On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:57, phil@highoctane.be wrote:

https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Issue-Validator-simple/7294/artifact... <https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Issue-Validator-simple/7294/artifact...> is not integrated for some Monkey reason anyway - still should b/c if you put sublimish, you need a decent matching Spotter.

Also, I see https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19796/Remove-duplicate-code-from-Sublimish... <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19796/Remove-duplicate-code-from-Sublimish...> on 5/3. If this moves forward, why not the other one?

BTW Sublimish was an extra thing. Who got that in image?

I don’t know. It shouldn’t :) What we should do is to create a page for themes and links to it (and they should be in catalog) :) Esteban

Phil

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:43 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>> wrote:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:17, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi,

First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my use, but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter, and I like in general all this new additions.

By the way, even if I like it, I would not have integrated SublimishTheme. For same reason I didn’t integrated DarkMetalTheme: My idea is to have just two themes *in image*: one white, one dark, and allow people to install other themes from catalog.

Why? Because each class inside image becomes our responsibility and then a maintainability issue. With themes in particular already happened that existing themes became abandonware inside the image and we needed to clean up, not without problems.

cheers, Esteban

ps: which means also yes: that issue got integrated because I failed to control the flow of issues...

...

And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements so a good thing.

But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) frozen version?

Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. If I can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that use linux and mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits version.

There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example why Spotter does not shows search line.

Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that meant:

- some important changes in UFFI - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for Cairo (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that causes a callback problem).

I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in general deserves a lot of testing.

I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the train now), but in the mean time you can download all from here:

http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip <http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip <http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip> (linux) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip <http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip> (mac) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip <http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip> (in case you need them)

cheers, Esteban

On 6 Mar 2017, at 09:22, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com> wrote:

2017-03-06 8:20 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>>:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:57, phil@highoctane.be <mailto:phil@highoctane.be> wrote:

https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Issue-Validator-simple/7294/artifact... <https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Issue-Validator-simple/7294/artifact...> is not integrated for some Monkey reason anyway - still should b/c if you put sublimish, you need a decent matching Spotter.

Also, I see https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19796/Remove-duplicate-code-from-Sublimish... <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19796/Remove-duplicate-code-from-Sublimish...> on 5/3. If this moves forward, why not the other one?

BTW Sublimish was an extra thing. Who got that in image?

I don’t know. It shouldn’t :)

What we should do is to create a page for themes and links to it (and they should be in catalog) :)

Well, it was me who proposed the slice and yes, I was aware of the fact that I should not do it because of code freeze (I was not aware of the two themes policy).

it is not a policy, it is just the idea I have :)

We can remove it again, I will prepare a slice.

problem with it is that is makes ripples. If community want it (is nice), we can include it, but I would wait for P7, yes. Esteban

-- Pavel

Esteban

...

Phil

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:43 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>> wrote:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:17, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi,

First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my use, but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter, and I like in general all this new additions.

By the way, even if I like it, I would not have integrated SublimishTheme. For same reason I didn’t integrated DarkMetalTheme: My idea is to have just two themes *in image*: one white, one dark, and allow people to install other themes from catalog.

Why? Because each class inside image becomes our responsibility and then a maintainability issue. With themes in particular already happened that existing themes became abandonware inside the image and we needed to clean up, not without problems.

cheers, Esteban

ps: which means also yes: that issue got integrated because I failed to control the flow of issues...

...

And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements so a good thing.

But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) frozen version?

Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. If I can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that use linux and mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits version.

There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example why Spotter does not shows search line.

Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that meant:

- some important changes in UFFI - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for Cairo (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that causes a callback problem).

I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in general deserves a lot of testing.

I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the train now), but in the mean time you can download all from here:

http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip <http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip <http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip> (linux) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip <http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip> (mac) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip <http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip> (in case you need them)

cheers, Esteban

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 9:42 AM, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com> wrote:

2017-03-06 9:29 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 09:22, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com> wrote:

2017-03-06 8:20 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:57, phil@highoctane.be wrote:

https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Issue-Validator-simp le/7294/artifact/report.html is not integrated for some Monkey reason anyway - still should b/c if you put sublimish, you need a decent matching Spotter.

Also, I see https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19796/Remove-duplicate -code-from-SublimishTheme on 5/3. If this moves forward, why not the other one?

BTW Sublimish was an extra thing. Who got that in image?

I don’t know. It shouldn’t :)

What we should do is to create a page for themes and links to it (and they should be in catalog) :)

Well, it was me who proposed the slice and yes, I was aware of the fact that I should not do it because of code freeze (I was not aware of the two themes policy).

it is not a policy, it is just the idea I have :)

We can remove it again, I will prepare a slice.

problem with it is that is makes ripples. If community want it (is nice), we can include it, but I would wait for P7, yes.

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19801/Remove-SublimishTheme At least it was an advertisement for this theme that moved it forward and the integration of it helped to improve the dark theme too. And showed again how much we need the concept of palettes used strictly in the system.

Ah ah, yeah, I had a ThemePalette thing but resisted rewiring everything. Jokes aside, yes, this is much needed as the current intent based colors with lighter/darker/lighter lighter and other tricks should in fact go into a true palette. I think that we should at least cover this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_escape_code#Colors The 16 and 256 versions. As Pharo on the CLI is becoming a thing, that will be helpful there. There are also tons of palettes in Roassal but not to the same purpose. Along with some of these in spirit: http://www.pawelporwisz.pl/winamp/winamp_color_themes_en.php http://customize.org/winamp3/help/How_To_Create_Winamp_Skins We can learn from http://www.skinconsortium.com/ (yeah I like Winamp, old me). Pharo with such a look, oh yeah. One thing I would love to have in the theme is the notion of an 'accent', like they do in MS products. The current DarkTheme has a blue tint, but if we could easily switch that to orange/purple/green/... it would be awesome. I learned a few things digging into Sublimish and GT, so, I think I can tweak Sublimish to have 2 things: a PharoAccentDarkTheme and a SublimishTheme that comes as a subclass of it. Same with GT. Tell me what you think. Phil

-- Pavel

...

Esteban

-- Pavel

...

Esteban

Phil

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:43 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:17, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my use, but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter, and I like in general all this new additions.

By the way, even if I like it, I would not have integrated SublimishTheme. For same reason I didn’t integrated DarkMetalTheme: My idea is to have just two themes *in image*: one white, one dark, and allow people to install other themes from catalog.

Why? Because each class inside image becomes our responsibility and then a maintainability issue. With themes in particular already happened that existing themes became abandonware inside the image and we needed to clean up, not without problems.

cheers, Esteban

ps: which means also yes: that issue got integrated because I failed to control the flow of issues...

And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements so a good thing.

But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) frozen version?

Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. If I can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that use linux and mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits version.

There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example why Spotter does not shows search line.

Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that meant:

- some important changes in UFFI - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for Cairo (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that causes a callback problem).

I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in general deserves a lot of testing.

I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the train now), but in the mean time you can download all from here:

http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip (linux) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip (mac) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip (in case you need them)

cheers, Esteban

On 6 Mar 2017, at 19:51, stepharong <stepharong@free.fr> wrote:

We should make it available from the catalog :)

Yes, it most certainly should be. If only we could then tell user to type Shift-Enter Sublimish Enter to install it using Spotter right from the catalog ;-) Sorry, I couldn't resist ... <ducking>

2017-03-06 9:29 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 09:22, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com> wrote:

2017-03-06 8:20 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:57, phil@highoctane.be wrote:

https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Issue-Validator-simple/7294/artifact... is not integrated for some Monkey reason anyway - still should b/c if you put sublimish, you need a decent matching Spotter.

Also, I see https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19796/Remove-duplicate-code-from-Sublimish... on 5/3. If this moves forward, why not the other one?

BTW Sublimish was an extra thing. Who got that in image?

I don’t know. It shouldn’t :)

What we should do is to create a page for themes and links to it (and they should be in catalog) :)

Well, it was me who proposed the slice and yes, I was aware of the fact that I should not do it because of code freeze (I was not aware of the two themes policy).

it is not a policy, it is just the idea I have :)

...

We can remove it again, I will prepare a slice.

problem with it is that is makes ripples. If community want it (is nice), we can include it, but I would wait for P7, yes.

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19801/Remove-SublimishTheme At least it was an advertisement for this theme that moved it forward and the integration of it helped to improve the dark theme too. And showed again how much we need the concept of palettes used strictly in the system.

-- Pavel

Esteban

...

-- Pavel

Esteban

...

Phil

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:43 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:17, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my use, but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter, and I like in general all this new additions.

By the way, even if I like it, I would not have integrated SublimishTheme. For same reason I didn’t integrated DarkMetalTheme: My idea is to have just two themes *in image*: one white, one dark, and allow people to install other themes from catalog.

Why? Because each class inside image becomes our responsibility and then a maintainability issue. With themes in particular already happened that existing themes became abandonware inside the image and we needed to clean up, not without problems.

cheers, Esteban

ps: which means also yes: that issue got integrated because I failed to control the flow of issues...

...

And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements so a good thing.

But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) frozen version?

Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. If I can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that use linux and mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits version.

There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example why Spotter does not shows search line.

Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that meant:

- some important changes in UFFI - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for Cairo (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that causes a callback problem).

