Hi guys I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that the quality of our community is in general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using well the association. I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo that the world knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult. So what do you think? I would use the association in a much clearer way. Stef
On 2013-06-01 10:40, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
Hi guys
I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that the quality of our community is in general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using well the association. I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo that the world knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult.
So what do you think? I would use the association in a much clearer way.
I'd like to mention a few facts: 1. I used to think Smalltalk is dead. 2. I used to think Smalltalk, even if not dead, is only being used in universities. 3. I used to think Smalltalk world is far behind the modern web aspects/framework/technologies. It's been less than a week that I started to give Smalltalk (Pharo) a try -and to be honest I chose to do so just to see what is Seaside. And to my utmost surprise all of the above assumptions turned out to be moronic per-assumptions (though hugely popular). I come from the Java world which I'd say is the richest and most evolving ecosystem for web development. But I was shocked by design, quality, simplicity, cleanness and feature-set of Seaside. And if you ask me nothing matches it even in the wide range of Java web frameworks. I believe, Seaside is a sample of what Smalltalk world has to offer (correct me if I'm wrong) and it's a real pitty that frustrated developers/companies using Java or .NET don't know about such a thing. PS: I have some general suggestions but, honestly, I thought I'd hold them as I'm not a pro Smalltalk'er :-) -- Bahman Movaqar (http://BahmanM.com) ERP Evaluation, Implementation, Deployment Consultant
On 2013-06-02 07:26, btc@openinworld.com wrote:
Bahman Movaqar wrote:
On 2013-06-01 10:40, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
Hi guys
I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that the quality of our community is in general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using well the association. I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo that the world knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult.
So what do you think? I would use the association in a much clearer way.
I'd like to mention a few facts: 1. I used to think Smalltalk is dead. 2. I used to think Smalltalk, even if not dead, is only being used in universities. 3. I used to think Smalltalk world is far behind the modern web aspects/framework/technologies.
It's been less than a week that I started to give Smalltalk (Pharo) a try -and to be honest I chose to do so just to see what is Seaside. And to my utmost surprise all of the above assumptions turned out to be moronic per-assumptions (though hugely popular).
I come from the Java world which I'd say is the richest and most evolving ecosystem for web development. But I was shocked by design, quality, simplicity, cleanness and feature-set of Seaside. And if you ask me nothing matches it even in the wide range of Java web frameworks.
I believe, Seaside is a sample of what Smalltalk world has to offer (correct me if I'm wrong) and it's a real pitty that frustrated developers/companies using Java or .NET don't know about such a thing.
PS: I have some general suggestions but, honestly, I thought I'd hold them as I'm not a pro Smalltalk'er :-)
Thanks for your comments Bahman. The opinions and suggestions of newcomers are hugely important, since that is the market we need to sell into. While your ideas might not align completely with the direction Pharo wants to take, by the time your are a Pro-Smalltalk'er you might forget your perspective today. So it is good to share, and this is the forum for it.
Thanks Ben. DISCLAIMER: ALL OF THE FOLLOWINGS ARE JUST MY PERSONAL OPINIONS. ** Smalltalkhub is a very good idea and it should be further developed and promoted. It's a place (with a slick *modern* looks) where people like me can see that there are lots of people using Smalltalk for serious business. ** A very good way to promote a mature and well thought-out language like Smalltalk/Pharo is to something serious with it and let people know about it. Honestly, I'd write a business application, open source it and try to promote it on the net. Many companies are coding in Java because the main software they implement is written in Java. As an example, I have to do business in Java because the ERP for which I offer services is written in Java. And I know quite a lot of people/companies sticking to Java/.NET for the same reason. ** The name "Smalltalk" was a marketing mistake IMHO, just like Squeak (sorry Squeak folks!) I remember I downloaded Squeak 4-5 years back being just curious about Smalltalk. I ran it and the first thing I saw was a mouse as the background of the environment. It may sound stupid but, honestly, that seriously hurt my curiosity. Pharo is much better in terms of looks (I don't know about the internals). These things, though very unimportant or even fun for the existing Smalltalk community, have great effect on newcomers.
What was it that first caught your attention about Seaside?
