call for help: answer on HN :)
Hi, yesterday someone posted an article on HN about the Pharo MOOC and there has been some negative posts there. I would like to call people who can have the time to answer there and help to explain better and also contribute to contest that FUD someones (we know who they are⦠sames as always) are spreading. here the link : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16754872 <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16754872> (this is not loosing time, people searching for Pharo will likely see this kind of messages⦠at least we need to offer our point of view) cheers! Esteban
I tend to not care about people pissing on me via a pseudo. This is too easy and too microscopic to have any value. Thanks Philippe, Luke and Ben because you use your real names. On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
yesterday someone posted an article on HN about the Pharo MOOC and there has been some negative posts there. I would like to call people who can have the time to answer there and help to explain better and also contribute to contest that FUD someones (we know who they are⦠sames as always) are spreading.
here the link : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16754872
(this is not loosing time, people searching for Pharo will likely see this kind of messages⦠at least we need to offer our point of view)
cheers! Esteban
I guess the more Pharo will be known, the more we will have FUD. I think we should ignore them most of the time. What is problematic here is personal attack with anonymous alias ... Regards On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 4:26 PM, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com> wrote:
I tend to not care about people pissing on me via a pseudo. This is too easy and too microscopic to have any value. Thanks Philippe, Luke and Ben because you use your real names.
On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
yesterday someone posted an article on HN about the Pharo MOOC and there has been some negative posts there. I would like to call people who can have the time to answer there and help to explain better and also contribute to contest that FUD someones (we know who they are⦠sames as always) are spreading.
here the link : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16754872
(this is not loosing time, people searching for Pharo will likely see this kind of messages⦠at least we need to offer our point of view)
cheers! Esteban
-- Serge Stinckwich UMI UMMISCO 209 (SU/IRD/UY1) "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute."http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
Hi Here is a link to a report about their experience with Pharo: https://gitlab.fit.cvut.cz/taibrmar/sokoban-using-bloc There definitely exist things that should be improved. It is a pity when tiny âminorâ issues leave such an unpleasant aftertaste. Anyway, there are lovers and haters of every language. Some people even give dislikes to videos on YouTube that show how veterinarians heal cats... All the best Alex On Sat, 7 Apr 2018 at 17:27, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com> wrote:
I tend to not care about people pissing on me via a pseudo. This is too easy and too microscopic to have any value. Thanks Philippe, Luke and Ben because you use your real names.
On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
yesterday someone posted an article on HN about the Pharo MOOC and there has been some negative posts there. I would like to call people who can have the time to answer there and help to explain better and also contribute to contest that FUD someones (we know who they are⦠sames as always) are spreading.
here the link : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16754872
(this is not loosing time, people searching for Pharo will likely see this kind of messages⦠at least we need to offer our point of view)
cheers! Esteban
-- Cheers, Alex
On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 4:48 PM, Aliaksei Syrel <alex.syrel@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi
Here is a link to a report about their experience with Pharo: https://gitlab.fit.cvut.cz/taibrmar/sokoban-using-bloc
There definitely exist things that should be improved. It is a pity when tiny âminorâ issues leave such an unpleasant aftertaste.
âYes minor details kill most of the time the experience of new learners. For more experienced people like us, we know how to avoid them :-) Maybe specific sprints should be done to take care of some of them ? â âRegards,â -- Serge Stinckwich UMI UMMISCO 209 (SU/IRD/UY1) "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute."http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
You see I told them NOT to use github. I told them that Bloc was alpha. They got a large list of topics and could have picked another one. Now of course we should improve and they too. So personally I do not care. Stef On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 5:48 PM, Aliaksei Syrel <alex.syrel@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi
Here is a link to a report about their experience with Pharo: https://gitlab.fit.cvut.cz/taibrmar/sokoban-using-bloc
There definitely exist things that should be improved. It is a pity when tiny âminorâ issues leave such an unpleasant aftertaste.
Anyway, there are lovers and haters of every language. Some people even give dislikes to videos on YouTube that show how veterinarians heal cats...
All the best Alex
On Sat, 7 Apr 2018 at 17:27, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com> wrote:
I tend to not care about people pissing on me via a pseudo. This is too easy and too microscopic to have any value. Thanks Philippe, Luke and Ben because you use your real names.
On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
yesterday someone posted an article on HN about the Pharo MOOC and there has been some negative posts there. I would like to call people who can have the time to answer there and help to explain better and also contribute to contest that FUD someones (we know who they are⦠sames as always) are spreading.
here the link : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16754872
(this is not loosing time, people searching for Pharo will likely see this kind of messages⦠at least we need to offer our point of view)
cheers! Esteban
-- Cheers, Alex
Stephane Ducasse-3 wrote
I told them NOT to use github. I told them that Bloc was alpha.