I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in general deserves a lot of testing.

I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the train now), but in the mean time you can download all from here:

http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip (linux) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip (mac) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip (in case you need them)

cheers, Esteban

-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

The problem is that there are people who give lectures in universities with bad internet (internet is bad in most of the universities I tried) and they done want freezes. On the other hand we have people who sit in their offices with fast machines, fast internet and they want features. Until now we were looking at how to satisfy one of the groups and which one exactly. Why not to try finding a solution for both. For example we can have the plugging enabled by default and have Spotter measuring the time needed to do a query. Whenever the time surpasses frustration limit (10 sec? I duno) Spotter will ask if the user wants to turn off the plugin, of turns it of automatically and tells where to re-enable it. The other way would be to have known plugins to appear at the bottom of Spotter, and a user can install/enable them with one click. So when you search but there is nothing you know that there are more plugins that may solve your problem. Yes it is more complicated to implement in in a smart way rather them just set the default boolean value of a setting, but we spend too much time anyway convincing the other side that we are right… Uko

On 6 Mar 2017, at 21:30, stepharong <stepharong@free.fr> wrote:

One day I would like to invite you to give a lecture in a not that bad french university with a not that good network. Each time Pharo freezes you pay me 5 Euros only and we can go and pay some really expensive restaurant with your money. Simple on my machine it times out every five minutes.

<sorry I could not resist>

...

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 19:51, stepharong <stepharong@free.fr> wrote:

We should make it available from the catalog :)

Yes, it most certainly should be.

If only we could then tell user to type

Shift-Enter Sublimish Enter

to install it using Spotter right from the catalog ;-)

Sorry, I couldn't resist ... <ducking>

...

2017-03-06 9:29 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 09:22, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com> wrote:

2017-03-06 8:20 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:57, phil@highoctane.be wrote:

https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Issue-Validator-simple/7294/artifact... is not integrated for some Monkey reason anyway - still should b/c if you put sublimish, you need a decent matching Spotter.

Also, I see https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19796/Remove-duplicate-code-from-Sublimish... on 5/3. If this moves forward, why not the other one?

BTW Sublimish was an extra thing. Who got that in image?

I don’t know. It shouldn’t :)

What we should do is to create a page for themes and links to it (and they should be in catalog) :)

Well, it was me who proposed the slice and yes, I was aware of the fact that I should not do it because of code freeze (I was not aware of the two themes policy).

it is not a policy, it is just the idea I have :)

...

We can remove it again, I will prepare a slice.

problem with it is that is makes ripples. If community want it (is nice), we can include it, but I would wait for P7, yes.

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19801/Remove-SublimishTheme At least it was an advertisement for this theme that moved it forward and the integration of it helped to improve the dark theme too. And showed again how much we need the concept of palettes used strictly in the system.

-- Pavel

Esteban

...

-- Pavel

Esteban

...

Phil

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:43 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:17, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my use, but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter, and I like in general all this new additions.

By the way, even if I like it, I would not have integrated SublimishTheme. For same reason I didn’t integrated DarkMetalTheme: My idea is to have just two themes *in image*: one white, one dark, and allow people to install other themes from catalog.

Why? Because each class inside image becomes our responsibility and then a maintainability issue. With themes in particular already happened that existing themes became abandonware inside the image and we needed to clean up, not without problems.

cheers, Esteban

ps: which means also yes: that issue got integrated because I failed to control the flow of issues...

...

And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements so a good thing.

But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) frozen version?

Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. If I can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that use linux and mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits version.

There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example why Spotter does not shows search line.

Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that meant:

- some important changes in UFFI - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for Cairo (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that causes a callback problem).

I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in general deserves a lot of testing.

I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the train now), but in the mean time you can download all from here:

http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip (linux) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip (mac) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip (in case you need them)

cheers, Esteban

-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

I am not sure. I think that there may be many-many distributions. Because now we are talking about one feature of Spotter. There is definitely another tool that has controversial usage. Even with QualityAssistant there are rules which are useful for novices, but annoying for some experienced developers. So then you can have Pro and Newb versions. But as the result you will have Pro/Fast-Internet, Newb/Fast-Internet, Pro/Slow-Internet, Newb/Slow-Internet. I think you get an idea. Yes, now I’m also upset that the feature is not active by default (although I just saved the setting and forgot about it). But in a long run I think that we need a way to modularly compose images for our needs. Uko

On 6 Mar 2017, at 23:18, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:

I know, it is just a conflict in goals/objectives/target audience.

I think we can only solve that with 2 versions, an edu and a pro version, that maybe should only differ in a couple of preferences and defaults.

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 22:55, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:

The problem is that there are people who give lectures in universities with bad internet (internet is bad in most of the universities I tried) and they done want freezes. On the other hand we have people who sit in their offices with fast machines, fast internet and they want features. Until now we were looking at how to satisfy one of the groups and which one exactly. Why not to try finding a solution for both. For example we can have the plugging enabled by default and have Spotter measuring the time needed to do a query. Whenever the time surpasses frustration limit (10 sec? I duno) Spotter will ask if the user wants to turn off the plugin, of turns it of automatically and tells where to re-enable it. The other way would be to have known plugins to appear at the bottom of Spotter, and a user can install/enable them with one click. So when you search but there is nothing you know that there are more plugins that may solve your problem.

Yes it is more complicated to implement in in a smart way rather them just set the default boolean value of a setting, but we spend too much time anyway convincing the other side that we are right…

Uko

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 21:30, stepharong <stepharong@free.fr> wrote:

One day I would like to invite you to give a lecture in a not that bad french university with a not that good network. Each time Pharo freezes you pay me 5 Euros only and we can go and pay some really expensive restaurant with your money. Simple on my machine it times out every five minutes.

<sorry I could not resist>

...

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 19:51, stepharong <stepharong@free.fr> wrote:

We should make it available from the catalog :)

Yes, it most certainly should be.

If only we could then tell user to type

Shift-Enter Sublimish Enter

to install it using Spotter right from the catalog ;-)

Sorry, I couldn't resist ... <ducking>

...

2017-03-06 9:29 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 09:22, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com> wrote:

2017-03-06 8:20 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:57, phil@highoctane.be wrote:

https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Issue-Validator-simple/7294/artifact... is not integrated for some Monkey reason anyway - still should b/c if you put sublimish, you need a decent matching Spotter.

Also, I see https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19796/Remove-duplicate-code-from-Sublimish... on 5/3. If this moves forward, why not the other one?

BTW Sublimish was an extra thing. Who got that in image?

I don’t know. It shouldn’t :)

What we should do is to create a page for themes and links to it (and they should be in catalog) :)

Well, it was me who proposed the slice and yes, I was aware of the fact that I should not do it because of code freeze (I was not aware of the two themes policy).

it is not a policy, it is just the idea I have :)

...

We can remove it again, I will prepare a slice.

problem with it is that is makes ripples. If community want it (is nice), we can include it, but I would wait for P7, yes.

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19801/Remove-SublimishTheme At least it was an advertisement for this theme that moved it forward and the integration of it helped to improve the dark theme too. And showed again how much we need the concept of palettes used strictly in the system.

-- Pavel

Esteban

...

-- Pavel

Esteban

...

Phil

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:43 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:17, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my use, but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter, and I like in general all this new additions.

By the way, even if I like it, I would not have integrated SublimishTheme. For same reason I didn’t integrated DarkMetalTheme: My idea is to have just two themes *in image*: one white, one dark, and allow people to install other themes from catalog.

Why? Because each class inside image becomes our responsibility and then a maintainability issue. With themes in particular already happened that existing themes became abandonware inside the image and we needed to clean up, not without problems.

cheers, Esteban

ps: which means also yes: that issue got integrated because I failed to control the flow of issues...

...

And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements so a good thing.

But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) frozen version?

Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. If I can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that use linux and mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits version.

There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example why Spotter does not shows search line.

Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that meant:

- some important changes in UFFI - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for Cairo (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that causes a callback problem).

I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in general deserves a lot of testing.

I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the train now), but in the mean time you can download all from here:

http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip (linux) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip (mac) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip (in case you need them)

cheers, Esteban

-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 6:35 AM, phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be> wrote:

This is not only when teaching.

I was at a conference today and showcased some Grafoscopio.

Spotty wifi and crowded bandwith makes it bad looking.

We need an "Airplane mode" switch.

That is a cool way to describe it. A well know paradigm. Its a setting that probably would change daya to day more than any other, so perhaps it would even be reasonable to have this as a permanent mode button on the background, or the task bar much like MS Windows taskbar status icons. cheers -ben

Maybe can we have that available in the session from the settings.

Phil

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 10:55 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:

...

The problem is that there are people who give lectures in universities with bad internet (internet is bad in most of the universities I tried) and they done want freezes. On the other hand we have people who sit in their offices with fast machines, fast internet and they want features. Until now we were looking at how to satisfy one of the groups and which one exactly. Why not to try finding a solution for both. For example we can have the plugging enabled by default and have Spotter measuring the time needed to do a query. Whenever the time surpasses frustration limit (10 sec? I duno) Spotter will ask if the user wants to turn off the plugin, of turns it of automatically and tells where to re-enable it. The other way would be to have known plugins to appear at the bottom of Spotter, and a user can install/enable them with one click. So when you search but there is nothing you know that there are more plugins that may solve your problem.