1. Simplicity ============== I almost knew no Smalltalk, let alone Seaside. Following only the first 6 chapters of Seaside Tutorial[1] and taking a very quick glance at the next 3 chapters I was already coding! This is *not* something one may get in Java world: assuming that one already knows Java *well*, she has to read twice as much as tutorials and still without the help of an IDE to automate all the boilerplate she's completely helpless. 2. Design ========== AFAIK component-oriented design is the hottest trend in the web framework design and Seaside has got very well. In Java world, despite numerous -I mean it- web frameworks, there are only 2-3 ones that have been designed this way, namely GWT, ZK and Wicket. 3. Quality =========== The quality of the design is outstanding. The idea of components calling each other, i.e. `call:', and the notion of tasks makes web development a lot easier. Not that it's not possible to do so in other web frameworks but it's not as easy and straight-forward. And data binding as easy as using `on:of:' is just a breeze from heavens! 4. Cleanness ============= To me Seaside looks like a no nonsense web framework. No XML/boilerplate configuration and just enough of client/server side control over the code makes it one of the *few* good ones. Again, I being able to code after a few chapters of *tutorial* clearly speaks about cleanness. 5. Feature set =============== Component-based architecture, encapsulation of the Script from Hell (Javascript), no setup, halos, that /creepy/ code modification from within the browser, ... Heck, I'm already drooling :-) 6. Light-weight ================ In Java world, unless you're one of those few tough know-it-all gurus, you *cannot* easily develop a web application on a machine with less than 2GB of RAM. Heck my Pharo image running Seaside in development mode and all the windows open inside Pharo has cost me just ~80MB RAM! Unbelievable! [1] http://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/seaside -- Bahman Movaqar (http://BahmanM.com) ERP Evaluation, Implementation, Deployment Consultant
Thanks for your feedback. I agree with most of them (to me seasie is lacking a nice library of premade components), now you have also reef (lacks a good oducmentation that encapsulates javascript) and amber for the client side. With Pharo our goal is to make sure that people can make business. We are trying hard and I'm kind of obsessed by that :). So I love to hear that people created new projects, businesses with Pharo. I got some no public information from time to time that indicate that this is happening more and more :). Now we want more success stories. ;D So let us know how we can help you to arrive to the point where you want to get into pharo business. Stef
Thanks Ben.
DISCLAIMER: ALL OF THE FOLLOWINGS ARE JUST MY PERSONAL OPINIONS.
** Smalltalkhub is a very good idea and it should be further developed and promoted. It's a place (with a slick *modern* looks) where people like me can see that there are lots of people using Smalltalk for serious business.
** A very good way to promote a mature and well thought-out language like Smalltalk/Pharo is to something serious with it and let people know about it. Honestly, I'd write a business application, open source it and try to promote it on the net. Many companies are coding in Java because the main software they implement is written in Java. As an example, I have to do business in Java because the ERP for which I offer services is written in Java. And I know quite a lot of people/companies sticking to Java/.NET for the same reason.
** The name "Smalltalk" was a marketing mistake IMHO, just like Squeak (sorry Squeak folks!) I remember I downloaded Squeak 4-5 years back being just curious about Smalltalk. I ran it and the first thing I saw was a mouse as the background of the environment. It may sound stupid but, honestly, that seriously hurt my curiosity. Pharo is much better in terms of looks (I don't know about the internals). These things, though very unimportant or even fun for the existing Smalltalk community, have great effect on newcomers.
What was it that first caught your attention about Seaside?
1. Simplicity ============== I almost knew no Smalltalk, let alone Seaside. Following only the first 6 chapters of Seaside Tutorial[1] and taking a very quick glance at the next 3 chapters I was already coding! This is *not* something one may get in Java world: assuming that one already knows Java *well*, she has to read twice as much as tutorials and still without the help of an IDE to automate all the boilerplate she's completely helpless.
2. Design ========== AFAIK component-oriented design is the hottest trend in the web framework design and Seaside has got very well. In Java world, despite numerous -I mean it- web frameworks, there are only 2-3 ones that have been designed this way, namely GWT, ZK and Wicket.
3. Quality =========== The quality of the design is outstanding. The idea of components calling each other, i.e. `call:', and the notion of tasks makes web development a lot easier. Not that it's not possible to do so in other web frameworks but it's not as easy and straight-forward. And data binding as easy as using `on:of:' is just a breeze from heavens!
4. Cleanness ============= To me Seaside looks like a no nonsense web framework. No XML/boilerplate configuration and just enough of client/server side control over the code makes it one of the *few* good ones. Again, I being able to code after a few chapters of *tutorial* clearly speaks about cleanness.
5. Feature set =============== Component-based architecture, encapsulation of the Script from Hell (Javascript), no setup, halos, that /creepy/ code modification from within the browser, ... Heck, I'm already drooling :-)
6. Light-weight ================ In Java world, unless you're one of those few tough know-it-all gurus, you *cannot* easily develop a web application on a machine with less than 2GB of RAM. Heck my Pharo image running Seaside in development mode and all the windows open inside Pharo has cost me just ~80MB RAM! Unbelievable!
[1] http://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/seaside
-- Bahman Movaqar (http://BahmanM.com) ERP Evaluation, Implementation, Deployment Consultant
btc@openinworld.com wrote:
Bahman Movaqar wrote:
** A very good way to promote a mature and well thought-out language like Smalltalk/Pharo is to something serious with it and let people know about it. Honestly, I'd write a business application, open source it and try to promote it on the net. Many companies are coding in Java because the main software they implement is written in Java. As an example, I have to do business in Java because the ERP for which I offer services is written in Java. And I know quite a lot of people/companies sticking to Java/.NET for the same reason.