I wonder if we could make those points more explicit. Maybe a welcome window disclaimer for Iceberg, since it's preinstalled? ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
It was a year ago and now Iceberg will become iceberg20. And a year ago we could/should have used Pharo 50 but we used Pharo 6.1 and the 64bits bit us. Let us focus on the future and yes we should improve. Stef On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 3:32 AM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean@clipperadams.com> wrote:
Stephane Ducasse-3 wrote
I told them NOT to use github. I told them that Bloc was alpha.
I wonder if we could make those points more explicit. Maybe a welcome window disclaimer for Iceberg, since it's preinstalled?
----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
On Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 08:17 Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com> wrote:
It was a year ago and now Iceberg will become iceberg20. And a year ago we could/should have used Pharo 50 but we used Pharo 6.1 and the 64bits bit us. Let us focus on the future and yes we should improve.
If there is something I learned from the Pharo community, this is this persistent will to make it movd forward and become better. There have been failed experiments along the way but mostly a lot of positive things. Who would have envisioned the Pharo of today in the beginning? Despite criticism, people are trucking forward. That's great and definitely inspiring. I am thankful for Pharo, trolls be damned. Phil
Stef
On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 3:32 AM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean@clipperadams.com> wrote:
Stephane Ducasse-3 wrote
I told them NOT to use github. I told them that Bloc was alpha.
I wonder if we could make those points more explicit. Maybe a welcome window disclaimer for Iceberg, since it's preinstalled?
----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
philippeback wrote
Who would have envisioned the Pharo of today in the beginning? I am thankful for Pharo, trolls be damned.
Absolutely agree!! ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
There's a talk on the state of Clojure which I think resonates a lot with what we're experiencing in Pharo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YCkOo5Y4Oo Spoiler: he concludes it's better to contribute and discuss issues than to be all sad and bitter :-) On 10 April 2018 at 17:37, Sean P. DeNigris <sean@clipperadams.com> wrote:
philippeback wrote
Who would have envisioned the Pharo of today in the beginning? I am thankful for Pharo, trolls be damned.
Absolutely agree!!
----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
-- Damien Pollet type less, do more [ | ] http://people.untyped.org/damien.pollet
Thanks Damien for the spoil :) I like when I can view that fast a video :) I prefer coding. On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 11:21 PM, Damien Pollet <damien.pollet@gmail.com> wrote:
There's a talk on the state of Clojure which I think resonates a lot with what we're experiencing in Pharo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YCkOo5Y4Oo Spoiler: he concludes it's better to contribute and discuss issues than to be all sad and bitter :-)
On 10 April 2018 at 17:37, Sean P. DeNigris <sean@clipperadams.com> wrote:
philippeback wrote
Who would have envisioned the Pharo of today in the beginning? I am thankful for Pharo, trolls be damned.
Absolutely agree!!
----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
-- Damien Pollet type less, do more [ | ] http://people.untyped.org/damien.pollet
Hi Alex, Le 07/04/2018 à 17:48, Aliaksei Syrel a écrit :
Hi
Here is a link to a report about their experience with Pharo: https://gitlab.fit.cvut.cz/taibrmar/sokoban-using-bloc
There definitely exist things that should be improved. It is a pity when tiny âminorâ issues leave such an unpleasant aftertaste.
Some of them are, sadly, quite unacceptable, IMHO. I would really dream of a stable, correctly interruptible (i.e. a Cmd-. that really works), limited Pharo core. That would help development so significantly and allow more experiments. I solve that by making stuff that distance itself as much as possible from a lot of the Pharo stuff that evolves far too much, far too fast to be relied upon (widgets, graphics, editors), and I'm looking forward to building a limited(*) image with just and only the things I rely on. One of the thing I need is a CI that triggers both on my code releases and any Pharo update (including the stable ones) since even stable releases may change core APIs.
Anyway, there are lovers and haters of every language.
That I can agree with :)
Some people even give dislikes to videos on YouTube that show how veterinarians heal cats...
All the best Alex
Regards, Thierry (*) I did try with the minimal image, and the tools are clearly limiting.
On Sat, 7 Apr 2018 at 17:27, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com <mailto:stepharo.self@gmail.com>> wrote:
I tend to not care about people pissing on me via a pseudo. This is too easy and too microscopic to have any value. Thanks Philippe, Luke and Ben because you use your real names.
On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>> wrote: > Hi, > > yesterday someone posted an article on HN about the Pharo MOOC and there has > been some negative posts there. > I would like to call people who can have the time to answer there and help > to explain better and also contribute to contest that FUD someones (we know > who they are⦠sames as always) are spreading. > > here the link : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16754872 > > (this is not loosing time, people searching for Pharo will likely see this > kind of messages⦠at least we need to offer our point of view) > > cheers! > Esteban
-- Cheers, Alex
interruptible.. yes! On Sat, Apr 7, 2018, 19:10 Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Alex,
Le 07/04/2018 à 17:48, Aliaksei Syrel a écrit :
Hi
Here is a link to a report about their experience with Pharo: https://gitlab.fit.cvut.cz/taibrmar/sokoban-using-bloc
There definitely exist things that should be improved. It is a pity when tiny âminorâ issues leave such an unpleasant aftertaste.
