[Pharo-project] Just a little point
Hi guys After all the mails in Squeak-dev and all these nice words or explicit suggestions about us been assholes, destructors... whatever :) I would like to share with you my mindset to you. We do not want a war, nor world domination. :) We are doing pharo because Smalltalk deserves a good and beautiful opensource implementation. Our goal is not to kill Squeak. Our goal is to provide a vehicule on top of which people can invent their future been it - multimedia - seaside - kids - research We need a place to expand beauty. We want that students can get enthusiast about Smalltalk and not turned down by some ugly code. We want an agile system with lot of tests, comments, clean code, driven bit a lot of good software engineering practices. I really thank the people that trust us. Stef PS: I'm one the guy that wrote 3 squeak book, 1 seaside book (coming soon), translated etoys in french, so I'm laughing when people suggest that we are predators.
Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
Hi guys
After all the mails in Squeak-dev and all these nice words or explicit suggestions about us been assholes, destructors... whatever :) I would like to share with you my mindset to you.
Might I please request that you read english, no such explicit statement was ever made. Keith
Keith Hodges wrote:
so I'm laughing when people suggest that we are predators.
I am still counting your contributions back to the packages which you are using, which are public domain, and have public repositories...
answer zero
Its not even a technical issue, you have chosen a philosophically predatory stance from the outset. "We will make our own image, without any concern for giving back to those who made it possible" The number of times I have heard, we are changing this that or the other, and if you want the improvement "you can port it if you want to", completely illustrates my point. Those who made the contributions that you are using probably expected that any improvements to their efforts would be fed back to them in a form that they could make use of. It is the main reason for companies to make their code open source, because they anticipate some reciprocation from those who benefit, and thus the benefit is mutual, and might offset the considerable cost of development. And in case you are wondering, the public repository for the community to work towards improving SUnit, ( squeaksource/Testing ) does include #assert:equals: Keith
Chers amis, désolé pour l'anglais mais comme je voulais que tous les principaux intéressés comprennent mon point de vue, j'ai choisi l'anglais! Okay guys, let's put things in perspective here... Pharo isn't at war with Squeak and vice-versa... Just like any kid, it just wants to "live it's own life" and somehow, somewhat, slowly progress and become a little bit different from its parents, here namely Squeak. If find it weird that 2 Smalltalk implementations/communities, so close to each other like Squeak and Pharo, go to great lengths at flaming each other... Don't you find it weird that such discussions don't happen between VisualWorks and Dolphin, between VisualAge and GNU Smalltalk, etc ? We're from the same family. Okay, we're all a bit different different but, deep inside, we're so the same. I'm a happy Smalltalker who's daily job involves VisualWorks, Dolphin and VisualAge. In my spare time, I'm happy "squeaking" and "pharoing". Can't we just respect each other's goals/ambitions/dreams and try to find some communality and try to stay "not too far from each other and benefit from each other" instead of starting a "cold war" that will only leave us isolated, both in our own camps ? I'm puzzled! What do I do if I like both? Choose my camp or abandon them both ? ----------------- Benoit St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Blog: lamneth.wordpress.com A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero. (Albert Einstein) ________________________________ From: Keith Hodges <keith_hodges@yahoo.co.uk> To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2009 12:28:09 PM Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Just a little point Keith Hodges wrote:
so I'm laughing when people suggest that we are predators.
I am still counting your contributions back to the packages which you are using, which are public domain, and have public repositories...
answer zero
Its not even a technical issue, you have chosen a philosophically predatory stance from the outset. "We will make our own image, without any concern for giving back to those who made it possible" The number of times I have heard, we are changing this that or the other, and if you want the improvement "you can port it if you want to", completely illustrates my point. Those who made the contributions that you are using probably expected that any improvements to their efforts would be fed back to them in a form that they could make use of. It is the main reason for companies to make their code open source, because they anticipate some reciprocation from those who benefit, and thus the benefit is mutual, and might offset the considerable cost of development. And in case you are wondering, the public repository for the community to work towards improving SUnit, ( squeaksource/Testing ) does include #assert:equals: Keith _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.
On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 11:28 AM, Keith Hodges<keith_hodges@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Keith Hodges wrote:
so I'm laughing when people suggest that we are predators.
I am still counting your contributions back to the packages which you are using, which are public domain, and have public repositories...
answer zero
Its not even a technical issue, you have chosen a philosophically predatory stance from the outset.
"We will make our own image, without any concern for giving back to those who made it possible" The number of times I have heard, we are changing this that or the other, and if you want the improvement "you can port it if you want to", completely illustrates my point.
Those who made the contributions that you are using probably expected that any improvements to their efforts would be fed back to them in a form that they could make use of.
This is a priori discarded because of the MIT license. If you don't want this kind of behavior, the GPL/LGPL licenses exists for this very exact situation. With MIT you can't force retributions back.
It is the main reason for companies to make their code open source, because they anticipate some reciprocation from those who benefit, and thus the benefit is mutual, and might offset the considerable cost of development.