I have had similar thoughts that many people are first drawn to an application, and then end up in its development language by default. My thought was based around a non-critical application like a mind-map tool (similar to Freemind). Something non-critical makes it easier for the techies to slip it in the back door without management getting involved. However an open source ERP like Compiere would be fantastic. The trouble would be attracting a domain expert to implement it ;) Perhaps one way to go would finding an existing database driven open source ERP system that doesn't have a web interface, and gradually bolt on a web interface using Seaside.
I hesitated a bit linking to this video [1] about Compiere moving from a desktop app to a web app, but a few comments made it seem not-too-far-off-topic, and surprisingly might actually make it a good target for a Smalltalk project to get its teeth into. * that say say its a Model Driven Architecture with everything in an "Active Data Dictionary" defining where stuff is rendered, how its rendered - so I wonder if that eases hooking Smalltalk in * the number of times "refactoring" was mentioned - so I wonder if a good student research project would be an IDE for refactoring Java, even to the degree of refactoring Java into Smalltalk * they want to maintain both desktop and web clients - I'm sure there were some recent comments on pharo-dev about abmitions to "deploy-everywhere" eg desktop and web together * they felt going Javascript and AJAX would suffer from losing complete debuggability - I am thinking of the benefits of web client side Amber debugger * they made simple prototype of web interface in 2 weeks - obviously they have the advantage of their own code, but maybe something similar would be reasonably achievable as a demonstrator. * reminded me of the massive amount of work in the world just customizing applications to match customer business processes. eg millions of dollars in the SAP world * Compiere has some good branding in the business world. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3znA_4xptA cheers -ben
On 2013-06-02 19:07, btc@openinworld.com wrote:
btc@openinworld.com wrote:
Bahman Movaqar wrote:
** A very good way to promote a mature and well thought-out language like Smalltalk/Pharo is to something serious with it and let people
know
about it. Honestly, I'd write a business application, open source it and try to promote it on the net. Many companies are coding in Java because the main software they implement is written in Java. As an example, I have to do business in Java because the ERP for which I offer services is written in Java. And I know quite a lot of people/companies sticking to Java/.NET for the same reason. I have had similar thoughts that many people are first drawn to an application, and then end up in its development language by default. My thought was based around a non-critical application like a mind-map tool (similar to Freemind). Something non-critical makes it easier for the techies to slip it in the back door without management getting involved. However an open source ERP like Compiere would be fantastic. The trouble would be attracting a domain expert to implement it ;) Perhaps one way to go would finding an existing database driven open source ERP system that doesn't have a web interface, and gradually bolt on a web interface using Seaside.
I hesitated a bit linking to this video [1] about Compiere moving from a desktop app to a web app, but a few comments made it seem not-too-far-off-topic, and surprisingly might actually make it a good target for a Smalltalk project to get its teeth into.
That's an exciting idea. Though, honestly, I wouldn't dare to target Compiere :-) Compiere is a giant mess of Spaghetti code but with a huge feature-set/functionality non-matched in even most commercial softwares -I know...I'm marketing :-) But in general, I personally, 100% agree with you. Nothing better attracts the likes of me and at the same time proves the potentials of Smalltalk. I've already started a small project named Simin[1] with the exact same goal.
* that say say its a Model Driven Architecture with everything in an "Active Data Dictionary" defining where stuff is rendered, how its rendered - so I wonder if that eases hooking Smalltalk in
IIRC Jorg Janke (the original developer) made the first Compiere prototypes in Smalltalk back in 1999. However he switched to Java because he couldn't sell it as a Smalltalk app :-(
* the number of times "refactoring" was mentioned - so I wonder if a good student research project would be an IDE for refactoring Java, even to the degree of refactoring Java into Smalltalk
Most of the trouble of Compiere/Adempiere[2] refactoring stems from the fact that it's just spaghetti code and there is no clear distinction between UI and model. With a good technical design[2], most of that *nightmare* just vanishes away.
* they want to maintain both desktop and web clients - I'm sure there were some recent comments on pharo-dev about abmitions to "deploy-everywhere" eg desktop and web together
* they felt going Javascript and AJAX would suffer from losing complete debuggability - I am thinking of the benefits of web client side Amber debugger
It is true. However in Adempiere, using ZK framework, they managed to keep the debuggability to some extent. But that is definitely nowhere near "halos" or Amber.
* they made simple prototype of web interface in 2 weeks - obviously they have the advantage of their own code, but maybe something similar would be reasonably achievable as a demonstrator.
