Re: [Pharo-dev] deployment components (was "The Dilemma: Building a Futuristic GUI for Ephestos")
Craig Latta wrote:
Right, there's no need for anyone to use UUIDs when referring to classes in Smalltalk expressions.
Yes, exactly this. We still use regular names for the classes - but for the tools they have a distinguishable ID. Best is to use a UUID for the ID as it is unique from the beginning. So if you create a class "Foo" and I create one both are unqique by ID - even when using the same name. The "rest" is implemeting tooling support. When you write "Foo" in a workspace then the workspace either already has a naming context to resolve the name (see [1] or could provide you with a selection if there is more than one. Internally you could bind to the right class by using the ID. I hate prefixing the classes as we now do, I want to name the classes "Instruction" not "IRInstruction" in Opal or "AJInstruction" in AsmJIT, especially since "IR" and "AJ" do not really tell you anything. Smalltalk names should be understandable. Additionally we should have meaningfull (and also unique) names also for namespaces. Also the current three/two letter prefixing of classes that is used in Squeak or Pharo only scales well for small communities... When there are things I like in Java then it is the fact to use reverse domains for namespaces. It is easy, understandable and I could also easily check if there is a web location. This way a namespace "org.apache.maven" gives you something meaningful, I can even visit http://maven.apache.org/. Allows the community to easily scale with thousands of classes without having clashes. Think of "org.pharo.asmjit.Instruction" vs "org.pharo.opal.Instruction" So you additionally need better and meaningful namespaces THAT SCALE AND ARE EASY TO UNDERSTAND combined with real packages (as objects, as Pharo already has). Then we also need ABIA (Around, beginner, inner, after messages), multiple method categories, selector namespaces, possibility for visibility (like private methods, see [2]), unified annotations for classes/methods/variables and a few other ingredients from my personal wishlist and it may shape a different new future... The interesting part is not to add all kind of stuff to Smalltalk - the interesting part is what is the most minimalistic system to allow for something extensible and still flexible (even within the meta-system) so that one can bootstrap things on top. Bye T. [1] http://vimeo.com/75391990 [2] http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~CamilleTeruel/PrivateMethods
In Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 10:16 AM, Torsten Bergmann <astares@gmx.de> wrote:
Craig Latta wrote:
Right, there's no need for anyone to use UUIDs when referring to classes in Smalltalk expressions.
Yes, exactly this. We still use regular names for the classes - but for the tools they have a distinguishable ID. Best is to use a UUID for the ID as it is unique from the beginning. So if you create a class "Foo" and I create one both are unqique by ID - even when using the same name.
The "rest" is implemeting tooling support. When you write "Foo" in a workspace then the workspace either already has a naming context to resolve the name (see [1] or could provide you with a selection if there is more than one. Internally you could bind to the right class by using the ID.
I hate prefixing the classes as we now do, I want to name the classes "Instruction" not "IRInstruction" in Opal or "AJInstruction" in AsmJIT, especially since "IR" and "AJ" do not really tell you anything. Smalltalk names should be understandable. Additionally we should have meaningfull (and also unique) names also for namespaces.
Also the current three/two letter prefixing of classes that is used in Squeak or Pharo only scales well for small communities...
When there are things I like in Java then it is the fact to use reverse domains for namespaces. It is easy, understandable and I could also easily check if there is a web location.
This way a namespace "org.apache.maven" gives you something meaningful, I can even visit http://maven.apache.org/. Allows the community to easily scale with thousands of classes without having clashes.
Think of "org.pharo.asmjit.Instruction" vs "org.pharo.opal.Instruction"
So you additionally need better and meaningful namespaces THAT SCALE AND ARE EASY TO UNDERSTAND combined with real packages (as objects, as Pharo already has).
Actually, I am fine with the prefixes. Objective-C also works like that and well, it hasn't exactly hampered its community to scale. I have done my share of Java and yeah, sure, there are a lot of enterprise grade things in there. So many that actual development and delivery usually slows down to a crawl with lots of Java priests who confuse delivery of business value with technical show off. Also, we can rewrite prefixes pretty easily with the tooling.
Then we also need ABIA (Around, beginner, inner, after messages), multiple method categories, selector namespaces, possibility for visibility (like private methods, see [2]), unified annotations for classes/methods/variables and a few other ingredients from my personal wishlist and it may shape a different new future...
The interesting part is not to add all kind of stuff to Smalltalk - the
interesting part is what is the most minimalistic system to allow for something extensible and still flexible (even within the meta-system) so that one can bootstrap things on top.
Bye
T.