Yes it is more complicated to implement in in a smart way rather them just set the default boolean value of a setting, but we spend too much time anyway convincing the other side that we are right…

Uko

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 21:30, stepharong <stepharong@free.fr> wrote:

One day I would like to invite you to give a lecture in a not that bad french university with a not that good network. Each time Pharo freezes you pay me 5 Euros only and we can go and pay some really expensive restaurant with your money. Simple on my machine it times out every five minutes.

<sorry I could not resist>

...

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 19:51, stepharong <stepharong@free.fr> wrote:

We should make it available from the catalog :)

Yes, it most certainly should be.

If only we could then tell user to type

Shift-Enter Sublimish Enter

to install it using Spotter right from the catalog ;-)

Sorry, I couldn't resist ... <ducking>

...

2017-03-06 9:29 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 09:22, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com> wrote:

2017-03-06 8:20 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:57, phil@highoctane.be wrote:

https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Issue-Validator-simple/7294/artifact... is not integrated for some Monkey reason anyway - still should b/c if you put sublimish, you need a decent matching Spotter.

Also, I see https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19796/Remove-duplicate-code-from-Sublimish... on 5/3. If this moves forward, why not the other one?

BTW Sublimish was an extra thing. Who got that in image?

I don’t know. It shouldn’t :)

What we should do is to create a page for themes and links to it (and they should be in catalog) :)

Well, it was me who proposed the slice and yes, I was aware of the fact that I should not do it because of code freeze (I was not aware of the two themes policy).

it is not a policy, it is just the idea I have :)

...

We can remove it again, I will prepare a slice.

problem with it is that is makes ripples. If community want it (is nice), we can include it, but I would wait for P7, yes.

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19801/Remove-SublimishTheme At least it was an advertisement for this theme that moved it forward and the integration of it helped to improve the dark theme too. And showed again how much we need the concept of palettes used strictly in the system.

-- Pavel

Esteban

...

-- Pavel

Esteban

...

Phil

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:43 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:17, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my use, but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter, and I like in general all this new additions.

By the way, even if I like it, I would not have integrated SublimishTheme. For same reason I didn’t integrated DarkMetalTheme: My idea is to have just two themes *in image*: one white, one dark, and allow people to install other themes from catalog.

Why? Because each class inside image becomes our responsibility and then a maintainability issue. With themes in particular already happened that existing themes became abandonware inside the image and we needed to clean up, not without problems.

cheers, Esteban

ps: which means also yes: that issue got integrated because I failed to control the flow of issues...

...

And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements so a good thing.

But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) frozen version?

Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. If I can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that use linux and mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits version.

There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example why Spotter does not shows search line.

Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that meant:

- some important changes in UFFI - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for Cairo (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that causes a callback problem).

I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in general deserves a lot of testing.

I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the train now), but in the mean time you can download all from here:

http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip (linux) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip (mac) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip (in case you need them)

cheers, Esteban

-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Frankly I fail to see the problem, if a tool connects to the internet and does not have some sort of timeout or speed check then is the obligation of the tool to fix that and not of Pharo to offer an airplane mode. Its would make an already complex pharo environment even more complex. Not to exclude the fact that having two mode will create useless confusion for beginners. Offer a new mode for Pharo ? No Offer methods that check internet connectivity and internet speed for pharo tool developers to use ? Yes I feel that Pharo can be simplified down to 1% without the need for a big compromise on features. Maybe it does not matter for us that are used to working with Blender but its a huge deal for beginners and if we want to attract a lot more new users. My dream is that version 8 be dedicated ONLY to simplifying the Pharo code, by removing all the extra fat. No new bug fixes (unless created by the removal of the code), no new features. I know we have bootstrap , but thats a completely different thing. On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 3:15 PM phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be> wrote:

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19818/Support-for-Airplane-mode-in-Pharo for keeping track of this

On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 1:02 AM, Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:

On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 6:35 AM, phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be> wrote:

...

This is not only when teaching.

I was at a conference today and showcased some Grafoscopio.

Spotty wifi and crowded bandwith makes it bad looking.

We need an "Airplane mode" switch.

That is a cool way to describe it. A well know paradigm. Its a setting that probably would change daya to day more than any other, so perhaps it would even be reasonable to have this as a permanent mode button on the background, or the task bar much like MS Windows taskbar status icons.

cheers -ben

...

Maybe can we have that available in the session from the settings.

Phil

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 10:55 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>

wrote:

...

...

The problem is that there are people who give lectures in universities with bad internet (internet is bad in most of the universities I tried)

and

...

they done want freezes. On the other hand we have people who sit in their offices with fast machines, fast internet and they want features. Until now we were looking at how to satisfy one of the groups and which one exactly. Why not to try finding a solution for both. For example we can have the plugging enabled by default and have Spotter measuring the time needed to do a query. Whenever the time surpasses frustration limit (10 sec? I duno) Spotter will ask if the user wants to turn off the plugin, of turns it of automatically and tells where to re-enable it. The other way would be to have known plugins to appear at the bottom of Spotter, and a user can install/enable them with one click. So when you search but there is nothing you know that there are more plugins that may solve your problem.

Yes it is more complicated to implement in in a smart way rather them just set the default boolean value of a setting, but we spend too much time anyway convincing the other side that we are right…

Uko

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 21:30, stepharong <stepharong@free.fr> wrote:

One day I would like to invite you to give a lecture in a not that bad french university with a not that good network. Each time Pharo freezes you pay me 5 Euros only and we can go and pay some really expensive restaurant with your money. Simple on my machine it times out every five minutes.

<sorry I could not resist>

...

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 19:51, stepharong <stepharong@free.fr> wrote:

We should make it available from the catalog :)

Yes, it most certainly should be.

If only we could then tell user to type

Shift-Enter Sublimish Enter

to install it using Spotter right from the catalog ;-)

Sorry, I couldn't resist ... <ducking>

...

2017-03-06 9:29 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 09:22, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com> wrote:

2017-03-06 8:20 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:57, phil@highoctane.be wrote:

https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Issue-Validator-simple/7294/artifact...

...

...

...

...

is not integrated for some Monkey reason anyway - still should b/c if you put sublimish, you need a decent matching Spotter.

Also, I see

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19796/Remove-duplicate-code-from-Sublimish...

...

on 5/3. If this moves forward, why not the other one?

BTW Sublimish was an extra thing. Who got that in image?

I don’t know. It shouldn’t :)

What we should do is to create a page for themes and links to it (and they should be in catalog) :)

Well, it was me who proposed the slice and yes, I was aware of the fact that I should not do it because of code freeze (I was not aware of the two themes policy).

it is not a policy, it is just the idea I have :)

...

We can remove it again, I will prepare a slice.

problem with it is that is makes ripples. If community want it (is nice), we can include it, but I would wait for P7, yes.

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19801/Remove-SublimishTheme At least it was an advertisement for this theme that moved it forward and the integration of it helped to improve the dark theme too. And showed again how much we need the concept of palettes used strictly in the system.

-- Pavel

Esteban

...

-- Pavel

Esteban

...

Phil

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:43 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:17, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my use, but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter,

and I like

...

...

...

in general all this new additions.

By the way, even if I like it, I would not have integrated SublimishTheme. For same reason I didn’t integrated DarkMetalTheme: My idea is to have just two themes *in image*: one white, one dark, and allow people to install other themes from catalog.

Why? Because each class inside image becomes our responsibility and then a maintainability issue. With themes in particular already happened that existing themes became abandonware inside the image and we needed to clean up, not without problems.

cheers, Esteban

ps: which means also yes: that issue got integrated because I failed to control the flow of issues...

...

And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements

so a

...

good thing.

But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) frozen version?

Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. If I can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that use linux and mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits version.

There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example why Spotter does not shows search line.

Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that meant:

- some important changes in UFFI - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for Cairo (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that causes a callback problem).

I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in general deserves a lot of testing.

I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the train now), but in the mean time you can download all from here:

http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip (linux) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip (mac) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip (in case you need them)

cheers, Esteban

-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

On Tue, Mar 07, 2017 at 04:03:12PM +0100, phil@highoctane.be wrote:

I see you are not teaching to people or running demos in a crowd with Pharo.

Otherwise, you would get the point I can tell you 100%

To me it seems like bad engineering. One does not query a network synchronously and expect things to just work (or work at all). We should take a hint from Node and JS and promises about handling this. This is a basic requirement that any novice JS web developer knows how to handle. Speaking of the opposite, I noticed that loading projects in Pharo 6 no longer completely freezes the UI (unlike 5), which is *thumbs up*. :) Peter

Phil

On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 3:19 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Frankly I fail to see the problem, if a tool connects to the internet and does not have some sort of timeout or speed check then is the obligation of the tool to fix that and not of Pharo to offer an airplane mode. Its would make an already complex pharo environment even more complex. Not to exclude the fact that having two mode will create useless confusion for beginners.

Offer a new mode for Pharo ? No Offer methods that check internet connectivity and internet speed for pharo tool developers to use ? Yes

I feel that Pharo can be simplified down to 1% without the need for a big compromise on features. Maybe it does not matter for us that are used to working with Blender but its a huge deal for beginners and if we want to attract a lot more new users.