* reminded me of the massive amount of work in the world just customizing applications to match customer business processes. eg millions of dollars in the SAP world
That is right. I am an independent ERP consultant who's been in this field for more than 7 years now, implementing Compiere and later Adempiere. One of my dreams, is re-writing Adempiere functionality in a language/framwork/paradigm/whatever that removes the technical flaws and reduces the development/extension time. That's the reason I keep searching for a new language/framework even though I normally don't code these days.
* Compiere has some good branding in the business world.
Had :-)
Ah. Can't view the video. YouTube is filtered out here :-( Regarding writing a business app or re-writing an existing one, I have lots of ideas but I hold them for another time as they seem OT. [1] http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~Bahman/Simin/ [2] There was this fork of Compiere back in 2006 named Adempiere. Today Adempiere has both Swing and web (done using ZK) UIs. Also Compiere was bought and closed source'd by Consona in 2010 IIRC. [3] Compiere/Adempiere really don't need business re-design :-) -- Bahman Movaqar (http://BahmanM.com) ERP Evaluation, Implementation, Deployment Consultant
But in general, I personally, 100% agree with you. Nothing better attracts the likes of me and at the same time proves the potentials of Smalltalk. I've already started a small project named Simin[1] with the exact same goal.
I strongly encourage you to have a look at magritte because with magritte you can describe you objects and get for free seaside components, validator â¦. The idea is that you describe your domain objects and build/use interpreters(programs) that are aware that the domain objects are described with magritte. Voyage uses mongotalk and magrrite to serialize objects in mongo. The pier cms is using magritte. http://www.ibizlog.com, the association and consortium web site are magritte-based. There is an old chapter on magritte 2 on the seaside book http://book.seaside.st.
* that say say its a Model Driven Architecture with everything in an "Active Data Dictionary" defining where stuff is rendered, how its rendered - so I wonder if that eases hooking Smalltalk in
IIRC Jorg Janke (the original developer) made the first Compiere prototypes in Smalltalk back in 1999. However he switched to Java because he couldn't sell it as a Smalltalk app :-(
* the number of times "refactoring" was mentioned - so I wonder if a good student research project would be an IDE for refactoring Java, even to the degree of refactoring Java into Smalltalk
Most of the trouble of Compiere/Adempiere[2] refactoring stems from the fact that it's just spaghetti code and there is no clear distinction between UI and model. With a good technical design[2], most of that *nightmare* just vanishes away.
argh :)
* they made simple prototype of web interface in 2 weeks - obviously they have the advantage of their own code, but maybe something similar would be reasonably achievable as a demonstrator.
* reminded me of the massive amount of work in the world just customizing applications to match customer business processes. eg millions of dollars in the SAP world
That is right. I am an independent ERP consultant who's been in this field for more than 7 years now, implementing Compiere and later Adempiere.
One of my dreams, is re-writing Adempiere functionality in a language/framwork/paradigm/whatever that removes the technical flaws and reduces the development/extension time. That's the reason I keep searching for a new language/framework even though I normally don't code these days.
This would be really good :)
* Compiere has some good branding in the business world.
Had :-)
Ah. Can't view the video. YouTube is filtered out here :-(
Regarding writing a business app or re-writing an existing one, I have lots of ideas but I hold them for another time as they seem OT.
[1] http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~Bahman/Simin/
[2] There was this fork of Compiere back in 2006 named Adempiere. Today Adempiere has both Swing and web (done using ZK) UIs. Also Compiere was bought and closed source'd by Consona in 2010 IIRC.
[3] Compiere/Adempiere really don't need business re-design :-)
-- Bahman Movaqar (http://BahmanM.com) ERP Evaluation, Implementation, Deployment Consultant
I thought about the same. This is a pity that I do not have the knowledge to build one :) On Jun 2, 2013, at 3:50 PM, btc@openInWorld.com wrote:
I have had similar thoughts that many people are first drawn to an application, and then end up in its development language by default. My thought was based around a non-critical application like a mind-map tool (similar to Freemind). Something non-critical makes it easier for the techies to slip it in the back door without management getting involved. However an open source ERP like Compiere would be fantastic. The trouble would be attracting a domain expert to implement it ;) Perhaps one way to go would finding an existing database driven open source ERP system that doesn't have a web interface, and gradually bolt on a web interface using Seaside.
Bahman, We, as Smalltalkers, are very good at talking among ourselves, but what we really need is to get more people to have your experience. I think your comments have more value than most on this forum. At our Toronto Smalltalk User Group meetings we've talked about getting out to other software groups and showing them Smalltalk. I'd like to know, from your point of view, what would be an effective presentation.  What should we focus on? What will get people to explore Smalltalk like you have? Thanks, Bob Nemec ________________________________ From: Bahman Movaqar <Bahman@BahmanM.com> To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users@lists.pharo.org> Sent: Saturday, June 1, 2013 2:34:26 AM Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo consultants On 2013-06-01 10:40, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
Hi guys
I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that the quality of our community is in general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using well the association. I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo that the world knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult.