[1] http://vimeo.com/75391990 [2] http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~CamilleTeruel/PrivateMethods
Hi--
Actually, I am fine with the prefixes. Objective-C also works like that and well, it hasn't exactly hampered its community to scale.
I think Objective-C might have had one or two other forces behind it to compensate. :)
I have done my share of Java and yeah, sure, there are a lot of enterprise grade things in there. So many that actual development and delivery usually slows down to a crawl with lots of Java priests who confuse delivery of business value with technical show off.
For me this stuff isn't about being "enterprise-grade" or even particularly sophisticated. It's rudimentary, like bothering to remember where your car is parked. The lack of it is something that causes potential participants I meet to stop listening, especially given the power of the system in general. It's a strange discontinuity. -C -- Craig Latta netjam.org +31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok) + 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS)
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 4:32 PM, Craig Latta <craig@netjam.org> wrote:
Hi--
Actually, I am fine with the prefixes. Objective-C also works like that and well, it hasn't exactly hampered its community to scale.
I think Objective-C might have had one or two other forces behind it to compensate. :)
Sure. But not when it was at NeXT.
I have done my share of Java and yeah, sure, there are a lot of enterprise grade things in there. So many that actual development and delivery usually slows down to a crawl with lots of Java priests who confuse delivery of business value with technical show off.
For me this stuff isn't about being "enterprise-grade" or even particularly sophisticated. It's rudimentary, like bothering to remember where your car is parked. The lack of it is something that causes potential participants I meet to stop listening, especially given the power of the system in general. It's a strange discontinuity.
Looks like this thing as been discusses ad libitum in the past... I actually like this one: http://swiki.krampe.se/gohu/32 Looks like no nonsense and not forcing anything down people throats. Phil
-C
-- Craig Latta netjam.org +31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok) + 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS)
I seriously dislike the absence of namespaces in Squeak/Pharo and I hate weird prefixes in front of class names. I am not a fan of using a column but I would like to have something like Pharo Morphic Dialog open. instead of Pharo.Morphic.Dialog open but this second choice is even better than no namespaces at all, definitely preferable to MorphDialog open. The more Pharo grows will end up looking worse than Java. On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 5:51 PM, phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be> wrote:
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 4:32 PM, Craig Latta <craig@netjam.org> wrote:
Hi--
Actually, I am fine with the prefixes. Objective-C also works like that and well, it hasn't exactly hampered its community to scale.
I think Objective-C might have had one or two other forces behind it to compensate. :)
Sure. But not when it was at NeXT.
I have done my share of Java and yeah, sure, there are a lot of enterprise grade things in there. So many that actual development and delivery usually slows down to a crawl with lots of Java priests who confuse delivery of business value with technical show off.
For me this stuff isn't about being "enterprise-grade" or even particularly sophisticated. It's rudimentary, like bothering to remember where your car is parked. The lack of it is something that causes potential participants I meet to stop listening, especially given the power of the system in general. It's a strange discontinuity.
Looks like this thing as been discusses ad libitum in the past...
I actually like this one: http://swiki.krampe.se/gohu/32
Looks like no nonsense and not forcing anything down people throats.
Phil
-C
-- Craig Latta netjam.org +31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok) + 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS)
Actually, I am fine with the prefixes. Objective-C also works like that and well, it hasn't exactly hampered its community to scale.
I think Objective-C might have had one or two other forces behind it to compensate. :)
Sure. But not when it was at NeXT.
Eh? Sure it did: Steve Jobs and his team, the same force behind NeXT's reverse takeover of Apple. -C -- Craig Latta netjam.org +31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok) + 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS)
On 24 September 2014 09:16, Torsten Bergmann <astares@gmx.de> wrote:
Craig Latta wrote:
Right, there's no need for anyone to use UUIDs when referring to classes in Smalltalk expressions.
Yes, exactly this. We still use regular names for the classes - but for the tools they have a distinguishable ID. Best is to use a UUID for the ID as it is unique from the beginning. So if you create a class "Foo" and I create one both are unqique by ID - even when using the same name.
The problem I have with UUIDs is that, in a distributed setting, you need to rely on everyone to generate UUIDs correctly. Now IF everyone implements UUID generation correctly, and IF everyone plays the game in good faith, you will almost certainly not get a UUID clash. But when you say your code depends on package/class/object/method with guid SOME_GUID, and I as a bad actor inject my own class with guid SOME_GUID, how are you to know that you've just been 0wned? Wouldn't it be better, instead of using a key-value store (key K maps to value V), we have a store that uses function_of(V) maps to value V? Like in git: a commit is uniquely identified by its hash and, because the hash is a checksum, you can't - short of engineering a SHA-1 collision (good luck with that) - forge part of the system.
