[Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
Hi Folks, I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a bit confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. I thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave me a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, not packages). I cannot even see any more how to switch between the two. Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.) - on
Hi oscar Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support: - dual browser - class extensions - traits - refactoring - icons Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear what colin will integrate or not. Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have - dual browser - class extensions - traits - icons So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best of the worlds. Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful browser is important and right now if the browser does not support trait then we should remove traits from the image. Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and other package related functionality. Stef On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote:
Hi Folks,
I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a bit confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. I thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave me a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, not packages). I cannot even see any more how to switch between the two.
Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.)
- on
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Stef, Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded? Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:30 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo? Hi oscar Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support: - dual browser - class extensions - traits - refactoring - icons Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear what colin will integrate or not. Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have - dual browser - class extensions - traits - icons So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best of the worlds. Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful browser is important and right now if the browser does not support trait then we should remove traits from the image. Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and other package related functionality. Stef On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote:
Hi Folks,
I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a bit confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. I thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave me a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, not packages). I cannot even see any more how to switch between the two.
Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.)
- on
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"Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support:..." Notice the "ideally" and the "would" haha On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>wrote:
Stef,
Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded?
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:30 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
Hi oscar
Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support: - dual browser - class extensions - traits - refactoring - icons
Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear what colin will integrate or not. Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have - dual browser - class extensions - traits - icons So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best of the worlds. Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful browser is important and right now if the browser does not support trait then we should remove traits from the image. Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and other package related functionality. Stef
On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote:
Hi Folks,
I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a bit confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. I thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave me a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, not packages). I cannot even see any more how to switch between the two.
Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.)
- on
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_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
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Stef, Understood, but since you appear to be leaving open things that I consider to be drastic (removing traits), it only seems reasonable to try the faster browser on some slower machines to see what impact it makes. It would not take too much prodding for me to be able to give some guidance along the lines of "not enough impact to be of help" or "well worth adopting." _Something_ is eating up a lot of clock cycles at present. Bill ________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:25 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo? "Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support:..." Notice the "ideally" and the "would" haha On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu<mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>> wrote: Stef, Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded? Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr> [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr>] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:30 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo? Hi oscar Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support: - dual browser - class extensions - traits - refactoring - icons Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear what colin will integrate or not. Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have - dual browser - class extensions - traits - icons So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best of the worlds. Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful browser is important and right now if the browser does not support trait then we should remove traits from the image. Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and other package related functionality. Stef On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote:
Hi Folks,
I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a bit confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. I thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave me a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, not packages). I cannot even see any more how to switch between the two.
Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.)
- on
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_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Hi Bill, Performance is certainly important. Please don't stop bugging us to make progress at this front too ;) What we should start with is to identify which features makes it slow. I recently posted basic benchmarks [1], but we need to identify single features so that we know where to optimize or which features should better be disabled. What would help is if you could tell us what exactly is slow (at the moment I'm mainly working in the core image without freetype fonts and speed feels ok on my MacBook Pro). Cheers, Adrian [1] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2009-June/009905.html On Jul 3, 2009, at 00:29 , Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Stef,
Understood, but since you appear to be leaving open things that I consider to be drastic (removing traits), it only seems reasonable to try the faster browser on some slower machines to see what impact it makes. It would not take too much prodding for me to be able to give some guidance along the lines of "not enough impact to be of help" or "well worth adopting." _Something_ is eating up a lot of clock cycles at present.
Bill
________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:25 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
"Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support:..."
Notice the "ideally" and the "would" haha
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu <mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>> wrote: Stef,
Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded?
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr
[mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:30 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
Hi oscar
Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support: - dual browser - class extensions - traits - refactoring - icons
Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear what colin will integrate or not. Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have - dual browser - class extensions - traits - icons So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best of the worlds. Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful browser is important and right now if the browser does not support trait then we should remove traits from the image. Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and other package related functionality. Stef
On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote:
Hi Folks,
I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a bit confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. I thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave me a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, not packages). I cannot even see any more how to switch between the two.
Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.)
- on
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yes yes yes! Stef On Jul 3, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Adrian Lienhard wrote:
Hi Bill,
Performance is certainly important. Please don't stop bugging us to make progress at this front too ;)
What we should start with is to identify which features makes it slow.
I recently posted basic benchmarks [1], but we need to identify single features so that we know where to optimize or which features should better be disabled.