So what do you think? I would use the association in a much clearer way.
I'd like to mention a few facts: 1. I used to think Smalltalk is dead. 2. I used to think Smalltalk, even if not dead, is only being used in universities. 3. I used to think Smalltalk world is far behind the modern web aspects/framework/technologies. It's been less than a week that I started to give Smalltalk (Pharo) a try -and to be honest I chose to do so just to see what is Seaside. And to my utmost surprise all of the above assumptions turned out to be moronic per-assumptions (though hugely popular). I come from the Java world which I'd say is the richest and most evolving ecosystem for web development. But I was shocked by design, quality, simplicity, cleanness and feature-set of Seaside. And if you ask me nothing matches it even in the wide range of Java web frameworks. I believe, Seaside is a sample of what Smalltalk world has to offer (correct me if I'm wrong) and it's a real pitty that frustrated developers/companies using Java or .NET don't know about such a thing. PS: I have some general suggestions but, honestly, I thought I'd hold them as I'm not a pro Smalltalk'er :-) -- Bahman Movaqar (http://BahmanM.com) ERP Evaluation, Implementation, Deployment Consultant
On 2013-06-02 17:54, bobn@rogers.com wrote:
Bahman, We, as Smalltalkers, are very good at talking among ourselves, but what we really need is to get more people to have your experience. I think your comments have more value than most on this forum.
At our Toronto Smalltalk User Group meetings we've talked about getting out to other software groups and showing them Smalltalk. I'd like to know, from your point of view, what would be an effective presentation. What should we focus on? What will get people to explore Smalltalk like you have?
Hi Bob, I'd say penetrating a market is a double-threaded parallel process: motivating the developers and attracting the business decision makers (which sadly most of the times are not developers). I believe, as you certainly know, there are different types of developers with different areas of expertise like system programmers, website programmers and so on. So, IMHO, depending on which type is your audience you should use different show cases. But I'm sure for audience with a background like me, a web-based application that does reporting, saves data to PostgreSQL or Oracle (phew!) and runs smoothly would be very interesting. Specially if you could demo the audience how cleanly and easily they can extend it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From:* Bahman Movaqar <Bahman@BahmanM.com> *To:* Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users@lists.pharo.org> *Sent:* Saturday, June 1, 2013 2:34:26 AM *Subject:* Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo consultants
On 2013-06-01 10:40, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
Hi guys
I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that the quality of our community is in general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using well the association. I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo that the world knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult.
So what do you think? I would use the association in a much clearer way.
I'd like to mention a few facts: 1. I used to think Smalltalk is dead. 2. I used to think Smalltalk, even if not dead, is only being used in universities. 3. I used to think Smalltalk world is far behind the modern web aspects/framework/technologies.
It's been less than a week that I started to give Smalltalk (Pharo) a try -and to be honest I chose to do so just to see what is Seaside. And to my utmost surprise all of the above assumptions turned out to be moronic per-assumptions (though hugely popular).
I come from the Java world which I'd say is the richest and most evolving ecosystem for web development. But I was shocked by design, quality, simplicity, cleanness and feature-set of Seaside. And if you ask me nothing matches it even in the wide range of Java web frameworks.
I believe, Seaside is a sample of what Smalltalk world has to offer (correct me if I'm wrong) and it's a real pitty that frustrated developers/companies using Java or .NET don't know about such a thing.
PS: I have some general suggestions but, honestly, I thought I'd hold them as I'm not a pro Smalltalk'er :-)
-- Bahman Movaqar (http://BahmanM.com) ERP Evaluation, Implementation, Deployment Consultant
Am 01.06.2013 um 08:10 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>:
Hi guys
I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that the quality of our community is in general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using well the association. I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo that the world knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult.
So what do you think? I would use the association in a much clearer way.
I think you need to elaborate here. On this level of detail the only answer could be: good idea! I cannot see what you have on your mind when you like to use the association in a clearer way. I would like to have consultancy for consultants. I mean I read that sometimes that developers are just too shy to sell services with smalltalk or do not dare to introduce it to their IT. There should be an instance encouraging those people or be just an address to target questions to. Norbert
On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:42 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
Am 01.06.2013 um 08:10 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>:
Hi guys
I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that the quality of our community is in general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using well the association. I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo that the world knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult.
So what do you think? I would use the association in a much clearer way.
I think you need to elaborate here. On this level of detail the only answer could be: good idea! I cannot see what you have on your mind when you like to use the association in a clearer way.
I mean that we could use the association as a show room for talented person "selling" their expertise :)
I would like to have consultancy for consultants. I mean I read that sometimes that developers are just too shy to sell services with smalltalk or do not dare to introduce it to their IT. There should be an instance encouraging those people or be just an address to target questions to.