My dream is that version 8 be dedicated ONLY to simplifying the Pharo code, by removing all the extra fat. No new bug fixes (unless created by the removal of the code), no new features. I know we have bootstrap , but thats a completely different thing.

On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 3:15 PM phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be> wrote:

...

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19818/Support-for- Airplane-mode-in-Pharo for keeping track of this

On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 1:02 AM, Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:

On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 6:35 AM, phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be> wrote:

...

This is not only when teaching.

I was at a conference today and showcased some Grafoscopio.

Spotty wifi and crowded bandwith makes it bad looking.

We need an "Airplane mode" switch.

That is a cool way to describe it. A well know paradigm. Its a setting that probably would change daya to day more than any other, so perhaps it would even be reasonable to have this as a permanent mode button on the background, or the task bar much like MS Windows taskbar status icons.

cheers -ben

...

Maybe can we have that available in the session from the settings.

Phil

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 10:55 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>

wrote:

...

...

The problem is that there are people who give lectures in universities with bad internet (internet is bad in most of the universities I

tried) and

...

they done want freezes. On the other hand we have people who sit in their offices with fast machines, fast internet and they want features. Until now we were looking at how to satisfy one of the groups and which one exactly. Why not to try finding a solution for both. For example we can have the plugging enabled by default and have Spotter measuring the time needed to do a query. Whenever the time surpasses frustration limit (10 sec? I duno) Spotter will ask if the user wants to turn off the plugin, of turns it of automatically and tells where to re-enable it. The other way would be to have known plugins to appear at the bottom of Spotter, and a user can install/enable them with one click. So when you search but there is nothing you know that there are more plugins that may solve your problem.

Yes it is more complicated to implement in in a smart way rather them just set the default boolean value of a setting, but we spend too much time anyway convincing the other side that we are right…

Uko

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 21:30, stepharong <stepharong@free.fr> wrote:

One day I would like to invite you to give a lecture in a not that bad french university with a not that good network. Each time Pharo freezes you pay me 5 Euros only and we can go and pay some really expensive restaurant with your money. Simple on my machine it times out every five minutes.

<sorry I could not resist>

...

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 19:51, stepharong <stepharong@free.fr> wrote:

We should make it available from the catalog :)

Yes, it most certainly should be.

If only we could then tell user to type

Shift-Enter Sublimish Enter

to install it using Spotter right from the catalog ;-)

Sorry, I couldn't resist ... <ducking>

...

2017-03-06 9:29 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 09:22, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com

...

...

...

...

...

wrote:

2017-03-06 8:20 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com :

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:57, phil@highoctane.be wrote:

https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Issue-Validator- simple/7294/artifact/report.html is not integrated for some Monkey reason anyway - still should b/c if you put sublimish, you need a decent matching Spotter.

Also, I see https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19796/Remove-duplicate- code-from-SublimishTheme on 5/3. If this moves forward, why not the other one?

BTW Sublimish was an extra thing. Who got that in image?

I don’t know. It shouldn’t :)

What we should do is to create a page for themes and links to it (and they should be in catalog) :)

Well, it was me who proposed the slice and yes, I was aware of the fact that I should not do it because of code freeze (I was not aware of the two themes policy).

it is not a policy, it is just the idea I have :)

...

We can remove it again, I will prepare a slice.

problem with it is that is makes ripples. If community want it (is nice), we can include it, but I would wait for P7, yes.

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19801/Remove-SublimishTheme At least it was an advertisement for this theme that moved it forward and the integration of it helped to improve the dark theme too. And showed again how much we need the concept of palettes used strictly in the system.

-- Pavel

Esteban

...

-- Pavel

Esteban

...

Phil

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:43 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:17, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

wrote:

Hi,

First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my use, but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter, and I like in general all this new additions.

By the way, even if I like it, I would not have integrated SublimishTheme. For same reason I didn’t integrated DarkMetalTheme: My idea is to have just two themes *in image*: one white, one dark, and allow people to install other themes from catalog.

Why? Because each class inside image becomes our responsibility and then a maintainability issue. With themes in particular already happened that existing themes became abandonware inside the image and we needed to clean up, not without problems.

cheers, Esteban

ps: which means also yes: that issue got integrated because I failed to control the flow of issues...

...

And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements

so a

...

good thing.

But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) frozen version?

Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. If I can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that use linux and mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits version.

There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example why Spotter does not shows search line.

Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that meant:

- some important changes in UFFI - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for Cairo (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that causes a callback problem).

I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in general deserves a lot of testing.

I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the train now), but in the mean time you can download all from here:

http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip (linux) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip (mac) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip (in case you need them)

cheers, Esteban

-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Dimitris, but AFAIK when Spotter freezes it’s not using Metacello. It does an http request to pharo catalog. Isn’t this a problem with http request blocking the only thread that we have? Uko

On 9 Mar 2017, at 08:23, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:

I do not need to, the problem is obvious as the sun when one uses Monticello which can easily freeze the image on a slow connection. Still it's a Monticello problem, not a Pharo problem. But then that's not the most serious problem with Monticello.

On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 at 17:04, phil@highoctane.be <mailto:phil@highoctane.be> <phil@highoctane.be <mailto:phil@highoctane.be>> wrote: I see you are not teaching to people or running demos in a crowd with Pharo.

Otherwise, you would get the point I can tell you 100%

Phil

On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 3:19 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com <mailto:kilon.alios@gmail.com>> wrote: Frankly I fail to see the problem, if a tool connects to the internet and does not have some sort of timeout or speed check then is the obligation of the tool to fix that and not of Pharo to offer an airplane mode. Its would make an already complex pharo environment even more complex. Not to exclude the fact that having two mode will create useless confusion for beginners.

Offer a new mode for Pharo ? No Offer methods that check internet connectivity and internet speed for pharo tool developers to use ? Yes

I feel that Pharo can be simplified down to 1% without the need for a big compromise on features. Maybe it does not matter for us that are used to working with Blender but its a huge deal for beginners and if we want to attract a lot more new users.

My dream is that version 8 be dedicated ONLY to simplifying the Pharo code, by removing all the extra fat. No new bug fixes (unless created by the removal of the code), no new features. I know we have bootstrap , but thats a completely different thing.

On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 3:15 PM phil@highoctane.be <mailto:phil@highoctane.be> <phil@highoctane.be <mailto:phil@highoctane.be>> wrote: https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19818/Support-for-Airplane-mode-in-Pharo <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19818/Support-for-Airplane-mode-in-Pharo> for keeping track of this

On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 1:02 AM, Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com <mailto:btc@openinworld.com>> wrote: On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 6:35 AM, phil@highoctane.be <mailto:phil@highoctane.be> <phil@highoctane.be <mailto:phil@highoctane.be>> wrote:

...

This is not only when teaching.

I was at a conference today and showcased some Grafoscopio.

Spotty wifi and crowded bandwith makes it bad looking.

We need an "Airplane mode" switch.

That is a cool way to describe it. A well know paradigm. Its a setting that probably would change daya to day more than any other, so perhaps it would even be reasonable to have this as a permanent mode button on the background, or the task bar much like MS Windows taskbar status icons.

cheers -ben

...

Maybe can we have that available in the session from the settings.

Phil

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 10:55 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com <mailto:yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>> wrote:

...

The problem is that there are people who give lectures in universities with bad internet (internet is bad in most of the universities I tried) and they done want freezes. On the other hand we have people who sit in their offices with fast machines, fast internet and they want features. Until now we were looking at how to satisfy one of the groups and which one exactly. Why not to try finding a solution for both. For example we can have the plugging enabled by default and have Spotter measuring the time needed to do a query. Whenever the time surpasses frustration limit (10 sec? I duno) Spotter will ask if the user wants to turn off the plugin, of turns it of automatically and tells where to re-enable it. The other way would be to have known plugins to appear at the bottom of Spotter, and a user can install/enable them with one click. So when you search but there is nothing you know that there are more plugins that may solve your problem.

Yes it is more complicated to implement in in a smart way rather them just set the default boolean value of a setting, but we spend too much time anyway convincing the other side that we are right…

Uko

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 21:30, stepharong <stepharong@free.fr <mailto:stepharong@free.fr>> wrote:

One day I would like to invite you to give a lecture in a not that bad french university with a not that good network. Each time Pharo freezes you pay me 5 Euros only and we can go and pay some really expensive restaurant with your money. Simple on my machine it times out every five minutes.

<sorry I could not resist>

...

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 19:51, stepharong <stepharong@free.fr <mailto:stepharong@free.fr>> wrote:

We should make it available from the catalog :)

Yes, it most certainly should be.

If only we could then tell user to type

Shift-Enter Sublimish Enter

to install it using Spotter right from the catalog ;-)

Sorry, I couldn't resist ... <ducking>

...

2017-03-06 9:29 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>>:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 09:22, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com <mailto:pavel.krivanek@gmail.com>> wrote:

2017-03-06 8:20 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>>:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:57, phil@highoctane.be <mailto:phil@highoctane.be> wrote:

https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Issue-Validator-simple/7294/artifact... <https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Issue-Validator-simple/7294/artifact...> is not integrated for some Monkey reason anyway - still should b/c if you put sublimish, you need a decent matching Spotter.