Some of them are, sadly, quite unacceptable, IMHO.
I would really dream of a stable, correctly interruptible (i.e. a Cmd-. that really works), limited Pharo core. That would help development so significantly and allow more experiments.
I solve that by making stuff that distance itself as much as possible from a lot of the Pharo stuff that evolves far too much, far too fast to be relied upon (widgets, graphics, editors), and I'm looking forward to building a limited(*) image with just and only the things I rely on.
One of the thing I need is a CI that triggers both on my code releases and any Pharo update (including the stable ones) since even stable releases may change core APIs.
Anyway, there are lovers and haters of every language.
That I can agree with :)
Some people even give dislikes to videos on YouTube that show how veterinarians heal cats...
All the best Alex
Regards,
Thierry
(*) I did try with the minimal image, and the tools are clearly limiting.
On Sat, 7 Apr 2018 at 17:27, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com <mailto:stepharo.self@gmail.com>> wrote:
I tend to not care about people pissing on me via a pseudo. This is too easy and too microscopic to have any value. Thanks Philippe, Luke and Ben because you use your real names.
On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>> wrote: > Hi, > > yesterday someone posted an article on HN about the Pharo MOOC and there has > been some negative posts there. > I would like to call people who can have the time to answer there and help > to explain better and also contribute to contest that FUD someones (we know > who they are⦠sames as always) are spreading. > > here the link : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16754872 > > (this is not loosing time, people searching for Pharo will likely see this > kind of messages⦠at least we need to offer our point of view) > > cheers! > Esteban
-- Cheers, Alex
yeah the guy (martin whatever) is a troll, if I remember correctly its the same dude we had on the reddit forum for Smalltalk that has been attacking Pharo with pure lies. He is a typical troll that blows off steam by annoying other people. I am with Stef with this one, the only way to win against a troll is silence. I had a very recent experience where the person in charge underestimated a troll, he overflown the mailing list with negative, many people took the bait and tried to have a civilized discussions with him, he drag it one for month until people started abandoning the community and the community essentially died. I adviced them not to feed the troll but as in many other cases, people dont even listen. Pharo is far from perfect, but this is not a logical discussion , its pure troll tactic. Do not underestimate the power of a troll, it is more powerful than you can imagine and feed on politeness and rationality. Don't feed the troll. On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 8:13 PM phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be> wrote:
interruptible.. yes!
On Sat, Apr 7, 2018, 19:10 Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Alex,
Le 07/04/2018 à 17:48, Aliaksei Syrel a écrit :
Hi
Here is a link to a report about their experience with Pharo: https://gitlab.fit.cvut.cz/taibrmar/sokoban-using-bloc
There definitely exist things that should be improved. It is a pity when tiny âminorâ issues leave such an unpleasant aftertaste.
Some of them are, sadly, quite unacceptable, IMHO.
I would really dream of a stable, correctly interruptible (i.e. a Cmd-. that really works), limited Pharo core. That would help development so significantly and allow more experiments.
I solve that by making stuff that distance itself as much as possible from a lot of the Pharo stuff that evolves far too much, far too fast to be relied upon (widgets, graphics, editors), and I'm looking forward to building a limited(*) image with just and only the things I rely on.
One of the thing I need is a CI that triggers both on my code releases and any Pharo update (including the stable ones) since even stable releases may change core APIs.
Anyway, there are lovers and haters of every language.
That I can agree with :)
Some people even give dislikes to videos on YouTube that show how veterinarians heal cats...
All the best Alex
Regards,
Thierry
(*) I did try with the minimal image, and the tools are clearly limiting.
On Sat, 7 Apr 2018 at 17:27, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com <mailto:stepharo.self@gmail.com>> wrote:
I tend to not care about people pissing on me via a pseudo. This is too easy and too microscopic to have any value. Thanks Philippe, Luke and Ben because you use your real names.
