remote
development since this is regulated under the public market french laws
but we will be able to hire people (on french rate if they work in France). We will have to see the legal period to spent the money.
this restriction applies to 50k Euro given by INRIA, or to total money collected from all members of consortium?
All money because it will be managed by INRIA as any other INRIA projects (like our team) and we are all following these rules: this is not that we cannot but it means that - we have to spend 2/4-8 weeks to write done what we want - it will be published in the journal official - companies will be able to bid - then there is a selection phase - then you get the work started to the get done The problem is that this is lengthly and you have control the result
Now depending on the situation and the money collected we will be able to hire people but they will have to be located in france.
This is why if the consortium is successful (which we hope) the idea is to get out of INRIA but this means that there is nothing like a free lunch - specific accountant - balblbaabablabl - and more
Do not hesitate to ask question.
Stef
Davorin Rusevljan http://www.cloud208.com/
-- Bernat Romagosa.
On Oct 12, 2011, at 1:04 PM, Germán Arduino wrote:
Hi:
I had the same doubts than Bernat.
Just to clarify, if a company (even a small one of a single person) decides to use Pharo commercialy, will have the following two options:
1. Be part of the consortium and pay the fee; and 2. Not be part of the consortium and use Pharo for free ?
yes we already said it 10 times at least. Pharo will stay free with the same MIT license.
I the previous is true, then what are the benefits for the companies paying the fee (apart of the moral of help build pharo) ?
Make sure that Pharo make progress not just based on our free time. Build a real system and eco system. Market yourself as part of a powerful community.
Sorry if I missunderstood something.
Cheers.
2011/10/11 Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>
On Oct 11, 2011, at 1:08 PM, Bernat Romagosa wrote:
Maybe I didn't understand right, but what you mean is that Pharo is going to end being free of charge for people who use it commercially?
not at all. I never say that or even think about it.
We are talking about consortium participation. The all point is how can we make sure that as a community we structure ourselves and put money or time on the table.
If so, the fees you propose for single-person companies and small companies look a little bit high to me... I would at least make them depend on the benefits or some other kind of deal. Last year I was trying to set up a small company (a dev + a designer) with a friend of mine, and a fee of 2500⬠would have definitely been a big barrier for us...
We should find successful small companies :) After we should have a free moral license so that companies can contribute.
Also, you need to make very clear how frequently is the company supposed to pay the fee is it one single payment for life, monthly, yearly? good points. yearly.
Stef
Cheers,
2011/10/11 Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>
On Oct 11, 2011, at 8:20 AM, Davorin Rusevljan wrote:
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 9:09 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
There some strings attached: We will not be able to pay remote development since this is regulated under the public market french laws but we will be able to hire people (on french rate if they work in France). We will have to see the legal period to spent the money.
this restriction applies to 50k Euro given by INRIA, or to total money collected from all members of consortium?
All money because it will be managed by INRIA as any other INRIA projects (like our team) and we are all following these rules: this is not that we cannot but it means that - we have to spend 2/4-8 weeks to write done what we want - it will be published in the journal official - companies will be able to bid - then there is a selection phase - then you get the work started to the get done The problem is that this is lengthly and you have control the result
Now depending on the situation and the money collected we will be able to hire people but they will have to be located in france.
This is why if the consortium is successful (which we hope) the idea is to get out of INRIA but this means that there is nothing like a free lunch - specific accountant - balblbaabablabl - and more
Do not hesitate to ask question.
Stef
Davorin Rusevljan http://www.cloud208.com/
-- Bernat Romagosa.
On 12 Oct 2011, at 13:04, Germán Arduino wrote:
then what are the benefits for the companies paying the fee (apart of the moral of help build pharo) ?
I think that the idea of the consortium is to create an entity that provides resources for further development of Pharo. It is all good and well to use open source and free stuff (and of course, Pharo will remain open source and free to use), but as a commercial user you have a couple of needs: you want Pharo to remain alive and well, active and growing and you will want support. All that takes resources (money/time). For many well known open source projects there are foundations and/or large companies paying for engineers. Pharo needs some of that as well. I think it is a good idea. Sven
And you can also market that you are part of a strong consortium. Stef
then what are the benefits for the companies paying the fee (apart of the moral of help build pharo) ?
I think that the idea of the consortium is to create an entity that provides resources for further development of Pharo.
It is all good and well to use open source and free stuff (and of course, Pharo will remain open source and free to use), but as a commercial user you have a couple of needs: you want Pharo to remain alive and well, active and growing and you will want support. All that takes resources (money/time). For many well known open source projects there are foundations and/or large companies paying for engineers. Pharo needs some of that as well.
I think it is a good idea.
Sven
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 3:03 AM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
Now depending on the situation and the money collected we will be able to hire people but they will have to be located in france.
Just what I needed: another reason to wish I lived in France :)
This is terrific good news. Top priority for a "real" Smalltalk system: auto-config that works very reliably across major and minor releases ("very" means fatal errors in any 12 month period over 5 years are less than [ here set a target and publish it and publicly track that performance.] Builds of Cincom VisualWorks with Seaside 2.x were in the usual tradition of loading Smalltalk (Smalltalkers tend to decry that the St environmen is not well-known or appreciated, but just as well that this non-issue was the in-house secret-of-polichinelle ... The challenge of building Smalltalk may have compared well to Java or C++, but what comfort should have been taken in that? That tradional nightmare has been confounding versioning with building. My hope had been that Roel Wuyts and SOUL would lead to a solution through a build agent able to backtrack and achieve a build where one was possible given certain minimal constraits and effectively report the build obstacles without ever dropping into a debugger. Congratulations and this wish: may it almost always build and build well and most often build as intended (and leave - most often - only the in-house developer-engineers living on that bleeding edge.) May Pharo soon be the best "mature" Smalltalk environment (regardless of which dialect leads along the bleeding-edge.) Félicitations & viel Glück !
Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
we will now set up a consortium for pharo.
Very cool. I'm in! Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Consortium-News-let-s-make-it-real-tp3891452p390... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
participants (10)
-
Bernat Romagosa -
Davorin Rusevljan -
Germán Arduino -
Larry White -
Luc Fabresse -
Mariano Martinez Peck -
Robert Shiplett -
Sean P. DeNigris -
Stéphane Ducasse -
Sven Van Caekenberghe