I would like to show to the world that if they start business around Pharo they can find experts.
Norbert
On 01 Jun 2013, at 17:28, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:42 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
Am 01.06.2013 um 08:10 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>:
Hi guys
I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that the quality of our community is in general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using well the association. I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo that the world knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult.
So what do you think? I would use the association in a much clearer way.
I think you need to elaborate here. On this level of detail the only answer could be: good idea! I cannot see what you have on your mind when you like to use the association in a clearer way.
I mean that we could use the association as a show room for talented person "selling" their expertise :)
Yes, we should do something like that - we need to think about the amount/kind of information we want to place in the 'fiche' describing each consultant. It should be enough, but not too much either.
I would like to have consultancy for consultants. I mean I read that sometimes that developers are just too shy to sell services with smalltalk or do not dare to introduce it to their IT. There should be an instance encouraging those people or be just an address to target questions to.
I would like to show to the world that if they start business around Pharo they can find experts.
Norbert
On 01 Jun 2013, at 17:28, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:42 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
Am 01.06.2013 um 08:10 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>:
Hi guys
I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that the quality of our community is in general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using well the association. I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo that the world knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult.
So what do you think? I would use the association in a much clearer way.
I think you need to elaborate here. On this level of detail the only answer could be: good idea! I cannot see what you have on your mind when you like to use the association in a clearer way.
I mean that we could use the association as a show room for talented person "selling" their expertise :)
Yes, we should do something like that - we need to think about the amount/kind of information we want to place in the 'fiche' describing each consultant. It should be enough, but not too much either.
I would like to have consultancy for consultants. I mean I read that sometimes that developers are just too shy to sell services with smalltalk or do not dare to introduce it to their IT. There should be an instance encouraging those people or be just an address to target questions to.
I would like to show to the world that if they start business around Pharo they can find experts.
Norbert
On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr
wrote:
On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:42 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
Am 01.06.2013 um 08:10 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse <
stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>:
Hi guys
I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that
the quality of our community is in
general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using well the association. I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo that the world knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult.
So what do you think? I would use the association in a much clearer way.
I think you need to elaborate here. On this level of detail the only answer could be: good idea! I cannot see what you have on your mind when you like to use the association in a clearer way.
I mean that we could use the association as a show room for talented person "selling" their expertise :)
I would like to have consultancy for consultants. I mean I read that sometimes that developers are just too shy to sell services with smalltalk or do not dare to introduce it to their IT. There should be an instance encouraging those people or be just an address to target questions to.
I would like to show to the world that if they start business around Pharo they can find experts.
yes, this point is very very very important I think. +9999
Norbert
-- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
Am 01.06.2013 um 17:28 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>:
On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:42 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
Am 01.06.2013 um 08:10 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>:
Hi guys
I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that the quality of our community is in general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using well the association. I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo that the world knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult.
So what do you think? I would use the association in a much clearer way.
I think you need to elaborate here. On this level of detail the only answer could be: good idea! I cannot see what you have on your mind when you like to use the association in a clearer way.
I mean that we could use the association as a show room for talented person "selling" their expertise :)
I would like to have consultancy for consultants. I mean I read that sometimes that developers are just too shy to sell services with smalltalk or do not dare to introduce it to their IT. There should be an instance encouraging those people or be just an address to target questions to.
I would like to show to the world that if they start business around Pharo they can find experts.
Agreed. I think that is important, too. I just like as well help people finding the right arguments (or myth counter arguments) to be able to implement smalltalk in their company themselves. It is the same as programming: You have to unlearn "some truths" first before you can argue a better way. It works for me and people I talk to. And I (and other people, too..I guess) are open to answer questions about this. Norbert
I'd say creating visible success cases w/ real business value is what will drive usage forward. Without that, well, that's yet another tech in the pile. Once business sees that using Pharo has a clear ROI, then, who cares about justifications. BTW, interesting programming doesn't occurs in the IT departments where you have to justify everything but in business units where doing something that matters to the bottom line is what counts. (That's why business units do a lot of skunkworks projects in their area... and why we should focus there). Phil On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 9:00 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
Am 01.06.2013 um 17:28 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr
:
On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:42 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
Am 01.06.2013 um 08:10 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse <
stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>:
Hi guys
I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that
the quality of our community is in
general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using well the association. I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo that the world knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult.
So what do you think? I would use the association in a much clearer way.
I think you need to elaborate here. On this level of detail the only answer could be: good idea! I cannot see what you have on your mind when you like to use the association in a clearer way.
I mean that we could use the association as a show room for talented person "selling" their expertise :)
I would like to have consultancy for consultants. I mean I read that sometimes that developers are just too shy to sell services with smalltalk or do not dare to introduce it to their IT. There should be an instance encouraging those people or be just an address to target questions to.