I don't think so. And when they do so, the choose other license. Take the Java case. It is not MIT, but GPL. This is so that MS, IBM and other can't run away with the code with giving back. Again, the license establish the rights and obligations of the receiving party.
And in case you are wondering, the public repository for the community to work towards improving SUnit, Â ( squeaksource/Testing ) does include
#assert:equals:
Keith
Miguel Cobá
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Guys would it not be cool for each week we pick a different language for the pharo list? I would really like to brush up on my French....and we are very diverse in our group. I think this would have two benefits. 1) we would talk less and write more code 2) we would permanently have our tounge inserted in our cheek. ;-) cheers mike On Tuesday, July 7, 2009, Miguel Cobá <miguel.coba@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 11:28 AM, Keith Hodges<keith_hodges@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Keith Hodges wrote:
so I'm laughing when people suggest that we are predators.
I am still counting your contributions back to the packages which you are using, which are public domain, and have public repositories...
answer zero
Its not even a technical issue, you have chosen a philosophically predatory stance from the outset.
"We will make our own image, without any concern for giving back to those who made it possible" The number of times I have heard, we are changing this that or the other, and if you want the improvement "you can port it if you want to", completely illustrates my point.
Those who made the contributions that you are using probably expected that any improvements to their efforts would be fed back to them in a form that they could make use of.
This is a priori discarded because of the MIT license. If you don't want this kind of behavior, the GPL/LGPL licenses exists for this very exact situation. With MIT you can't force retributions back.
It is the main reason for companies to make their code open source, because they anticipate some reciprocation from those who benefit, and thus the benefit is mutual, and might offset the considerable cost of development.
I don't think so. And when they do so, the choose other license. Take the Java case. It is not MIT, but GPL. This is so that MS, IBM and other can't run away with the code with giving back. Again, the license establish the rights and obligations of the receiving party.
And in case you are wondering, the public repository for the community to work towards improving SUnit, Â ( squeaksource/Testing ) does include
#assert:equals:
Keith
Miguel Cobá
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Michael Roberts<mike@mjr104.co.uk> wrote:
Guys would it not be cool for each week we pick a different language for the pharo list? I would really like to brush up on my French....and we are very diverse in our group. I think this would have two benefits. 1) we would talk less and write more code 2) we would permanently have our tounge inserted in our cheek.
;-)
De acuerdo. Agreed. D'accord. Ich bin einverstanden.
cheers mike On Tuesday, July 7, 2009, Miguel Cobá <miguel.coba@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 11:28 AM, Keith Hodges<keith_hodges@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Keith Hodges wrote:
so I'm laughing when people suggest that we are predators.
I am still counting your contributions back to the packages which you are using, which are public domain, and have public repositories...
answer zero
Its not even a technical issue, you have chosen a philosophically predatory stance from the outset.
"We will make our own image, without any concern for giving back to those who made it possible" The number of times I have heard, we are changing this that or the other, and if you want the improvement "you can port it if you want to", completely illustrates my point.
Those who made the contributions that you are using probably expected that any improvements to their efforts would be fed back to them in a form that they could make use of.
This is a priori discarded because of the MIT license. If you don't want this kind of behavior, the GPL/LGPL licenses exists for this very exact situation. With MIT you can't force retributions back.
It is the main reason for companies to make their code open source, because they anticipate some reciprocation from those who benefit, and thus the benefit is mutual, and might offset the considerable cost of development.
I don't think so. And when they do so, the choose other license. Take the Java case. It is not MIT, but GPL. This is so that MS, IBM and other can't run away with the code with giving back. Again, the license establish the rights and obligations of the receiving party.
And in case you are wondering, the public repository for the community to work towards improving SUnit, Â ( squeaksource/Testing ) does include
#assert:equals:
Keith
Miguel Cobá
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
You are not relating to a licence you are relating to people. A recent review of my contributions to date, indicates that the contribution back rate is less than 1%, why does OSS exist again? Keith
Hey Keith, please stop this whole fighting attitude. In squeak-dev you're fighting vs Andreas, here you're trying to do the same with Stephane. Maybe you don't give a book the same value that source code, but Squeak by example it is as valuable or maybe more than code than others (including you and of course me) are written. Why, because it is the obligated first stop in learning squeak/smalltalk. At least for me it was. This kind of mails don't add anything to the smalltalk arena. Live your life, do your things and let others do that they want (books, code, forks, whatever). Not every people can be measured by your own standards. *I* personally admire you by your code (seaside helpers and installer) and hope someday can write something as useful like that, but these days the mails sent to the list by a lot of squeak/pharo members have exposed others facets not as remarkable as the technical ones of the senders. So, let this whole thing behind and lets continue with the great job *everyone* is doing in his own field. With all respect, Miguel Cobá On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 11:14 AM, Keith Hodges<keith_hodges@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
so I'm laughing when people suggest that we are predators.