On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>> wrote: > Hi, > > yesterday someone posted an article on HN about the Pharo MOOC and there has > been some negative posts there. > I would like to call people who can have the time to answer there and help > to explain better and also contribute to contest that FUD someones (we know > who they are⦠sames as always) are spreading. > > here the link : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16754872 > > (this is not loosing time, people searching for Pharo will likely see this > kind of messages⦠at least we need to offer our point of view) > > cheers! > Esteban
-- Cheers, Alex
Even if he is a troll, he pointed out many things that aren't given priority because we're building "next great stuff" and with the limited resource you either stop to world to fix what's already made or you move forward. And IMO it is true that the next great stuff is being built, a better paradigm, moldability, and whatnot, but that means that, for a while, tools, and the image itself won't be "rock solid", and since most things are not backportable or maintained (there are no resources to have LTS versions), it is hard to define what's the minimum rock-solid core on which to build upon. E.g. The infinite walkback error pointed in this screenshot https://i.imgur.com/7jiKIhd.png still chases me from time to time, and I remember having reported it a long time ago, and it was considered fixed. So I wouldn't feed the troll, but I woudln't kill the messenger either. Regards, On 07/04/2018 14:26, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
yeah the guy (martin whatever) is a troll, if I remember correctly its the same dude we had on the reddit forum for Smalltalk that has been attacking Pharo with pure lies. He is a typical troll that blows off steam by annoying other people. I am with Stef with this one, the only way to win against a troll is silence. I had a very recent experience where the person in charge underestimated a troll, he overflown the mailing list with negative, many people took the bait and tried to have a civilized discussions with him, he drag it one for month until people started abandoning the community and the community essentially died.Â
I adviced them not to feed the troll but as in many other cases, people dont even listen.Â
Pharo is far from perfect, but this is not a logical discussion , its pure troll tactic. Do not underestimate the power of a troll, it is more powerful than you can imagine and feed on politeness and rationality.Â
Don't feed the troll.Â
On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 8:13 PM phil@highoctane.be <mailto:phil@highoctane.be> <phil@highoctane.be <mailto:phil@highoctane.be>> wrote:
interruptible.. yes!
On Sat, Apr 7, 2018, 19:10 Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi Alex,
Le 07/04/2018 à 17:48, Aliaksei Syrel a écrit : > Hi > > Here is a link to a report about their experience with Pharo: > https://gitlab.fit.cvut.cz/taibrmar/sokoban-using-bloc > > There definitely exist things that should be improved. It is a pity when > tiny âminorâ issues leave such an unpleasant aftertaste.
Some of them are, sadly, quite unacceptable, IMHO.
I would really dream of a stable, correctly interruptible (i.e. a Cmd-. that really works), limited Pharo core. That would help development so significantly and allow more experiments.
I solve that by making stuff that distance itself as much as possible from a lot of the Pharo stuff that evolves far too much, far too fast to be relied upon (widgets, graphics, editors), and I'm looking forward to building a limited(*) image with just and only the things I rely on.
One of the thing I need is a CI that triggers both on my code releases and any Pharo update (including the stable ones) since even stable releases may change core APIs.
> Anyway, there are lovers and haters of every language.
That I can agree with :)
> Some people even > give dislikes to videos on YouTube that show how veterinarians heal cats... > > All the best > Alex
Regards,
Thierry
(*) I did try with the minimal image, and the tools are clearly limiting.
> On Sat, 7 Apr 2018 at 17:27, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com <mailto:stepharo.self@gmail.com> > <mailto:stepharo.self@gmail.com <mailto:stepharo.self@gmail.com>>> wrote: > >   I tend to not care about people pissing on me via a pseudo. This is >   too easy and too microscopic to have any value. >   Thanks Philippe, Luke and Ben because you use your real names. > >   On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Esteban Lorenzano >   <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com> <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>>> wrote: >   > Hi, >   > >   > yesterday someone posted an article on HN about the Pharo MOOC >   and there has >   > been some negative posts there. >   > I would like to call people who can have the time to answer there >   and help >   > to explain better and also contribute to contest that FUD >   someones (we know >   > who they are⦠sames as always) are spreading. >   > >   > here the link : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16754872 >   > >   > (this is not loosing time, people searching for Pharo will likely >   see this >   > kind of messages⦠at least we need to offer our point of view) >   > >   > cheers! >   > Esteban > > -- > Cheers, > Alex
-- Esteban A. Maringolo
Yes me too and this is on our todo. Because I hate it. Now as usual the more we get help the faster we are. For example Pablo rewrote the FT logic to use FFI instead of the unstable plugin. And when he is doing this he is not doing something else. Same of streams and many other. Stef On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 2:18 AM, Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo@gmail.com> wrote:
Even if he is a troll, he pointed out many things that aren't given priority because we're building "next great stuff" and with the limited resource you either stop to world to fix what's already made or you move forward.
And IMO it is true that the next great stuff is being built, a better paradigm, moldability, and whatnot, but that means that, for a while, tools, and the image itself won't be "rock solid", and since most things are not backportable or maintained (there are no resources to have LTS versions), it is hard to define what's the minimum rock-solid core on which to build upon.
E.g. The infinite walkback error pointed in this screenshot https://i.imgur.com/7jiKIhd.png still chases me from time to time, and I remember having reported it a long time ago, and it was considered fixed.
So I wouldn't feed the troll, but I woudln't kill the messenger either.