The "rest" is implemeting tooling support. When you write "Foo" in a workspace then the workspace either already has a naming context to resolve the name (see [1] or could provide you with a selection if there is more than one. Internally you could bind to the right class by using the ID.
Yes, that "rest" is most of the work. But you know this because of the scare quotes :)
I hate prefixing the classes as we now do, I want to name the classes "Instruction" not "IRInstruction" in Opal or "AJInstruction" in AsmJIT, especially since "IR" and "AJ" do not really tell you anything. Smalltalk names should be understandable. Additionally we should have meaningfull (and also unique) names also for namespaces.
Also the current three/two letter prefixing of classes that is used in Squeak or Pharo only scales well for small communities...
When there are things I like in Java then it is the fact to use reverse domains for namespaces. It is easy, understandable and I could also easily check if there is a web location.
This way a namespace "org.apache.maven" gives you something meaningful, I can even visit http://maven.apache.org/. Allows the community to easily scale with thousands of classes without having clashes.
Think of "org.pharo.asmjit.Instruction" vs "org.pharo.opal.Instruction"
So you additionally need better and meaningful namespaces THAT SCALE AND ARE EASY TO UNDERSTAND combined with real packages (as objects, as Pharo already has).
We already have this, or the basis at least, in Squeak in the form of Environments.
Then we also need ABIA (Around, beginner, inner, after messages), multiple method categories, selector namespaces, possibility for visibility (like private methods, see [2]), unified annotations for classes/methods/variables and a few other ingredients from my personal wishlist and it may shape a different new future...
Squeak hasn't done this yet, but it should be possible to use Environments to implement selector namespaces. We haven't done it yet because Colin Putney's been really busy lately, and no one else has had the time/energy to Just Do It. And if you have selector namespaces, you have private methods, don't you? frank
The interesting part is not to add all kind of stuff to Smalltalk - the interesting part is what is the most minimalistic system to allow for something extensible and still flexible (even within the meta-system) so that one can bootstrap things on top.
Bye T.
[1] http://vimeo.com/75391990 [2] http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~CamilleTeruel/PrivateMethods
Hi Frank-- I wrote:
Right, there's no need for anyone to use UUIDs when referring to classes in Smalltalk expressions.
Torsten responded:
Yes, exactly this. We still use regular names for the classes - but for the tools they have a distinguishable ID. Best is to use a UUID for the ID as it is unique from the beginning. So if you create a class "Foo" and I create one both are unqique by ID - even when using the same name.
You responded to Torsten:
The problem I have with UUIDs is that...
Hooray! Discussion! :)
...in a distributed setting, you need to rely on everyone to generate UUIDs correctly. Now IF everyone implements UUID generation correctly...
This is not hard, if there are common implementations at the Smalltalk level (like we have common collection classes), or at the virtual machine level (like we have common plugins).
...and IF everyone plays the game in good faith...
Whoa, if you're going to invoke that concern, then I wonder how you can tolerate what we've already been doing. Namely: - Compiling source code with no way to trust its authorship. - Compiling source code with no way to trust that the code does what the authors say it does (trusting authorship would help somewhat). - Compiling source code with no way to trust that the target compilation environment is sufficiently like the one in which the source code was developed.
...you will almost certainly not get a UUID clash. But when you say your code depends on package/class/object/method with guid SOME_GUID, and I as a bad actor inject my own class with guid SOME_GUID, how are you to know that you've just been 0wned?
Again, how would you know today that the filein or Monticello package you just loaded has 0wned you? When would you know? What would you do about it? I think we have to concede that a motivated insider will always be able to do bad things for a while before being caught, probably involving social mechanisms. I'm interested in how to minimize this time, and how to undo the bad things. With the Naiad module system, I want to identify, as soon as possible, the human interactions required to establish trust, and facilitate them. Naiad modules are synchronized live between systems (without recompiling source code; only authors compile source code). You could know you're likely to be 0nwed if you proceed with a module synchronization because the cryptographic signature of a module is incorrect for its purported authors. It would be similar to knowing that the PGP-signed message you just read isn't really from the person whose key you verified earlier.
Wouldn't it be better, instead of using a key-value store (key K maps to value V), we have a store that uses function_of(V) maps to value V? Like in git: a commit is uniquely identified by its hash and, because the hash is a checksum, you can't - short of engineering a SHA-1 collision (good luck with that) - forge part of the system.