I am still counting your contributions back to the packages which you are using, which are public domain, and have public repositories...
answer zero
Keith
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Miguel Cobá wrote:
Hey Keith,
please stop this whole fighting attitude. In squeak-dev you're fighting vs Andreas, here you're trying to do the same with Stephane.
When someone points out a problem or an issue, it doesnt make them the problem. Leveling that attitude is actually abusive in itself. (Ref. The subtle power of spiritual abuse) Andreas, whether intentionally or not misused his position on the board, other board members were condescending and rude. I pointed out the problem, and if it was to persist I would call for their resignation. Pharo continues with a not invented here policy, and has made no attempt to review the code based for projects that could be mutually maintained. This is a problem, and I shall continue to point it out until it is resolved. It's a mindset issue. This is not a fighting attitude, its a pragmatic attitude aiming to help people to avoid wasting their time and effort. Keith
Pharo continues with a not invented here policy, and has made no attempt to review the code based for projects that could be mutually maintained.
I think it is a misanalysis to label that NIH, there are quite different factors contributing to the lack of pushing contributions upstream.
This is a problem, and I shall continue to point it out until it is resolved. It's a mindset issue.
As it happens your timing is unfortunate in that a discussion was just kindled here on which processes and mechanisms to put in place to solve this issue. Unfortunately a lot of messages have been posted here to the effect of making statements without proposing solutions, washing out the original constructive thread.
This is not a fighting attitude, its a pragmatic attitude aiming to help people to avoid wasting their time and effort.
It would help if the balance of the message traffic moved from pointing out problems towards discussing solutions. R -
Reinout Heeck wrote:
Pharo continues with a not invented here policy, and has made no attempt to review the code based for projects that could be mutually maintained.
I think it is a misanalysis to label that NIH, there are quite different factors contributing to the lack of pushing contributions upstream.
Fail to plan, plan to fail?
As it happens your timing is unfortunate in that a discussion was just kindled here on which processes and mechanisms to put in place to solve this issue. Unfortunately a lot of messages have been posted here to the effect of making statements without proposing solutions, washing out the original constructive thread.
It is the fact that proposed solutions have been ignored that brings me to raise these issues. I am not just meaning technical solutions, I primarily mean philosophical and process solutions. I started working on the technical solutions for this very problem 3 years ago with Stephanes encouragement. Finally I am glad that someone is considering looking at it.
This is not a fighting attitude, its a pragmatic attitude aiming to help people to avoid wasting their time and effort.
It would help if the balance of the message traffic moved from pointing out problems towards discussing solutions
I have been discussing solutions all along. Monticello is our bread and butter for exchanging code, we all want it to be better, we all want it to work everywhere. So it is a strategic choice to chose to adopt and contribute to one implementation of Monticello that is being actively maintained (was - since pharo isnt using it I have stopped maintaining it). SUnit is our bread and butter for testing code, we all want it to work, we all want our tests to be compatible accross forks, we all want as many green tests as possible with as few false negatives as possible. Some of us would like to branch out to use SSpec for testing/design purposes. Many of us would like to have an automated test server, with periodic offline testing. www.squeaksource.com/Testing was established to address these very same issues. We want a minimal image, that we can pull things out of and reliably put things back into no matter what image we are using even if it doesnt yet have a GUI. In a multifork world we need to capture the knowledge of what works where, and what patches are needed to make things work where. Sake/Packages was developed for this purpose. I look forward to good things from your discussions. etc etc etc Keith
Pharo continues with a not invented here policy, and has made no attempt to review the code based for projects that could be mutually maintained. This is a problem, and I shall continue to point it out until it is resolved. It's a mindset issue.
I would like to make my point in a different polite way. If you are the maintainer of a package and, in this multi-fork world, you would like to maintain a single test suite for both squeak and pharo, such that all tests run green, then the SUnit in squeaksource.com/Testing may be for you. It was developed for a multi-fork world back in August/Sept 2006. It allows you to categorise which tests you expect to work on which platform and which image version. It is a multi-fork world out there, why not think it through? Keith
I will look at Testing when I have time and see how we can merge our extension. Some people know on this list that my life was extremely frantic (having one hour to relax over the week-end, or fixing my house until 11'oclock after my daily work for example). Stef
Pharo continues with a not invented here policy, and has made no attempt to review the code based for projects that could be mutually maintained. This is a problem, and I shall continue to point it out until it is resolved. It's a mindset issue.
I would like to make my point in a different polite way.
If you are the maintainer of a package and, in this multi-fork world, you would like to maintain a single test suite for both squeak and pharo, such that all tests run green, then the SUnit in squeaksource.com/Testing may be for you.
It was developed for a multi-fork world back in August/Sept 2006. It allows you to categorise which tests you expect to work on which platform and which image version.
It is a multi-fork world out there, why not think it through?
Keith
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
participants (6)
-
Benoit St-Jean -
Keith Hodges -
Michael Roberts -
Miguel Cobá -
Reinout Heeck -
Stéphane Ducasse