What would help is if you could tell us what exactly is slow (at the moment I'm mainly working in the core image without freetype fonts and speed feels ok on my MacBook Pro).
Cheers, Adrian
[1] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2009-June/009905.html
On Jul 3, 2009, at 00:29 , Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Stef,
Understood, but since you appear to be leaving open things that I consider to be drastic (removing traits), it only seems reasonable to try the faster browser on some slower machines to see what impact it makes. It would not take too much prodding for me to be able to give some guidance along the lines of "not enough impact to be of help" or "well worth adopting." _Something_ is eating up a lot of clock cycles at present.
Bill
________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:25 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
"Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support:..."
Notice the "ideally" and the "would" haha
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu <mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>> wrote: Stef,
Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded?
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr
[mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:30 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
Hi oscar
Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support: - dual browser - class extensions - traits - refactoring - icons
Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear what colin will integrate or not. Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have - dual browser - class extensions - traits - icons So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best of the worlds. Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful browser is important and right now if the browser does not support trait then we should remove traits from the image. Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and other package related functionality. Stef
On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote:
Hi Folks,
I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a bit confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. I thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave me a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, not packages). I cannot even see any more how to switch between the two.
Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.)
- on
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http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
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Adrian, I share Stef's enthusiasm for your suggested process. Thanks for taking my prods about speed in the constructive spirit in which they are intended. One concern though: is the benchmark of opening and closing browsers able to give a realistic comparison of performance? Time to open a debugger is probably worth noting, but the things that concern me most with the browsers are poor response to keyboard input, time delays selecting a new class or method, and (most notably) time required to recompile a class; changing the category can take several seconds in my experience. Re keyboard input, I suspect characters are being lost; in fairness, that is difficult to test, because it requires typing quickly and accurately. Still, Pharo strikes me as just not being able to keep up, and it's worse with the package browser. You are of course correct to keep free type and Shout on the list of suspects, though I must say that Shout has always struck me as eerily fast. In short, I do not dispute that the difference is speed is small, especially for the open/close that is benchmarked. However, there is simply no "extra speed" to waste. Ideally, benchmarks should compare the different browsers with and without shout and free type, rounded corners, etc., and should separate selecting a new class and method. Some of my trouble might stem from using Linux for much of my work. I cannot describe the extent of my frustration with Windows - I've had it and then some. I'll stop the rant there (yes, I could go on for a while yet<g>). However, I cannot in good conscience join the "Linux is faster than Windows" crowd, and I am willing to consider the possibility that the display handling in the linux vm (no accusations, just in the interest of intellectual honesty) might have room for improvement, and/or the design of X-windows might not help. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:48 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo? yes yes yes! Stef On Jul 3, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Adrian Lienhard wrote:
Hi Bill,
Performance is certainly important. Please don't stop bugging us to make progress at this front too ;)
What we should start with is to identify which features makes it slow.
I recently posted basic benchmarks [1], but we need to identify single features so that we know where to optimize or which features should better be disabled.
What would help is if you could tell us what exactly is slow (at the moment I'm mainly working in the core image without freetype fonts and speed feels ok on my MacBook Pro).
Cheers,
Adrian
[1] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2009-June/009905. html
On Jul 3, 2009, at 00:29 , Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Stef,
Understood, but since you appear to be leaving open things that I consider to be drastic (removing traits), it only seems reasonable to try the faster browser on some slower machines to see what impact it makes. It would not take too much prodding for me to be able to give some guidance along the lines of "not enough impact to be of help" or "well worth adopting." _Something_ is eating up a lot of clock cycles at present.
Bill
________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:25 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
"Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support:..."
Notice the "ideally" and the "would" haha
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu <mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>> wrote: Stef,
Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded?
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project-boun ces@lists.gforge.inria.fr
[mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-pro ject-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:30 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge .inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
Hi oscar
Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support: - dual browser - class extensions - traits - refactoring - icons
Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear what colin will integrate or not. Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have - dual browser - class extensions - traits - icons So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best of the worlds. Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful browser is important and right now if the browser does not support trait then we should remove traits from the image. Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and other package related functionality. Stef
On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote:
Hi Folks,
I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a bit confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. I thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave me a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, not packages). I cannot even see any more how to switch between the two.
Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.)