Regards,
On 07/04/2018 14:26, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
yeah the guy (martin whatever) is a troll, if I remember correctly its the same dude we had on the reddit forum for Smalltalk that has been attacking Pharo with pure lies. He is a typical troll that blows off steam by annoying other people. I am with Stef with this one, the only way to win against a troll is silence. I had a very recent experience where the person in charge underestimated a troll, he overflown the mailing list with negative, many people took the bait and tried to have a civilized discussions with him, he drag it one for month until people started abandoning the community and the community essentially died.
I adviced them not to feed the troll but as in many other cases, people dont even listen.
Pharo is far from perfect, but this is not a logical discussion , its pure troll tactic. Do not underestimate the power of a troll, it is more powerful than you can imagine and feed on politeness and rationality.
Don't feed the troll.
On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 8:13 PM phil@highoctane.be <mailto:phil@highoctane.be> <phil@highoctane.be <mailto:phil@highoctane.be>> wrote:
interruptible.. yes!
On Sat, Apr 7, 2018, 19:10 Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi Alex,
Le 07/04/2018 à 17:48, Aliaksei Syrel a écrit : > Hi > > Here is a link to a report about their experience with Pharo: > https://gitlab.fit.cvut.cz/taibrmar/sokoban-using-bloc > > There definitely exist things that should be improved. It is a pity when > tiny âminorâ issues leave such an unpleasant aftertaste.
Some of them are, sadly, quite unacceptable, IMHO.
I would really dream of a stable, correctly interruptible (i.e. a Cmd-. that really works), limited Pharo core. That would help development so significantly and allow more experiments.
I solve that by making stuff that distance itself as much as possible from a lot of the Pharo stuff that evolves far too much, far too fast to be relied upon (widgets, graphics, editors), and I'm looking forward to building a limited(*) image with just and only the things I rely on.
One of the thing I need is a CI that triggers both on my code releases and any Pharo update (including the stable ones) since even stable releases may change core APIs.
> Anyway, there are lovers and haters of every language.
That I can agree with :)
> Some people even > give dislikes to videos on YouTube that show how veterinarians heal cats... > > All the best > Alex
Regards,
Thierry
(*) I did try with the minimal image, and the tools are clearly limiting.
> On Sat, 7 Apr 2018 at 17:27, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com <mailto:stepharo.self@gmail.com> > <mailto:stepharo.self@gmail.com <mailto:stepharo.self@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > I tend to not care about people pissing on me via a pseudo. This is > too easy and too microscopic to have any value. > Thanks Philippe, Luke and Ben because you use your real names. > > On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Esteban Lorenzano > <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com> <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > yesterday someone posted an article on HN about the Pharo MOOC > and there has > > been some negative posts there. > > I would like to call people who can have the time to answer there > and help > > to explain better and also contribute to contest that FUD > someones (we know > > who they are⦠sames as always) are spreading. > > > > here the link : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16754872 > > > > (this is not loosing time, people searching for Pharo will likely > see this > > kind of messages⦠at least we need to offer our point of view) > > > > cheers! > > Esteban > > -- > Cheers, > Alex
-- Esteban A. Maringolo
2018-04-09 2:18 GMT+02:00 Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo@gmail.com>:
Even if he is a troll, he pointed out many things that aren't given priority because we're building "next great stuff" and with the limited resource you either stop to world to fix what's already made or you move forward.
And IMO it is true that the next great stuff is being built, a better paradigm, moldability, and whatnot, but that means that, for a while, tools, and the image itself won't be "rock solid", and since most things are not backportable or maintained (there are no resources to have LTS versions), it is hard to define what's the minimum rock-solid core on which to build upon.
I wonder if some things could be solved by taking a slightly different path... - Non rock solid base could be cared for by debugging that allways work - Not threaded image could be solved by "image sharing between processes" - Multiple host windows would mean forking the image Imagine a world where: - The smalltalk debugger can remote debug via gdb(*) a locked image (or one where you have crashed the world because you played with core graphics stuff)... - The smalltalk debugger can inject new code into a remote image via gdb again (**). - Two images can easily share objects with almost zero overhead(***) - One image can easily keeps its code in sync with another one (object duplication between images) I know of TelePharo, and, after looking at the underlying implementation, it's not good enough. The core undebuggability of the platform is not solved (at all). The undebuggability of the platform is a significant barrier. I worked on the SmaCC GT debugger because my students were regularly locking their images with it (usually something as simple as stepping over the end of the computation) so I've added many, many guards, to try to protect from that; I know think a strong limitation of exploring new debug modes is mainly linked to the ease of locking your image with it. Regards, Thierry (*) gdb over serial talking to a boot eeprom equivalent, mapped with a remapping of step to smalltalk instructions (like in a true debugger) (**) So that, from that smalltalk over gdb debugger, you can fix, compile and proceed (***) And so, no story of running a "determine the right object graph with more smalltalk code... ", that is too slow
E.g. The infinite walkback error pointed in this screenshot https://i.imgur.com/7jiKIhd.png still chases me from time to time, and I remember having reported it a long time ago, and it was considered fixed.