I would like to show to the world that if they start business around Pharo they can find experts.
Agreed. I think that is important, too. I just like as well help people finding the right arguments (or myth counter arguments) to be able to implement smalltalk in their company themselves. It is the same as programming: You have to unlearn "some truths" first before you can argue a better way. It works for me and people I talk to. And I (and other people, too..I guess) are open to answer questions about this.
Norbert
Am 03.06.2013 um 09:47 schrieb phil@highoctane.be:
I'd say creating visible success cases w/ real business value is what will drive usage forward.
Without that, well, that's yet another tech in the pile.
Maybe. But my experience shows that it is more effective than having developers think about marketing or "real business value" (whatever that might be). Sorry, but most of us don't have a glue about it. It is just high hopes (juggling with learned business acronyms) that are hard to achieve and it is the safest way that nothing will happen. Anyway I'm just responding because you are weighing efforts. If there are more things that we can do I'm pretty sure we should do all of them. Norbert
Once business sees that using Pharo has a clear ROI, then, who cares about justifications.
BTW, interesting programming doesn't occurs in the IT departments where you have to justify everything but in business units where doing something that matters to the bottom line is what counts. (That's why business units do a lot of skunkworks projects in their area... and why we should focus there).
Phil
On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 9:00 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
Am 01.06.2013 um 17:28 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>:
On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:42 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
Am 01.06.2013 um 08:10 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>:
Hi guys
I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that the quality of our community is in general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using well the association. I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo that the world knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult.
So what do you think? I would use the association in a much clearer way.
I think you need to elaborate here. On this level of detail the only answer could be: good idea! I cannot see what you have on your mind when you like to use the association in a clearer way.
I mean that we could use the association as a show room for talented person "selling" their expertise :)
I would like to have consultancy for consultants. I mean I read that sometimes that developers are just too shy to sell services with smalltalk or do not dare to introduce it to their IT. There should be an instance encouraging those people or be just an address to target questions to.
I would like to show to the world that if they start business around Pharo they can find experts.
Agreed. I think that is important, too. I just like as well help people finding the right arguments (or myth counter arguments) to be able to implement smalltalk in their company themselves. It is the same as programming: You have to unlearn "some truths" first before you can argue a better way. It works for me and people I talk to. And I (and other people, too..I guess) are open to answer questions about this.
Norbert
Get the bosses to trust you and sign the check. The you use the tech you want. Now, that's how I do work, and it pays off. Less hassles, more money, more solutions that do work. That's what a consultant does. A contractor is another matter of course. I doubt anyone in my business club cares an iota about the tech details. Real business value is easy: I spend 100K, I spare 20 million. Risk? Low. Decision: No brainer: go. When you know businesses spend 50K on toilet paper and office supplies a year, you can target your pricing a bit higher. I am always surprised that IT guys are playing that silly race to the bottom and behave as commodity . It's the mindset. And Pharo can be a powerful weapon in that game. Phil On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
Am 03.06.2013 um 09:47 schrieb phil@highoctane.be:
I'd say creating visible success cases w/ real business value is what will drive usage forward.
Without that, well, that's yet another tech in the pile.
Maybe. But my experience shows that it is more effective than having developers think about marketing or "real business value" (whatever that might be). Sorry, but most of us don't have a glue about it. It is just high hopes (juggling with learned business acronyms) that are hard to achieve and it is the safest way that nothing will happen. Anyway I'm just responding because you are weighing efforts. If there are more things that we can do I'm pretty sure we should do all of them.
Norbert
Once business sees that using Pharo has a clear ROI, then, who cares about justifications.
BTW, interesting programming doesn't occurs in the IT departments where you have to justify everything but in business units where doing something that matters to the bottom line is what counts. (That's why business units do a lot of skunkworks projects in their area... and why we should focus there).
Phil
On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 9:00 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
Am 01.06.2013 um 17:28 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse < stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>:
On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:42 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
Am 01.06.2013 um 08:10 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse <
stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>:
Hi guys
I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that
the quality of our community is in
general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using well the association. I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo that the world knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult.
So what do you think? I would use the association in a much clearer way.
I think you need to elaborate here. On this level of detail the only answer could be: good idea! I cannot see what you have on your mind when you like to use the association in a clearer way.
I mean that we could use the association as a show room for talented person "selling" their expertise :)
I would like to have consultancy for consultants. I mean I read that sometimes that developers are just too shy to sell services with smalltalk or do not dare to introduce it to their IT. There should be an instance encouraging those people or be just an address to target questions to.
I would like to show to the world that if they start business around Pharo they can find experts.
Agreed. I think that is important, too. I just like as well help people finding the right arguments (or myth counter arguments) to be able to implement smalltalk in their company themselves. It is the same as programming: You have to unlearn "some truths" first before you can argue a better way. It works for me and people I talk to. And I (and other people, too..I guess) are open to answer questions about this.