- on
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On 4-Jul-09, at 12:08 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Adrian,
I share Stef's enthusiasm for your suggested process. Thanks for taking my prods about speed in the constructive spirit in which they are intended.
One concern though: is the benchmark of opening and closing browsers able to give a realistic comparison of performance? Time to open a debugger is probably worth noting, but the things that concern me most with the browsers are poor response to keyboard input, time delays selecting a new class or method, and (most notably) time required to recompile a class; changing the category can take several seconds in my experience.
I should note that in testing with a limited memory VM say 40MB it seemed that every other time I opened a browser window it would toss a memory failure walkback. So I'd suggest althought time is important, has any one looked at how much memory is required to do the process? This allocation seemed temporary btw. -- = = = ======================================================================== John M. McIntosh <johnmci@smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: squeaker68882 Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com = = = ========================================================================
Hi Bill, David and Alex made couple of speed improvements in OmniBrowser during yesterday's sprint. I will let them detail on what they achieved so far. Summarizing your mail below, the following are the most important actions to optimize: - response to keyboard input - time delays selecting a new class or method - time required to recompile a class - changing the category (class or method?) Anybody interested to do benchmarks of these actions (e.g., comparing Pharo to Pharo-core)? Cheers, Adrian On Jul 4, 2009, at 21:08 , Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Adrian,
I share Stef's enthusiasm for your suggested process. Thanks for taking my prods about speed in the constructive spirit in which they are intended.
One concern though: is the benchmark of opening and closing browsers able to give a realistic comparison of performance? Time to open a debugger is probably worth noting, but the things that concern me most with the browsers are poor response to keyboard input, time delays selecting a new class or method, and (most notably) time required to recompile a class; changing the category can take several seconds in my experience.
Re keyboard input, I suspect characters are being lost; in fairness, that is difficult to test, because it requires typing quickly and accurately. Still, Pharo strikes me as just not being able to keep up, and it's worse with the package browser. You are of course correct to keep free type and Shout on the list of suspects, though I must say that Shout has always struck me as eerily fast.
In short, I do not dispute that the difference is speed is small, especially for the open/close that is benchmarked. However, there is simply no "extra speed" to waste. Ideally, benchmarks should compare the different browsers with and without shout and free type, rounded corners, etc., and should separate selecting a new class and method.
Some of my trouble might stem from using Linux for much of my work. I cannot describe the extent of my frustration with Windows - I've had it and then some. I'll stop the rant there (yes, I could go on for a while yet<g>). However, I cannot in good conscience join the "Linux is faster than Windows" crowd, and I am willing to consider the possibility that the display handling in the linux vm (no accusations, just in the interest of intellectual honesty) might have room for improvement, and/or the design of X-windows might not help.
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:48 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
yes yes yes!
Stef On Jul 3, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Adrian Lienhard wrote:
Hi Bill,
Performance is certainly important. Please don't stop bugging us to make progress at this front too ;)
What we should start with is to identify which features makes it slow.
I recently posted basic benchmarks [1], but we need to identify single features so that we know where to optimize or which features should better be disabled.
What would help is if you could tell us what exactly is slow (at the moment I'm mainly working in the core image without freetype fonts and speed feels ok on my MacBook Pro).
Cheers,
Adrian
[1] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2009-June/ 009905. html
On Jul 3, 2009, at 00:29 , Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Stef,
Understood, but since you appear to be leaving open things that I consider to be drastic (removing traits), it only seems reasonable to try the faster browser on some slower machines to see what impact it makes. It would not take too much prodding for me to be able to give some guidance along the lines of "not enough impact to be of help" or "well worth adopting." _Something_ is eating up a lot of clock cycles at present.
Bill
________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:25 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
"Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support:..."
Notice the "ideally" and the "would" haha
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu <mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>> wrote: Stef,
Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded?
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project- boun ces@lists.gforge.inria.fr
[mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo- pro ject-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:30 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo- project@lists.gforge .inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
Hi oscar
Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support: - dual browser - class extensions - traits - refactoring - icons
Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear what colin will integrate or not. Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have - dual browser - class extensions - traits - icons So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best of the worlds. Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful browser is important and right now if the browser does not support trait then we should remove traits from the image. Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and other package related functionality. Stef
On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote:
Hi Folks,
I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a bit confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. I thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave me a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, not packages). I cannot even see any more how to switch between the two.
Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.)