So I wouldn't feed the troll, but I woudln't kill the messenger either.
Regards,
On 07/04/2018 14:26, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
yeah the guy (martin whatever) is a troll, if I remember correctly its the same dude we had on the reddit forum for Smalltalk that has been attacking Pharo with pure lies. He is a typical troll that blows off steam by annoying other people. I am with Stef with this one, the only way to win against a troll is silence. I had a very recent experience where the person in charge underestimated a troll, he overflown the mailing list with negative, many people took the bait and tried to have a civilized discussions with him, he drag it one for month until people started abandoning the community and the community essentially died.
I adviced them not to feed the troll but as in many other cases, people dont even listen.
Pharo is far from perfect, but this is not a logical discussion , its pure troll tactic. Do not underestimate the power of a troll, it is more powerful than you can imagine and feed on politeness and rationality.
Don't feed the troll.
On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 8:13 PM phil@highoctane.be <mailto:phil@highoctane.be> <phil@highoctane.be <mailto:phil@highoctane.be>> wrote:
interruptible.. yes!
On Sat, Apr 7, 2018, 19:10 Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi Alex,
Le 07/04/2018 à 17:48, Aliaksei Syrel a écrit : > Hi > > Here is a link to a report about their experience with Pharo: > https://gitlab.fit.cvut.cz/taibrmar/sokoban-using-bloc > > There definitely exist things that should be improved. It is a pity when > tiny âminorâ issues leave such an unpleasant aftertaste.
Some of them are, sadly, quite unacceptable, IMHO.
I would really dream of a stable, correctly interruptible (i.e. a Cmd-. that really works), limited Pharo core. That would help development so significantly and allow more experiments.
I solve that by making stuff that distance itself as much as possible from a lot of the Pharo stuff that evolves far too much, far too fast to be relied upon (widgets, graphics, editors), and I'm looking forward to building a limited(*) image with just and only the things I rely on.
One of the thing I need is a CI that triggers both on my code releases and any Pharo update (including the stable ones) since even stable releases may change core APIs.
> Anyway, there are lovers and haters of every language.
That I can agree with :)
> Some people even > give dislikes to videos on YouTube that show how veterinarians heal cats... > > All the best > Alex
Regards,
Thierry
(*) I did try with the minimal image, and the tools are clearly limiting.
> On Sat, 7 Apr 2018 at 17:27, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com <mailto:stepharo.self@gmail.com> > <mailto:stepharo.self@gmail.com <mailto:stepharo.self@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > I tend to not care about people pissing on me via a pseudo. This is > too easy and too microscopic to have any value. > Thanks Philippe, Luke and Ben because you use your real names. > > On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Esteban Lorenzano > <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com> <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > yesterday someone posted an article on HN about the Pharo MOOC > and there has > > been some negative posts there. > > I would like to call people who can have the time to answer there > and help > > to explain better and also contribute to contest that FUD > someones (we know > > who they are⦠sames as always) are spreading. > > > > here the link : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16754872 > > > > (this is not loosing time, people searching for Pharo will likely > see this > > kind of messages⦠at least we need to offer our point of view) > > > > cheers! > > Esteban > > -- > Cheers, > Alex
-- Esteban A. Maringolo
On 9 April 2018 at 14:50, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com> wrote:
2018-04-09 2:18 GMT+02:00 Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo@gmail.com>:
Even if he is a troll, he pointed out many things that aren't given priority because we're building "next great stuff" and with the limited resource you either stop to world to fix what's already made or you move forward.
And IMO it is true that the next great stuff is being built, a better paradigm, moldability, and whatnot, but that means that, for a while, tools, and the image itself won't be "rock solid", and since most things are not backportable or maintained (there are no resources to have LTS versions), it is hard to define what's the minimum rock-solid core on which to build upon.
I wonder if some things could be solved by taking a slightly different path...
- Non rock solid base could be cared for by debugging that allways work
- Not threaded image could be solved by "image sharing between processes"
Can you expand on this. I can't follow.
- Multiple host windows would mean forking the image
I presume your mean native fork(), rather than Smalltalk #fork. cheers -ben
Imagine a world where: - The smalltalk debugger can remote debug via gdb(*) a locked image (or one where you have crashed the world because you played with core graphics stuff)... - The smalltalk debugger can inject new code into a remote image via gdb again (**). - Two images can easily share objects with almost zero overhead(***) - One image can easily keeps its code in sync with another one (object duplication between images)
I know of TelePharo, and, after looking at the underlying implementation, it's not good enough. The core undebuggability of the platform is not solved (at all).
The undebuggability of the platform is a significant barrier. I worked on the SmaCC GT debugger because my students were regularly locking their images with it (usually something as simple as stepping over the end of the computation) so I've added many, many guards, to try to protect from that; I know think a strong limitation of exploring new debug modes is mainly linked to the ease of locking your image with it.