The things we want to identify have state that changes over time; their hashes would also change over time. This is fine for things like a module signature during a synchronization conversation (in fact, I'd like to leverage the actual existing public-key cryptography infrastructure for Naiad). It's inappropriate for referring to a changing class over the course of years. UUIDs are a straightforward and well-known way of generating IDs for things which change. Anyway, there it is, both UUIDs and hashing are involved. -C -- Craig Latta netjam.org +31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok) + 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS)
Hi Torsten--
The interesting part is not to add all kind of stuff to Smalltalk - the interesting part is what is the most minimalistic system to allow for something extensible and still flexible (even within the meta-system) so that one can bootstrap things on top.
Yes, that's my interest precisely. -C -- Craig Latta netjam.org +31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok) + 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS)
Hi Torsten, On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 1:16 AM, Torsten Bergmann <astares@gmx.de> wrote:
Craig Latta wrote:
Right, there's no need for anyone to use UUIDs when referring to classes in Smalltalk expressions.
Yes, exactly this. We still use regular names for the classes - but for the tools they have a distinguishable ID. Best is to use a UUID for the ID as it is unique from the beginning. So if you create a class "Foo" and I create one both are unqique by ID - even when using the same name.
But this doesn't cope with the fact that I can take a copy of your class, modify my copy by adding or changing a method, etc, and hence derive two different versions of the class with the same UUID. If a class is defined by what it is (its methods, instance variables, superclass, etc) then it doesn't need a UUID. Its own form uniquely (and reliably) identifies it. If you use UUIDs then is the UUID modified every time some modification is made to it? The "rest" is implemeting tooling support. When you write "Foo" in a
workspace then the workspace either already has a naming context to resolve the name (see [1] or could provide you with a selection if there is more than one. Internally you could bind to the right class by using the ID.
That's what namespaces do.
I hate prefixing the classes as we now do, I want to name the classes "Instruction" not "IRInstruction" in Opal or "AJInstruction" in AsmJIT, especially since "IR" and "AJ" do not really tell you anything. Smalltalk names should be understandable. Additionally we should have meaningfull (and also unique) names also for namespaces.
Agreed. Also the current three/two letter prefixing of classes that is used in
Squeak or Pharo only scales well for small communities...
It's horrible. Crappy. But we're in the process of transitioning to namespaces and that will change things.
When there are things I like in Java then it is the fact to use reverse domains for namespaces. It is easy, understandable and I could also easily check if there is a web location.
This way a namespace "org.apache.maven" gives you something meaningful, I can even visit http://maven.apache.org/. Allows the community to easily scale with thousands of classes without having clashes.
Think of "org.pharo.asmjit.Instruction" vs "org.pharo.opal.Instruction"
You should read the Newspeak stuff on namepsaces. This explicit wiring is horrible. It doesn't allow us to mix and match as we want to.
So you additionally need better and meaningful namespaces THAT SCALE AND ARE EASY TO UNDERSTAND combined with real packages (as objects, as Pharo already has).
+1. Then we also need ABIA (Around, beginner, inner, after messages), I don't see what this has to do with distribution and you haven't given any rationale for it. For me super is enough. One can synthesize all the others using it (except I guess inner; can you give me an example of inner?). In any case one can synthesise code via editing without needing new VM machinery. So I'm most dubious about this. I *do* recall discussing and sketching with David Leibs something of this flavour for loading packages. For example deploying some Smalltalk component/service might require modification of some core method, e.g. add/remove dependents, and that the edit would be better expressed as a pattern where the existing method is filled out in an element of a template of the replacement to be loaded. This is to do with being able to define finer-grained overrides, and have them removed after. IMO this is more general, powerful and easier to manage than using new VM machinery.
multiple method categories,
What's the rationale here? Arguably we have this now but there are bugs in ClassOrganizer and the tools. But it is something you could write tests for and fix now. But it seems kind of trivial and beside the point of deployment. Can you explain why it is important?
selector namespaces, possibility for visibility (like private methods, see [2]),
agreed. These, at least in theory, are a very nice way of insulating extensions.
unified annotations for classes/methods/variables and a few other ingredients from my personal wishlist and it may shape a different new future...
Annotations indeed. But I think first-class slots are more important no? And the Pharo folks have a working system which we can use.
The interesting part is not to add all kind of stuff to Smalltalk - the interesting part is what is the most minimalistic system to allow for something extensible and still flexible (even within the meta-system) so that one can bootstrap things on top.
Right. So ABIA seems over the top. What does one *really* need? You talk of "my personal wishlist" and at the same time of "the most minimalistic system". This reads to me as "my personal grab bag" and "the most minimalistic system". Decide :-).
Bye T.
[1] http://vimeo.com/75391990 [2] http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~CamilleTeruel/PrivateMethods
-- best, Eliot
participants (6)
-
Craig Latta -
Eliot Miranda -
Frank Shearar -
kilon alios -
phil＠highoctane.be -
Torsten Bergmann