Also, I see https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19796/Remove-duplicate-code-from-Sublimish... <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19796/Remove-duplicate-code-from-Sublimish...> on 5/3. If this moves forward, why not the other one?

BTW Sublimish was an extra thing. Who got that in image?

I don’t know. It shouldn’t :)

What we should do is to create a page for themes and links to it (and they should be in catalog) :)

Well, it was me who proposed the slice and yes, I was aware of the fact that I should not do it because of code freeze (I was not aware of the two themes policy).

it is not a policy, it is just the idea I have :)

...

We can remove it again, I will prepare a slice.

problem with it is that is makes ripples. If community want it (is nice), we can include it, but I would wait for P7, yes.

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19801/Remove-SublimishTheme <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19801/Remove-SublimishTheme> At least it was an advertisement for this theme that moved it forward and the integration of it helped to improve the dark theme too. And showed again how much we need the concept of palettes used strictly in the system.

-- Pavel

Esteban

...

-- Pavel

Esteban

...

Phil

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:43 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>> wrote:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:17, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi,

First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my use, but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter, and I like in general all this new additions.

By the way, even if I like it, I would not have integrated SublimishTheme. For same reason I didn’t integrated DarkMetalTheme: My idea is to have just two themes *in image*: one white, one dark, and allow people to install other themes from catalog.

Why? Because each class inside image becomes our responsibility and then a maintainability issue. With themes in particular already happened that existing themes became abandonware inside the image and we needed to clean up, not without problems.

cheers, Esteban

ps: which means also yes: that issue got integrated because I failed to control the flow of issues...

...

And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements so a good thing.

But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) frozen version?

Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. If I can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that use linux and mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits version.

There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example why Spotter does not shows search line.

Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that meant:

- some important changes in UFFI - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for Cairo (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that causes a callback problem).

I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in general deserves a lot of testing.

I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the train now), but in the mean time you can download all from here:

http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip <http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip <http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip> (linux) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip <http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip> (mac) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip <http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip> (in case you need them)

cheers, Esteban

-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ <http://www.opera.com/mail/>

-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ <http://www.opera.com/mail/>

Yes, you are right Sven. When I disable network the Spotter is not freezing. Do we have a way to do the DNS resolution asynchronously? I mean, is it doable in Pharo 7 or it is a big problem. I’m not an expert in the questions that require VM, but it seams that http requests can be executed without blocking the UI thread, is it possible to resolve DNS in the same way? Uko P.S. why there are TWO checkboxes in Settings for the catalog plugin in Spotter? And they are not synchronized by the way, so you need to turn on both.

On 9 Mar 2017, at 09:41, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:

Guys,

Please stop speculating, no it is not Monticello, no it is not HTTP access, no it is not networking itself, it is DNS resolution, in a very specific situation:

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18281/NetNameResolver-class-addressForName...

Note also that many, many people deploy Pharo in production contexts with heavy multi threading and networking loads with great success - that would not be possible if we did not get the basics right.

Sven

...

On 9 Mar 2017, at 09:31, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:

Dimitris,

but AFAIK when Spotter freezes it’s not using Metacello. It does an http request to pharo catalog. Isn’t this a problem with http request blocking the only thread that we have?

Uko

...

On 9 Mar 2017, at 08:23, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:

I do not need to, the problem is obvious as the sun when one uses Monticello which can easily freeze the image on a slow connection. Still it's a Monticello problem, not a Pharo problem. But then that's not the most serious problem with Monticello.

On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 at 17:04, phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be> wrote: I see you are not teaching to people or running demos in a crowd with Pharo.

Otherwise, you would get the point I can tell you 100%

Phil

On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 3:19 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote: Frankly I fail to see the problem, if a tool connects to the internet and does not have some sort of timeout or speed check then is the obligation of the tool to fix that and not of Pharo to offer an airplane mode. Its would make an already complex pharo environment even more complex. Not to exclude the fact that having two mode will create useless confusion for beginners.

Offer a new mode for Pharo ? No Offer methods that check internet connectivity and internet speed for pharo tool developers to use ? Yes

I feel that Pharo can be simplified down to 1% without the need for a big compromise on features. Maybe it does not matter for us that are used to working with Blender but its a huge deal for beginners and if we want to attract a lot more new users.

My dream is that version 8 be dedicated ONLY to simplifying the Pharo code, by removing all the extra fat. No new bug fixes (unless created by the removal of the code), no new features. I know we have bootstrap , but thats a completely different thing.

On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 3:15 PM phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be> wrote: https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19818/Support-for-Airplane-mode-in-Pharo for keeping track of this

On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 1:02 AM, Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote: On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 6:35 AM, phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be> wrote:

...

This is not only when teaching.

I was at a conference today and showcased some Grafoscopio.

Spotty wifi and crowded bandwith makes it bad looking.

We need an "Airplane mode" switch.

That is a cool way to describe it. A well know paradigm. Its a setting that probably would change daya to day more than any other, so perhaps it would even be reasonable to have this as a permanent mode button on the background, or the task bar much like MS Windows taskbar status icons.

cheers -ben

...

Maybe can we have that available in the session from the settings.

Phil

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 10:55 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:

...

The problem is that there are people who give lectures in universities with bad internet (internet is bad in most of the universities I tried) and they done want freezes. On the other hand we have people who sit in their offices with fast machines, fast internet and they want features. Until now we were looking at how to satisfy one of the groups and which one exactly. Why not to try finding a solution for both. For example we can have the plugging enabled by default and have Spotter measuring the time needed to do a query. Whenever the time surpasses frustration limit (10 sec? I duno) Spotter will ask if the user wants to turn off the plugin, of turns it of automatically and tells where to re-enable it. The other way would be to have known plugins to appear at the bottom of Spotter, and a user can install/enable them with one click. So when you search but there is nothing you know that there are more plugins that may solve your problem.

Yes it is more complicated to implement in in a smart way rather them just set the default boolean value of a setting, but we spend too much time anyway convincing the other side that we are right…

Uko

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 21:30, stepharong <stepharong@free.fr> wrote:

One day I would like to invite you to give a lecture in a not that bad french university with a not that good network. Each time Pharo freezes you pay me 5 Euros only and we can go and pay some really expensive restaurant with your money. Simple on my machine it times out every five minutes.

<sorry I could not resist>

...

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 19:51, stepharong <stepharong@free.fr> wrote:

We should make it available from the catalog :)

Yes, it most certainly should be.

If only we could then tell user to type

Shift-Enter Sublimish Enter

to install it using Spotter right from the catalog ;-)

Sorry, I couldn't resist ... <ducking>

...

2017-03-06 9:29 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 09:22, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com> wrote:

2017-03-06 8:20 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:57, phil@highoctane.be wrote:

https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Issue-Validator-simple/7294/artifact... is not integrated for some Monkey reason anyway - still should b/c if you put sublimish, you need a decent matching Spotter.

Also, I see https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19796/Remove-duplicate-code-from-Sublimish... on 5/3. If this moves forward, why not the other one?

BTW Sublimish was an extra thing. Who got that in image?

I don’t know. It shouldn’t :)

What we should do is to create a page for themes and links to it (and they should be in catalog) :)

Well, it was me who proposed the slice and yes, I was aware of the fact that I should not do it because of code freeze (I was not aware of the two themes policy).

it is not a policy, it is just the idea I have :)

...

We can remove it again, I will prepare a slice.

problem with it is that is makes ripples. If community want it (is nice), we can include it, but I would wait for P7, yes.

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19801/Remove-SublimishTheme At least it was an advertisement for this theme that moved it forward and the integration of it helped to improve the dark theme too. And showed again how much we need the concept of palettes used strictly in the system.

-- Pavel

Esteban

...

-- Pavel

Esteban

...

Phil

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:43 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:17, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my use, but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter, and I like in general all this new additions.

By the way, even if I like it, I would not have integrated SublimishTheme. For same reason I didn’t integrated DarkMetalTheme: My idea is to have just two themes *in image*: one white, one dark, and allow people to install other themes from catalog.

Why? Because each class inside image becomes our responsibility and then a maintainability issue. With themes in particular already happened that existing themes became abandonware inside the image and we needed to clean up, not without problems.

cheers, Esteban

ps: which means also yes: that issue got integrated because I failed to control the flow of issues...

...

And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements so a good thing.

But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) frozen version?

Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. If I can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that use linux and mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits version.

There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example why Spotter does not shows search line.

Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that meant:

- some important changes in UFFI - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for Cairo (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that causes a callback problem).

I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in general deserves a lot of testing.

I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the train now), but in the mean time you can download all from here:

http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip (linux) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip (mac) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip (in case you need them)

cheers, Esteban

-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Hi, yes, I know that the Spotter checkbox is a generic implementation and it is really cool. My point(s) is (are): 1) why are the checkboxes out of sync? When I added a checkbox to disable the QA Spotter plugin from within the QA settings, I reused spotters functionality, so enabling or disabling with change the status of both checkboxes and you don’t have to enable the functionality twice. 2) why are there 2 checkboxes? Because Esteban told me that it is confusing that when you search for critiques in settings you get duplicated results. That’s why I removed my other checkbox and rely only on Spotter settings. If there is a rule not to duplicate preferences, why is catalog not following it? Uko

On 9 Mar 2017, at 15:27, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:

Hi,

...