Regards,
Thierry
(*) gdb over serial talking to a boot eeprom equivalent, mapped with a remapping of step to smalltalk instructions (like in a true debugger) (**) So that, from that smalltalk over gdb debugger, you can fix, compile and proceed (***) And so, no story of running a "determine the right object graph with more smalltalk code... ", that is too slow
E.g. The infinite walkback error pointed in this screenshot https://i.imgur.com/7jiKIhd.png still chases me from time to time, and I remember having reported it a long time ago, and it was considered fixed.
So I wouldn't feed the troll, but I woudln't kill the messenger either.
Regards,
On 07/04/2018 14:26, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
yeah the guy (martin whatever) is a troll, if I remember correctly its the same dude we had on the reddit forum for Smalltalk that has been attacking Pharo with pure lies. He is a typical troll that blows off steam by annoying other people. I am with Stef with this one, the only way to win against a troll is silence. I had a very recent experience where the person in charge underestimated a troll, he overflown the mailing list with negative, many people took the bait and tried to have a civilized discussions with him, he drag it one for month until people started abandoning the community and the community essentially died.
I adviced them not to feed the troll but as in many other cases, people dont even listen.
Pharo is far from perfect, but this is not a logical discussion , its pure troll tactic. Do not underestimate the power of a troll, it is more powerful than you can imagine and feed on politeness and rationality.
Don't feed the troll.
On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 8:13 PM phil@highoctane.be <mailto:phil@highoctane.be> <phil@highoctane.be <mailto:phil@highoctane.be>> wrote:
interruptible.. yes!
On Sat, Apr 7, 2018, 19:10 Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi Alex,
Le 07/04/2018 à 17:48, Aliaksei Syrel a écrit : > Hi > > Here is a link to a report about their experience with Pharo: > https://gitlab.fit.cvut.cz/taibrmar/sokoban-using-bloc > > There definitely exist things that should be improved. It is a pity when > tiny âminorâ issues leave such an unpleasant aftertaste.
Some of them are, sadly, quite unacceptable, IMHO.
I would really dream of a stable, correctly interruptible (i.e. a Cmd-. that really works), limited Pharo core. That would help development so significantly and allow more experiments.
I solve that by making stuff that distance itself as much as possible from a lot of the Pharo stuff that evolves far too much, far too fast to be relied upon (widgets, graphics, editors), and I'm looking forward to building a limited(*) image with just and only the things I rely on.
One of the thing I need is a CI that triggers both on my code releases and any Pharo update (including the stable ones) since even stable releases may change core APIs.
> Anyway, there are lovers and haters of every language.
That I can agree with :)
> Some people even > give dislikes to videos on YouTube that show how veterinarians heal cats... > > All the best > Alex
Regards,
Thierry
(*) I did try with the minimal image, and the tools are clearly limiting.
> On Sat, 7 Apr 2018 at 17:27, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com <mailto:stepharo.self@gmail.com> > <mailto:stepharo.self@gmail.com <mailto:stepharo.self@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > I tend to not care about people pissing on me via a pseudo. This is > too easy and too microscopic to have any value. > Thanks Philippe, Luke and Ben because you use your real names. > > On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Esteban Lorenzano > <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com> <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > yesterday someone posted an article on HN about the Pharo MOOC > and there has > > been some negative posts there. > > I would like to call people who can have the time to answer there > and help > > to explain better and also contribute to contest that FUD > someones (we know > > who they are⦠sames as always) are spreading. > > > > here the link : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16754872 > > > > (this is not loosing time, people searching for Pharo will likely > see this > > kind of messages⦠at least we need to offer our point of view) > > > > cheers! > > Esteban > > -- > Cheers, > Alex
-- Esteban A. Maringolo
2018-04-09 15:28 GMT+02:00 Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com>:
On 9 April 2018 at 14:50, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com> wrote:
2018-04-09 2:18 GMT+02:00 Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo@gmail.com>:
Even if he is a troll, he pointed out many things that aren't given priority because we're building "next great stuff" and with the limited resource you either stop to world to fix what's already made or you move forward.
And IMO it is true that the next great stuff is being built, a better paradigm, moldability, and whatnot, but that means that, for a while, tools, and the image itself won't be "rock solid", and since most things are not backportable or maintained (there are no resources to have LTS versions), it is hard to define what's the minimum rock-solid core on which to build upon.
I wonder if some things could be solved by taking a slightly different path...
- Non rock solid base could be cared for by debugging that allways work
- Not threaded image could be solved by "image sharing between processes"
Can you expand on this. I can't follow.
Have objects freely moving between images (or being duplicated between images). Nothing really outlandish, just your standard either distributed object stuff, or software distributed shared memory (image segments could be the right abstraction). A use case: main image with full tools (one window), linked image with application-only code (one window), each time you compile a method in the main image, linked image gets it because it track system announcer changes.
- Multiple host windows would mean forking the image
I presume your mean native fork(), rather than Smalltalk #fork.