- on
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Adrian, That's a pretty good summary of the details I listed. Perhaps more important, I am suggesting that we create benchmarks of a typical number of open browsers' response to normal use. We should probably also parameterize the theme in use and the options (Shout, free type, rounded corners, etc.) that are enabled, to allow us to compare the effects of the "luxury" items. Ideally, the benchmark would run all of the combinations and leave behind a text file identifying the also the contributor and their description of the machine, allowing us to see what clobers us on which OS+hardware. The category change I had in mind was of a class, in particular, suppose I have packages SpellingErrors-Stupid and SpellingErrors-ReelyStupid, and want to change the second one<g>; OB really ground to a crawl on things like that. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Adrian Lienhard Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 6:32 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo? Hi Bill, David and Alex made couple of speed improvements in OmniBrowser during yesterday's sprint. I will let them detail on what they achieved so far. Summarizing your mail below, the following are the most important actions to optimize: - response to keyboard input - time delays selecting a new class or method - time required to recompile a class - changing the category (class or method?) Anybody interested to do benchmarks of these actions (e.g., comparing Pharo to Pharo-core)? Cheers, Adrian On Jul 4, 2009, at 21:08 , Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Adrian,
I share Stef's enthusiasm for your suggested process. Thanks for taking my prods about speed in the constructive spirit in which they are intended.
One concern though: is the benchmark of opening and closing browsers able to give a realistic comparison of performance? Time to open a debugger is probably worth noting, but the things that concern me most with the browsers are poor response to keyboard input, time delays selecting a new class or method, and (most notably) time required to recompile a class; changing the category can take several seconds in my experience.
Re keyboard input, I suspect characters are being lost; in fairness, that is difficult to test, because it requires typing quickly and accurately. Still, Pharo strikes me as just not being able to keep up, and it's worse with the package browser. You are of course correct to keep free type and Shout on the list of suspects, though I must say that Shout has always struck me as eerily fast.
In short, I do not dispute that the difference is speed is small, especially for the open/close that is benchmarked. However, there is simply no "extra speed" to waste. Ideally, benchmarks should compare the different browsers with and without shout and free type, rounded corners, etc., and should separate selecting a new class and method.
Some of my trouble might stem from using Linux for much of my work. I cannot describe the extent of my frustration with Windows - I've had it and then some. I'll stop the rant there (yes, I could go on for a while yet<g>). However, I cannot in good conscience join the "Linux is faster than Windows" crowd, and I am willing to consider the possibility that the display handling in the linux vm (no accusations, just in the interest of intellectual honesty) might have room for improvement, and/or the design of X-windows might not help.
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:48 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
yes yes yes!
Stef On Jul 3, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Adrian Lienhard wrote:
Hi Bill,
Performance is certainly important. Please don't stop bugging us to make progress at this front too ;)
What we should start with is to identify which features makes it slow.
I recently posted basic benchmarks [1], but we need to identify single features so that we know where to optimize or which features should better be disabled.
What would help is if you could tell us what exactly is slow (at the moment I'm mainly working in the core image without freetype fonts and speed feels ok on my MacBook Pro).
Cheers,
Adrian
[1] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2009-June/ 009905. html
On Jul 3, 2009, at 00:29 , Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Stef,
Understood, but since you appear to be leaving open things that I consider to be drastic (removing traits), it only seems reasonable to try the faster browser on some slower machines to see what impact it makes. It would not take too much prodding for me to be able to give some guidance along the lines of "not enough impact to be of help" or "well worth adopting." _Something_ is eating up a lot of clock cycles at present.
Bill
________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:25 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
"Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support:..."
Notice the "ideally" and the "would" haha
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu <mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>> wrote: Stef,
Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded?
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project- boun ces@lists.gforge.inria.fr
[mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo- pro ject-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:30 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo- project@lists.gforge .inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
Hi oscar
Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support: - dual browser - class extensions - traits - refactoring - icons
Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear what colin will integrate or not. Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have - dual browser - class extensions - traits - icons So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best of the worlds. Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful browser is important and right now if the browser does not support trait then we should remove traits from the image. Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and other package related functionality. Stef
On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote:
Hi Folks,
I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a bit confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. I thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave me a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, not packages). I cannot even see any more how to switch between the two.
Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.)
- on
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David and Alex made couple of speed improvements in OmniBrowser during yesterday's sprint. I will let them detail on what they achieved so far.