On Mar 9, 2017, at 3:22 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com <mailto:yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>> wrote:

Yes, you are right Sven.

When I disable network the Spotter is not freezing. Do we have a way to do the DNS resolution asynchronously? I mean, is it doable in Pharo 7 or it is a big problem. I’m not an expert in the questions that require VM, but it seams that http requests can be executed without blocking the UI thread, is it possible to resolve DNS in the same way?

Uko

P.S. why there are TWO checkboxes in Settings for the catalog plugin in Spotter? And they are not synchronized by the way, so you need to turn on both.

Each spotter extension comes with checkbox to disable them. This is a generic mechanism that is important for cases when people want to replace an existing extension with another variation. For example, people might have different preferred strategies to search for implementors (e.g., also search for class names).

Cheers, Doru

...

...

On 9 Mar 2017, at 09:41, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:

Guys,

Please stop speculating, no it is not Monticello, no it is not HTTP access, no it is not networking itself, it is DNS resolution, in a very specific situation:

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18281/NetNameResolver-class-addressForName...

Note also that many, many people deploy Pharo in production contexts with heavy multi threading and networking loads with great success - that would not be possible if we did not get the basics right.

Sven

...

On 9 Mar 2017, at 09:31, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:

Dimitris,

but AFAIK when Spotter freezes it’s not using Metacello. It does an http request to pharo catalog. Isn’t this a problem with http request blocking the only thread that we have?

Uko

...

On 9 Mar 2017, at 08:23, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:

I do not need to, the problem is obvious as the sun when one uses Monticello which can easily freeze the image on a slow connection. Still it's a Monticello problem, not a Pharo problem. But then that's not the most serious problem with Monticello.

On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 at 17:04, phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be> wrote: I see you are not teaching to people or running demos in a crowd with Pharo.

Otherwise, you would get the point I can tell you 100%

Phil

On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 3:19 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote: Frankly I fail to see the problem, if a tool connects to the internet and does not have some sort of timeout or speed check then is the obligation of the tool to fix that and not of Pharo to offer an airplane mode. Its would make an already complex pharo environment even more complex. Not to exclude the fact that having two mode will create useless confusion for beginners.

Offer a new mode for Pharo ? No Offer methods that check internet connectivity and internet speed for pharo tool developers to use ? Yes

I feel that Pharo can be simplified down to 1% without the need for a big compromise on features. Maybe it does not matter for us that are used to working with Blender but its a huge deal for beginners and if we want to attract a lot more new users.

My dream is that version 8 be dedicated ONLY to simplifying the Pharo code, by removing all the extra fat. No new bug fixes (unless created by the removal of the code), no new features. I know we have bootstrap , but thats a completely different thing.

On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 3:15 PM phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be> wrote: https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19818/Support-for-Airplane-mode-in-Pharo for keeping track of this

On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 1:02 AM, Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote: On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 6:35 AM, phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be> wrote:

...

This is not only when teaching.

I was at a conference today and showcased some Grafoscopio.

Spotty wifi and crowded bandwith makes it bad looking.

We need an "Airplane mode" switch.

That is a cool way to describe it. A well know paradigm. Its a setting that probably would change daya to day more than any other, so perhaps it would even be reasonable to have this as a permanent mode button on the background, or the task bar much like MS Windows taskbar status icons.

cheers -ben

...

Maybe can we have that available in the session from the settings.

Phil

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 10:55 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:

...

The problem is that there are people who give lectures in universities with bad internet (internet is bad in most of the universities I tried) and they done want freezes. On the other hand we have people who sit in their offices with fast machines, fast internet and they want features. Until now we were looking at how to satisfy one of the groups and which one exactly. Why not to try finding a solution for both. For example we can have the plugging enabled by default and have Spotter measuring the time needed to do a query. Whenever the time surpasses frustration limit (10 sec? I duno) Spotter will ask if the user wants to turn off the plugin, of turns it of automatically and tells where to re-enable it. The other way would be to have known plugins to appear at the bottom of Spotter, and a user can install/enable them with one click. So when you search but there is nothing you know that there are more plugins that may solve your problem.

Yes it is more complicated to implement in in a smart way rather them just set the default boolean value of a setting, but we spend too much time anyway convincing the other side that we are right…

Uko

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 21:30, stepharong <stepharong@free.fr> wrote:

One day I would like to invite you to give a lecture in a not that bad french university with a not that good network. Each time Pharo freezes you pay me 5 Euros only and we can go and pay some really expensive restaurant with your money. Simple on my machine it times out every five minutes.

<sorry I could not resist>

...

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 19:51, stepharong <stepharong@free.fr> wrote:

We should make it available from the catalog :)

Yes, it most certainly should be.

If only we could then tell user to type

Shift-Enter Sublimish Enter

to install it using Spotter right from the catalog ;-)

Sorry, I couldn't resist ... <ducking>

...

2017-03-06 9:29 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 09:22, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com> wrote:

2017-03-06 8:20 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:57, phil@highoctane.be wrote:

https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Issue-Validator-simple/7294/artifact... is not integrated for some Monkey reason anyway - still should b/c if you put sublimish, you need a decent matching Spotter.

Also, I see https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19796/Remove-duplicate-code-from-Sublimish... on 5/3. If this moves forward, why not the other one?

BTW Sublimish was an extra thing. Who got that in image?

I don’t know. It shouldn’t :)

What we should do is to create a page for themes and links to it (and they should be in catalog) :)

Well, it was me who proposed the slice and yes, I was aware of the fact that I should not do it because of code freeze (I was not aware of the two themes policy).

it is not a policy, it is just the idea I have :)

...

We can remove it again, I will prepare a slice.

problem with it is that is makes ripples. If community want it (is nice), we can include it, but I would wait for P7, yes.

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19801/Remove-SublimishTheme At least it was an advertisement for this theme that moved it forward and the integration of it helped to improve the dark theme too. And showed again how much we need the concept of palettes used strictly in the system.

-- Pavel

Esteban

...

-- Pavel

Esteban

...

Phil

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:43 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:17, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my use, but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter, and I like in general all this new additions.

By the way, even if I like it, I would not have integrated SublimishTheme. For same reason I didn’t integrated DarkMetalTheme: My idea is to have just two themes *in image*: one white, one dark, and allow people to install other themes from catalog.

Why? Because each class inside image becomes our responsibility and then a maintainability issue. With themes in particular already happened that existing themes became abandonware inside the image and we needed to clean up, not without problems.

cheers, Esteban

ps: which means also yes: that issue got integrated because I failed to control the flow of issues...

...

And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements so a good thing.

But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) frozen version?

Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. If I can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that use linux and mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits version.

There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example why Spotter does not shows search line.

Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that meant:

- some important changes in UFFI - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for Cairo (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that causes a callback problem).

I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in general deserves a lot of testing.

I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the train now), but in the mean time you can download all from here:

http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip (linux) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip (mac) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip (in case you need them)

cheers, Esteban

-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

-- www.tudorgirba.com <http://www.tudorgirba.com/> www.feenk.com <http://www.feenk.com/>

"Every successful trip needs a suitable vehicle."

Hi Torsten,

On 9 Mar 2017, at 23:04, Torsten Bergmann <astares@gmx.de> wrote:

Uko wrote:

...

If there is a rule not to duplicate preferences, why is catalog not following it?

Because at the time when I implemented it for catalog there was no other setting.

The enabling/disabling for all GT extension was introduced later. Also the confusing default was introduced later (with the more hidden spotter extension disabled and leaving the Catalog setting enabled) leading to this whole mess.

To be honest I dont care or respond anymore on the whole issue because as we now know from the long discussion the only outcome is that:

<sarcasm> - most of us should be knowledgable enough to know that two settings exist - most of us should become experts in fixing deficencies with startup scripts - most of us should accept that we have to hide features as deep as possible in the settings tree - most of us should accept that we have to make it as complicated as possible to load catalog projects - most of us should accept that we can display and access anything in spotter except catalog projects - most of us should accept that Pharo videos get broken and never match reality - most of us should continue to "rest in their comfort zone" - most of us should continue to be "an egoist instead of being an adult" - most of us should be allowed to speak up only when they presented Pharo at a university - most of us should start working with slow networks </sarcasm>

It is really sad but a many things sound like truth.

Fixing it by removing Spotter and Catalog completely from Pharo would possibly be the best solution. Anyone up for a slice?

While the solution is way more complicated (because we rest in our comfort zones) I will at least try to synchronize the checkboxes, so less people will be confused. Uko P.S. I know that I’m often harsh on this topic, but it is really frustrating. The catalog search feature is the second most common thing I use spotter for after searching method code. And there are so many roadblocks to use it. First I had to find the checkbox and enable it, then I had to discover that one checkbox is not enough and enable the other checkbox. And then I don’t care about freezes because I load additional packages, and a background image, and a porter plugin for querying github (it uses internet too). So when I don’t have internet I get freezes and exceptions without even opening Spotter.

Bye T.