Exactly. Thierry
cheers -ben
Imagine a world where: - The smalltalk debugger can remote debug via gdb(*) a locked image (or one where you have crashed the world because you played with core graphics stuff)... - The smalltalk debugger can inject new code into a remote image via gdb again (**). - Two images can easily share objects with almost zero overhead(***) - One image can easily keeps its code in sync with another one (object duplication between images)
I know of TelePharo, and, after looking at the underlying implementation, it's not good enough. The core undebuggability of the platform is not solved (at all).
The undebuggability of the platform is a significant barrier. I worked on the SmaCC GT debugger because my students were regularly locking their images with it (usually something as simple as stepping over the end of the computation) so I've added many, many guards, to try to protect from that; I know think a strong limitation of exploring new debug modes is mainly linked to the ease of locking your image with it.
Regards,
Thierry
(*) gdb over serial talking to a boot eeprom equivalent, mapped with a remapping of step to smalltalk instructions (like in a true debugger) (**) So that, from that smalltalk over gdb debugger, you can fix, compile and proceed (***) And so, no story of running a "determine the right object graph with more smalltalk code... ", that is too slow
E.g. The infinite walkback error pointed in this screenshot https://i.imgur.com/7jiKIhd.png still chases me from time to time, and I remember having reported it a long time ago, and it was considered fixed.
So I wouldn't feed the troll, but I woudln't kill the messenger either.
Regards,
On 07/04/2018 14:26, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
yeah the guy (martin whatever) is a troll, if I remember correctly its the same dude we had on the reddit forum for Smalltalk that has been attacking Pharo with pure lies. He is a typical troll that blows off steam by annoying other people. I am with Stef with this one, the only way to win against a troll is silence. I had a very recent experience where the person in charge underestimated a troll, he overflown the mailing list with negative, many people took the bait and tried to have a civilized discussions with him, he drag it one for month until people started abandoning the community and the community essentially died.
I adviced them not to feed the troll but as in many other cases, people dont even listen.
Pharo is far from perfect, but this is not a logical discussion , its pure troll tactic. Do not underestimate the power of a troll, it is more powerful than you can imagine and feed on politeness and rationality.
Don't feed the troll.
On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 8:13 PM phil@highoctane.be <mailto:phil@highoctane.be> <phil@highoctane.be <mailto:phil@highoctane.be>> wrote:
interruptible.. yes!
On Sat, Apr 7, 2018, 19:10 Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi Alex,
Le 07/04/2018 à 17:48, Aliaksei Syrel a écrit : > Hi > > Here is a link to a report about their experience with Pharo: > https://gitlab.fit.cvut.cz/taibrmar/sokoban-using-bloc > > There definitely exist things that should be improved. It is a pity when > tiny âminorâ issues leave such an unpleasant aftertaste.
Some of them are, sadly, quite unacceptable, IMHO.
I would really dream of a stable, correctly interruptible (i.e. a Cmd-. that really works), limited Pharo core. That would help development so significantly and allow more experiments.
I solve that by making stuff that distance itself as much as possible from a lot of the Pharo stuff that evolves far too much, far too fast to be relied upon (widgets, graphics, editors), and I'm looking forward to building a limited(*) image with just and only the things I rely on.
One of the thing I need is a CI that triggers both on my code releases and any Pharo update (including the stable ones) since even stable releases may change core APIs.
> Anyway, there are lovers and haters of every language.
That I can agree with :)
> Some people even > give dislikes to videos on YouTube that show how veterinarians heal cats... > > All the best > Alex
Regards,
Thierry
(*) I did try with the minimal image, and the tools are clearly limiting.
> On Sat, 7 Apr 2018 at 17:27, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com <mailto:stepharo.self@gmail.com> > <mailto:stepharo.self@gmail.com <mailto:stepharo.self@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > I tend to not care about people pissing on me via a pseudo. This is > too easy and too microscopic to have any value. > Thanks Philippe, Luke and Ben because you use your real names. > > On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Esteban Lorenzano > <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com> <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > yesterday someone posted an article on HN about the Pharo MOOC > and there has > > been some negative posts there. > > I would like to call people who can have the time to answer there > and help > > to explain better and also contribute to contest that FUD > someones (we know > > who they are⦠sames as always) are spreading. > > > > here the link : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16754872 > > > > (this is not loosing time, people searching for Pharo will likely > see this > > kind of messages⦠at least we need to offer our point of view) > > > > cheers! > > Esteban > > -- > Cheers, > Alex
-- Esteban A. Maringolo
participants (11)
-
Aliaksei Syrel -
Ben Coman -
Damien Pollet -
Dimitris Chloupis -
Esteban A. Maringolo -
Esteban Lorenzano -
phil＠highoctane.be -
Sean P. DeNigris -
Serge Stinckwich -
Stephane Ducasse -
Thierry Goubier