We did some benchmark and apparently there was some redundancy when updating. We also reduced the button at the top of the browser, apparently few people actually used them, and they consumed time to refresh. One of the result of this experiment, is that profiling tools in Squeak/Pharo are of a poor quality. There is definitely rooms for improvements, but this is getting complex. Cheers, Alexandre
On Jul 4, 2009, at 21:08 , Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Adrian,
I share Stef's enthusiasm for your suggested process. Thanks for taking my prods about speed in the constructive spirit in which they are intended.
One concern though: is the benchmark of opening and closing browsers able to give a realistic comparison of performance? Time to open a debugger is probably worth noting, but the things that concern me most with the browsers are poor response to keyboard input, time delays selecting a new class or method, and (most notably) time required to recompile a class; changing the category can take several seconds in my experience.
Re keyboard input, I suspect characters are being lost; in fairness, that is difficult to test, because it requires typing quickly and accurately. Still, Pharo strikes me as just not being able to keep up, and it's worse with the package browser. You are of course correct to keep free type and Shout on the list of suspects, though I must say that Shout has always struck me as eerily fast.
In short, I do not dispute that the difference is speed is small, especially for the open/close that is benchmarked. However, there is simply no "extra speed" to waste. Ideally, benchmarks should compare the different browsers with and without shout and free type, rounded corners, etc., and should separate selecting a new class and method.
Some of my trouble might stem from using Linux for much of my work. I cannot describe the extent of my frustration with Windows - I've had it and then some. I'll stop the rant there (yes, I could go on for a while yet<g>). However, I cannot in good conscience join the "Linux is faster than Windows" crowd, and I am willing to consider the possibility that the display handling in the linux vm (no accusations, just in the interest of intellectual honesty) might have room for improvement, and/or the design of X-windows might not help.
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:48 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
yes yes yes!
Stef On Jul 3, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Adrian Lienhard wrote:
Hi Bill,
Performance is certainly important. Please don't stop bugging us to make progress at this front too ;)
What we should start with is to identify which features makes it slow.
I recently posted basic benchmarks [1], but we need to identify single features so that we know where to optimize or which features should better be disabled.
What would help is if you could tell us what exactly is slow (at the moment I'm mainly working in the core image without freetype fonts and speed feels ok on my MacBook Pro).
Cheers,
Adrian
[1] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2009-June/ 009905. html
On Jul 3, 2009, at 00:29 , Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Stef,
Understood, but since you appear to be leaving open things that I consider to be drastic (removing traits), it only seems reasonable to try the faster browser on some slower machines to see what impact it makes. It would not take too much prodding for me to be able to give some guidance along the lines of "not enough impact to be of help" or "well worth adopting." _Something_ is eating up a lot of clock cycles at present.
Bill
________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:25 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
"Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support:..."
Notice the "ideally" and the "would" haha
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu <mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>> wrote: Stef,
Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded?
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project- boun ces@lists.gforge.inria.fr
[mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo- pro ject-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:30 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo- project@lists.gforge .inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
Hi oscar
Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support: - dual browser - class extensions - traits - refactoring - icons
Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear what colin will integrate or not. Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have - dual browser - class extensions - traits - icons So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best of the worlds. Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful browser is important and right now if the browser does not support trait then we should remove traits from the image. Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and other package related functionality. Stef
On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote:
Hi Folks,
I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a bit confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. I thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave me a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, not packages). I cannot even see any more how to switch between the two.
Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.)
- on
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-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
Choose OB but not the version with package when you change from system browser to other by clicking ong the left top bottom of a window Stef On Jul 2, 2009, at 11:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Stef,
Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded?
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:30 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
Hi oscar
Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support: - dual browser - class extensions - traits - refactoring - icons
Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear what colin will integrate or not. Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have - dual browser - class extensions - traits - icons So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best of the worlds. Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful browser is important and right now if the browser does not support trait then we should remove traits from the image. Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and other package related functionality. Stef
On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote:
Hi Folks,
I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a bit confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. I thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave me a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, not packages). I cannot even see any more how to switch between the two.
Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.)