Torsten Why are you full of bad energy? Having a setting is perfectly ok. Why all this bad energy. Do you think that this is nice to hear that I push solution for fucking african idiots? I spent so much time writing and producing solutions for newbies. I just spent three months fixing the Pharo by example book and THIS IS NOT MY JOB. Do you think that writing a full mooc that we can use to promote Pharo all over the world is not important? I was not in the mood to write it. For my CV a mooc is nothing. Zero impact. You see when people evaluate my CV I got feedback like "stephane is a brillant researcher but he is focusing too much on poor languages." And many other things. So now you can be aggressive and pissed. I decided long time ago that I do Pharo for positive energy. Now if you do not like what I'm doing I cannot do much. Stef

Uko wrote:

...

If there is a rule not to duplicate preferences, why is catalog not following it?

Because at the time when I implemented it for catalog there was no other setting.

The enabling/disabling for all GT extension was introduced later. Also the confusing default was introduced later (with the more hidden spotter extension disabled and leaving the Catalog setting enabled) leading to this whole mess.

To be honest I dont care or respond anymore on the whole issue because as we now know from the long discussion the only outcome is that:

<sarcasm> - most of us should be knowledgable enough to know that two settings exist - most of us should become experts in fixing deficencies with startup scripts - most of us should accept that we have to hide features as deep as possible in the settings tree - most of us should accept that we have to make it as complicated as possible to load catalog projects - most of us should accept that we can display and access anything in spotter except catalog projects - most of us should accept that Pharo videos get broken and never match reality - most of us should continue to "rest in their comfort zone" - most of us should continue to be "an egoist instead of being an adult" - most of us should be allowed to speak up only when they presented Pharo at a university - most of us should start working with slow networks </sarcasm>

Fixing it by removing Spotter and Catalog completely from Pharo would possibly be the best solution. Anyone up for a slice?

Bye T.

-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 20:38:27 +0100, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess@gmail.com> wrote:

2017-03-10 20:18 GMT+01:00 stepharong <stepharong@free.fr>:

...

Torsten

Why are you full of bad energy? Having a setting is perfectly ok. Why all this bad energy.

The problem is not having a setting, the problem is to have *two* distinct settings for the same thing.

Yes and this can be fixed to have only one. I do not see the problem. And I'm in favor to have one and I was never against it. Stef

...

Do you think that this is nice to hear that I push solution for fucking african idiots? I spent so much time writing and producing solutions for newbies. I just spent three months fixing the Pharo by example book and THIS IS NOT MY JOB. Do you think that writing a full mooc that we can use to promote Pharo all over the world is not important? I was not in the mood to write it. For my CV a mooc is nothing. Zero impact. You see when people evaluate my CV I got feedback like "stephane is a brillant researcher but he is focusing too much on poor languages." And many other things. So now you can be aggressive and pissed. I decided long time ago that I do Pharo for positive energy. Now if you do not like what I'm doing I cannot do much.

Stef

...

Uko wrote:

...

If there is a rule not to duplicate preferences, why is catalog not following it?

Because at the time when I implemented it for catalog there was no other setting.

The enabling/disabling for all GT extension was introduced later. Also the confusing default was introduced later (with the more hidden spotter extension disabled and leaving the Catalog setting enabled) leading to this whole mess.

To be honest I dont care or respond anymore on the whole issue because as we now know from the long discussion the only outcome is that:

<sarcasm> - most of us should be knowledgable enough to know that two settings exist - most of us should become experts in fixing deficencies with startup scripts - most of us should accept that we have to hide features as deep as possible in the settings tree - most of us should accept that we have to make it as complicated as possible to load catalog projects - most of us should accept that we can display and access anything in spotter except catalog projects - most of us should accept that Pharo videos get broken and never match reality - most of us should continue to "rest in their comfort zone" - most of us should continue to be "an egoist instead of being an adult" - most of us should be allowed to speak up only when they presented Pharo at a university - most of us should start working with slow networks </sarcasm>

Fixing it by removing Spotter and Catalog completely from Pharo would possibly be the best solution. Anyone up for a slice?

Bye T.

--Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

No it is not a Spotter bug, Spotter uses multi threading very well. So well you did not see it ;-) UI Monticello actions do indeed block the main UI thread, like almost all other tool actions. That is not necessarily bad, you want to wait for them. Monticello HTTP operations do have proper timeouts on networking.

On 9 Mar 2017, at 09:45, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:

Then fix Monticello and Spotter. Blocking the main thread this way is a very bad coding practice that coders should be aware of because even with a spaceship mode will still happen. Why make an extremely complex partially documented environment, even more complex. It's a Spotter bug not a Pharo design flaw. Plus an airplane mode makes zero sense, this 2017 , everything is connected to the internet nowadays. Airplane mode is used only on airplanes and even in their case it's supposed to be temporary for take off and landing. Disconnects and slow downs should be one of the first thing any code must deal with. Disabling internet connection ability is not a bug fix is monkey patching. On Thu, 9 Mar 2017 at 10:32, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote: Dimitris,

but AFAIK when Spotter freezes it’s not using Metacello. It does an http request to pharo catalog. Isn’t this a problem with http request blocking the only thread that we have?

Uko

...

On 9 Mar 2017, at 08:23, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:

I do not need to, the problem is obvious as the sun when one uses Monticello which can easily freeze the image on a slow connection. Still it's a Monticello problem, not a Pharo problem. But then that's not the most serious problem with Monticello.

On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 at 17:04, phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be> wrote: I see you are not teaching to people or running demos in a crowd with Pharo.

Otherwise, you would get the point I can tell you 100%

Phil

On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 3:19 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote: Frankly I fail to see the problem, if a tool connects to the internet and does not have some sort of timeout or speed check then is the obligation of the tool to fix that and not of Pharo to offer an airplane mode. Its would make an already complex pharo environment even more complex. Not to exclude the fact that having two mode will create useless confusion for beginners.

Offer a new mode for Pharo ? No Offer methods that check internet connectivity and internet speed for pharo tool developers to use ? Yes

I feel that Pharo can be simplified down to 1% without the need for a big compromise on features. Maybe it does not matter for us that are used to working with Blender but its a huge deal for beginners and if we want to attract a lot more new users.

My dream is that version 8 be dedicated ONLY to simplifying the Pharo code, by removing all the extra fat. No new bug fixes (unless created by the removal of the code), no new features. I know we have bootstrap , but thats a completely different thing.

On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 3:15 PM phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be> wrote: https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19818/Support-for-Airplane-mode-in-Pharo for keeping track of this

On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 1:02 AM, Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote: On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 6:35 AM, phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be> wrote:

...

This is not only when teaching.

I was at a conference today and showcased some Grafoscopio.

Spotty wifi and crowded bandwith makes it bad looking.

We need an "Airplane mode" switch.

That is a cool way to describe it. A well know paradigm. Its a setting that probably would change daya to day more than any other, so perhaps it would even be reasonable to have this as a permanent mode button on the background, or the task bar much like MS Windows taskbar status icons.

cheers -ben

...

Maybe can we have that available in the session from the settings.

Phil

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 10:55 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:

...

The problem is that there are people who give lectures in universities with bad internet (internet is bad in most of the universities I tried) and they done want freezes. On the other hand we have people who sit in their offices with fast machines, fast internet and they want features. Until now we were looking at how to satisfy one of the groups and which one exactly. Why not to try finding a solution for both. For example we can have the plugging enabled by default and have Spotter measuring the time needed to do a query. Whenever the time surpasses frustration limit (10 sec? I duno) Spotter will ask if the user wants to turn off the plugin, of turns it of automatically and tells where to re-enable it. The other way would be to have known plugins to appear at the bottom of Spotter, and a user can install/enable them with one click. So when you search but there is nothing you know that there are more plugins that may solve your problem.

Yes it is more complicated to implement in in a smart way rather them just set the default boolean value of a setting, but we spend too much time anyway convincing the other side that we are right…

Uko

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 21:30, stepharong <stepharong@free.fr> wrote:

One day I would like to invite you to give a lecture in a not that bad french university with a not that good network. Each time Pharo freezes you pay me 5 Euros only and we can go and pay some really expensive restaurant with your money. Simple on my machine it times out every five minutes.

<sorry I could not resist>

...

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 19:51, stepharong <stepharong@free.fr> wrote:

We should make it available from the catalog :)

Yes, it most certainly should be.

If only we could then tell user to type

Shift-Enter Sublimish Enter

to install it using Spotter right from the catalog ;-)

Sorry, I couldn't resist ... <ducking>

...

2017-03-06 9:29 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 09:22, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com> wrote:

2017-03-06 8:20 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:57, phil@highoctane.be wrote:

https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Issue-Validator-simple/7294/artifact... is not integrated for some Monkey reason anyway - still should b/c if you put sublimish, you need a decent matching Spotter.

Also, I see https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19796/Remove-duplicate-code-from-Sublimish... on 5/3. If this moves forward, why not the other one?

BTW Sublimish was an extra thing. Who got that in image?

I don’t know. It shouldn’t :)

What we should do is to create a page for themes and links to it (and they should be in catalog) :)

Well, it was me who proposed the slice and yes, I was aware of the fact that I should not do it because of code freeze (I was not aware of the two themes policy).

it is not a policy, it is just the idea I have :)

...

We can remove it again, I will prepare a slice.

problem with it is that is makes ripples. If community want it (is nice), we can include it, but I would wait for P7, yes.