Norbert
IMHO the key to success is certification. Certified courses should be delivered to consolidate the community, starting by offering on universities. I think the reasons for this are somewhat clear. 2013/6/3 phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be>
Get the bosses to trust you and sign the check. The you use the tech you want.
Now, that's how I do work, and it pays off. Less hassles, more money, more solutions that do work.
That's what a consultant does. A contractor is another matter of course.
I doubt anyone in my business club cares an iota about the tech details.
Real business value is easy: I spend 100K, I spare 20 million. Risk? Low. Decision: No brainer: go.
When you know businesses spend 50K on toilet paper and office supplies a year, you can target your pricing a bit higher. I am always surprised that IT guys are playing that silly race to the bottom and behave as commodity .
It's the mindset. And Pharo can be a powerful weapon in that game.
Phil
On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
Am 03.06.2013 um 09:47 schrieb phil@highoctane.be:
I'd say creating visible success cases w/ real business value is what will drive usage forward.
Without that, well, that's yet another tech in the pile.
Maybe. But my experience shows that it is more effective than having developers think about marketing or "real business value" (whatever that might be). Sorry, but most of us don't have a glue about it. It is just high hopes (juggling with learned business acronyms) that are hard to achieve and it is the safest way that nothing will happen. Anyway I'm just responding because you are weighing efforts. If there are more things that we can do I'm pretty sure we should do all of them.
Norbert
Once business sees that using Pharo has a clear ROI, then, who cares about justifications.
BTW, interesting programming doesn't occurs in the IT departments where you have to justify everything but in business units where doing something that matters to the bottom line is what counts. (That's why business units do a lot of skunkworks projects in their area... and why we should focus there).
Phil
On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 9:00 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
Am 01.06.2013 um 17:28 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse < stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>:
On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:42 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
Am 01.06.2013 um 08:10 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse <
stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>:
Hi guys
I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that
the quality of our community is in
general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using well the association. I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo that the world knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult.
So what do you think? I would use the association in a much clearer way.
I think you need to elaborate here. On this level of detail the only answer could be: good idea! I cannot see what you have on your mind when you like to use the association in a clearer way.
I mean that we could use the association as a show room for talented person "selling" their expertise :)
I would like to have consultancy for consultants. I mean I read that sometimes that developers are just too shy to sell services with smalltalk or do not dare to introduce it to their IT. There should be an instance encouraging those people or be just an address to target questions to.
I would like to show to the world that if they start business around Pharo they can find experts.
Agreed. I think that is important, too. I just like as well help people finding the right arguments (or myth counter arguments) to be able to implement smalltalk in their company themselves. It is the same as programming: You have to unlearn "some truths" first before you can argue a better way. It works for me and people I talk to. And I (and other people, too..I guess) are open to answer questions about this.
Norbert
On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 3:10 AM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>wrote:
Hi guys
I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that the quality of our community is in general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using well the association. I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo that the world knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult.
So what do you think? I would use the association in a much clearer way.
Hi Stef. Considering myself a "Pharo Consultant", two things are happening to me. And maybe some other are in the same situation. Maybe we are poor at selling ourself. But it may be (as my case) because we don't need it now :) For example I don't want to advertise myself if I know I won't be able to have free time for the next months. So...maybe the fact that consultants are quite is because they have too much work hehehe. At least myself, if I need more work (if I have free time), I would send an email to the mailing list. On the other hand, we, consultants, should not only think in the near future but also in the long term. So even if may not be able to have free time in the short term, we should marketing us a bit better. So....where should be add ourself and describe a bit our expertise? -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
On Jun 1, 2013, at 11:55 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 3:10 AM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote: Hi guys
I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that the quality of our community is in general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using well the association. I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo that the world knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult.
So what do you think? I would use the association in a much clearer way.
Hi Stef. Considering myself a "Pharo Consultant", two things are happening to me. And maybe some other are in the same situation. Maybe we are poor at selling ourself. But it may be (as my case) because we don't need it now :) For example I don't want to advertise myself if I know I won't be able to have free time for the next months. So...maybe the fact that consultants are quite is because they have too much work hehehe. At least myself, if I need more work (if I have free time), I would send an email to the mailing list.
On the other hand, we, consultants, should not only think in the near future but also in the long term. So even if may not be able to have free time in the short term, we should marketing us a bit better.
Exactly
So....where should be add ourself and describe a bit our expertise?
I would use the pharo association for that. And if you do it well all the people will follow :)
-- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
participants (9)
-
Bahman Movaqar -
bobn＠rogers.com -
btc＠openinworld.com -
Jesus Nuñez -
Mariano Martinez Peck -
Norbert Hartl -
phil＠highoctane.be -
Stéphane Ducasse -
Sven Van Caekenberghe