- on
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Stef, My initial reaction is to strongly suggest doing something to get the additional speed offered by the choice below, but I need to either get some hard data by profiling some typical operations, or at least work with it under real conditions. I am curious what others who have found Pharo to be sluggish find with it. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:45 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo? Choose OB but not the version with package when you change from system browser to other by clicking ong the left top bottom of a window Stef On Jul 2, 2009, at 11:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Stef,
Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded?
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:30 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
Hi oscar
Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support: - dual browser - class extensions - traits - refactoring - icons
Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear what colin will integrate or not. Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have - dual browser - class extensions - traits - icons So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best of the worlds. Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful browser is important and right now if the browser does not support trait then we should remove traits from the image. Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and other package related functionality. Stef
On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote:
Hi Folks,
I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a bit confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. I thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave me a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, not packages). I cannot even see any more how to switch between the two.
Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.)
- on
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PakcageInfo is slow. I'm starting to work on a replacement. On Jul 3, 2009, at 12:45 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Stef,
My initial reaction is to strongly suggest doing something to get the additional speed offered by the choice below, but I need to either get some hard data by profiling some typical operations, or at least work with it under real conditions. I am curious what others who have found Pharo to be sluggish find with it.
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:45 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
Choose OB but not the version with package when you change from system browser to other by clicking ong the left top bottom of a window Stef
On Jul 2, 2009, at 11:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Stef,
Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded?
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:30 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
Hi oscar
Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support: - dual browser - class extensions - traits - refactoring - icons
Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear what colin will integrate or not. Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have - dual browser - class extensions - traits - icons So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best of the worlds. Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful browser is important and right now if the browser does not support trait then we should remove traits from the image. Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and other package related functionality. Stef
On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote:
Hi Folks,
I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a bit confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. I thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave me a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, not packages). I cannot even see any more how to switch between the two.
Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.)
- on
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Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded?
You use a Pharo-Core image and the script published here (you might want to comments the parts you don't need, e.g. Seaside, Magirtte, Pier): http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/ImageBuildScripts Lukas 2009/7/2 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>:
Stef,
Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded?
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:30 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
Hi oscar
Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support:     - dual browser     - class extensions     - traits     - refactoring     - icons
Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear what colin will integrate or not. Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have     - dual browser     - class extensions     - traits     - icons So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best of the worlds. Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful browser is important and right now if the browser does not support trait then we should remove traits from the image. Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and other package related functionality. Stef
On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote:
Hi Folks,
I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. Â I am a bit confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. Â I thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave me a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, not packages). Â I cannot even see any more how to switch between the two.
Can someone enlighten me? Â (Then I can explain it in the book.)
- on
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-- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch
2009/7/3 Lukas Renggli <renggli@gmail.com>:
Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded?
You use a Pharo-Core image and the script published here (you might want to comments the parts you don't need, e.g. Seaside, Magirtte, Pier):
Lukas, how did you put a syntax highlight for this script? Can't beleive Google supports smalltalk syntax highlighting :)
Lukas
2009/7/2 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>:
Stef,
Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded?
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:30 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
Hi oscar
Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support:     - dual browser     - class extensions     - traits     - refactoring     - icons
Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear what colin will integrate or not. Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have     - dual browser     - class extensions     - traits     - icons So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best of the worlds. Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful browser is important and right now if the browser does not support trait then we should remove traits from the image. Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and other package related functionality. Stef
On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote:
Hi Folks,
I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. Â I am a bit confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. Â I thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave me a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, not packages). Â I cannot even see any more how to switch between the two.
Can someone enlighten me? Â (Then I can explain it in the book.)
- on
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
-- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch
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-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
Lukas, how did you put a syntax highlight for this script? Can't beleive Google supports smalltalk syntax highlighting :)
That's done automatically. I guess it uses Javascript highlighting, it is certainly not quite correct. AFAIK there is no way to disable or change it. Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz<oscar@iam.unibe.ch> wrote:
I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. Â I am a bit confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. Â I thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave me a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, not packages). Â I cannot even see any more how to switch between the two.
Can someone enlighten me? Â (Then I can explain it in the book.)
Pharo will contain a package-based browser. Please forget the image I gave you this afternoon. I've already generated a new one. -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry
participants (10)
-
Adrian Lienhard -
Alexandre Bergel -
Damien Cassou -
Igor Stasenko -
John M McIntosh -
Lukas Renggli -
Mariano Martinez Peck -
Oscar Nierstrasz -
Schwab,Wilhelm K -
Stéphane Ducasse