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19801/Remove-SublimishTheme At least it was an advertisement for this theme that moved it forward and the integration of it helped to improve the dark theme too. And showed again how much we need the concept of palettes used strictly in the system.

-- Pavel

Esteban

...

-- Pavel

Esteban

...

Phil

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:43 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:17, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my use, but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter, and I like in general all this new additions.

By the way, even if I like it, I would not have integrated SublimishTheme. For same reason I didn’t integrated DarkMetalTheme: My idea is to have just two themes *in image*: one white, one dark, and allow people to install other themes from catalog.

Why? Because each class inside image becomes our responsibility and then a maintainability issue. With themes in particular already happened that existing themes became abandonware inside the image and we needed to clean up, not without problems.

cheers, Esteban

ps: which means also yes: that issue got integrated because I failed to control the flow of issues...

...

And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements so a good thing.

But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) frozen version?

Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. If I can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that use linux and mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits version.

There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example why Spotter does not shows search line.

Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that meant:

- some important changes in UFFI - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for Cairo (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that causes a callback problem).

I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in general deserves a lot of testing.

I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the train now), but in the mean time you can download all from here:

http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip (linux) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip (mac) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip (in case you need them)

cheers, Esteban

-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

This is not only when teaching.

I was at a conference today and showcased some Grafoscopio.

Spotty wifi and crowded bandwith makes it bad looking.

We need an "Airplane mode" switch.

Maybe can we have that available in the session from the settings.

:) I think that just having a setting and turning it on in the preferences is the way to go. Stef

Hi, In order to make Sublimish theme possible there are some important changes to gt morphic brick themer, spotter and probably other gt tools. Hardcoded color and style values were already considered as a serious issue and a bug. Imho, we should integrate at least fixes on GT side :) Thanks, Phil! Great job :) Alex On Mar 6, 2017 07:46, "Esteban Lorenzano" <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:17, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my use, but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter, and I like in general all this new additions.

By the way, even if I like it, I would not have integrated SublimishTheme. For same reason I didn’t integrated DarkMetalTheme: My idea is to have just two themes *in image*: one white, one dark, and allow people to install other themes from catalog.

Why? Because each class inside image becomes our responsibility and then a maintainability issue. With themes in particular already happened that existing themes became abandonware inside the image and we needed to clean up, not without problems.

cheers, Esteban

ps: which means also yes: that issue got integrated because I failed to control the flow of issues...

And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements so a good thing.

But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) frozen version?

Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. If I can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that use linux and mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits version.

There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example why Spotter does not shows search line.

Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that meant:

- some important changes in UFFI - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for Cairo (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that causes a callback problem).

I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in general deserves a lot of testing.

I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the train now), but in the mean time you can download all from here:

http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip (linux) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip (mac) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip (in case you need them)

cheers, Esteban

+1 Always true, always sad. But most changes for the good do something bad that is recognized after release. Norbert

Am 06.03.2017 um 08:24 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:

… and this is why even small additions should not be included in frozen versions… you never know how it will impact others… and suddenly you have a full chain of changes with unpredictable impacts.

Esteban

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 08:20, Aliaksei Syrel <alex.syrel@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

In order to make Sublimish theme possible there are some important changes to gt morphic brick themer, spotter and probably other gt tools. Hardcoded color and style values were already considered as a serious issue and a bug.

Imho, we should integrate at least fixes on GT side :)

Thanks, Phil! Great job :) Alex

...

On Mar 6, 2017 07:46, "Esteban Lorenzano" <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:17, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my use, but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter, and I like in general all this new additions.

By the way, even if I like it, I would not have integrated SublimishTheme. For same reason I didn’t integrated DarkMetalTheme: My idea is to have just two themes *in image*: one white, one dark, and allow people to install other themes from catalog.

Why? Because each class inside image becomes our responsibility and then a maintainability issue. With themes in particular already happened that existing themes became abandonware inside the image and we needed to clean up, not without problems.

cheers, Esteban

ps: which means also yes: that issue got integrated because I failed to control the flow of issues...

...

And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements so a good thing.

But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) frozen version?

Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. If I can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that use linux and mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits version.

There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example why Spotter does not shows search line.

Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that meant:

- some important changes in UFFI - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for Cairo (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that causes a callback problem).

I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in general deserves a lot of testing.

I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the train now), but in the mean time you can download all from here:

http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip (linux) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip (mac) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip (in case you need them)

cheers, Esteban

On 6 Mar 2017, at 17:04, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com> wrote:

2017-03-06 16:54 GMT+01:00 Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com <mailto:pavel.krivanek@gmail.com>>: I treid 64-bit Pharo on fresh (x)ubuntu and: - Zodiac (SSL) works - Roassal (Athens) work with a library path fix . LibGit can be loaded with some effort.

You're luckier than me.

Pharo 64bits segfaults on both Ubuntu 16.04 and 16.10.

… and the dumps? Esteban

Thierry

It looks very promising! Thank you!

Cheers, -- Pavel

2017-03-06 7:17 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>>: Hi,

First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my use, but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter, and I like in general all this new additions.

And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements so a good thing.

But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) frozen version?

Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. If I can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that use linux and mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits version.

There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example why Spotter does not shows search line.

Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that meant:

- some important changes in UFFI - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for Cairo (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that causes a callback problem).

I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in general deserves a lot of testing.

I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the train now), but in the mean time you can download all from here:

http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip <http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip <http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip> (linux) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip <http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip> (mac) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip <http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip> (in case you need them)

cheers, Esteban

which VM are you using? this: **PrimitiveFailure** findSubstring:in:startingAt:matchTable: indicates that you are not using a PharoVM… am I right? Esteban

On 6 Mar 2017, at 17:38, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com> wrote:

2017-03-06 17:20 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>>:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 17:04, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote:

2017-03-06 16:54 GMT+01:00 Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com <mailto:pavel.krivanek@gmail.com>>: I treid 64-bit Pharo on fresh (x)ubuntu and: - Zodiac (SSL) works - Roassal (Athens) work with a library path fix . LibGit can be loaded with some effort.

You're luckier than me.

Pharo 64bits segfaults on both Ubuntu 16.04 and 16.10.

… and the dumps?

Here it is. Can create it on-demand :(

I had no success compiling 64bits vms by myself. They crash/deadlock after that point, but they are not usable either.

Thierry

Esteban

...

Thierry

It looks very promising! Thank you!

Cheers, -- Pavel

2017-03-06 7:17 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>>: Hi,

First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my use, but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter, and I like in general all this new additions.

And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements so a good thing.

But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) frozen version?

Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. If I can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that use linux and mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits version.

There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example why Spotter does not shows search line.

Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that meant:

- some important changes in UFFI - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for Cairo (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that causes a callback problem).

I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in general deserves a lot of testing.

I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the train now), but in the mean time you can download all from here:

http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip <http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip <http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip> (linux) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip <http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip> (mac) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip <http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip> (in case you need them)

cheers, Esteban

<crash.dmp>

On 6 Mar 2017, at 19:43, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com> wrote:

Le 06/03/2017 à 18:43, Esteban Lorenzano a écrit :

...

which VM are you using?

this:

**PrimitiveFailure** findSubstring:in:startingAt:matchTable:

indicates that you are not using a PharoVM… am I right?

I'm using https://dl.bintray.com/estebanlm/pharo-vm/pharo-linux-x86_64threaded.d7cda15... <https://dl.bintray.com/estebanlm/pharo-vm/pharo-linux-x86_64threaded.d7cda15...>

old (very) good ones are here: http://files.pharo.org/vm/pharo-spur64/linux/ <http://files.pharo.org/vm/pharo-spur64/linux/> or here: https://dl.bintray.com/pharo-project/pharo-vm/ <https://dl.bintray.com/pharo-project/pharo-vm/> Esteban

Thierry

...

Esteban

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 17:38, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote:

2017-03-06 17:20 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>>:

...

On 6 Mar 2017, at 17:04, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote:

2017-03-06 16:54 GMT+01:00 Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com <mailto:pavel.krivanek@gmail.com>>:

I treid 64-bit Pharo on fresh (x)ubuntu and: - Zodiac (SSL) works - Roassal (Athens) work with a library path fix . LibGit can be loaded with some effort.

You're luckier than me.

Pharo 64bits segfaults on both Ubuntu 16.04 and 16.10.

… and the dumps?

Here it is. Can create it on-demand :(

I had no success compiling 64bits vms by myself. They crash/deadlock after that point, but they are not usable either.

Thierry

Esteban

...

Thierry

It looks very promising! Thank you!

Cheers, -- Pavel

2017-03-06 7:17 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>>:

Hi,

First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my use, but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter, and I like in general all this new additions.

And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements so a good thing.

But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) frozen version?

Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. If I can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that use linux and mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits version.

There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example why Spotter does not shows search line.

Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that meant:

- some important changes in UFFI - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for Cairo (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that causes a callback problem).

I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in general deserves a lot of testing.

I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the train now), but in the mean time you can download all from here:

http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip <http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip <http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip> (linux) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip <http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip> (mac) http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip <http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip> (in case you need them)

cheers, Esteban

<crash.dmp>