[Pharo-project] New User Experience Suggestion for 1.0
Guys - do you think you might consider bringing back the little Readme Workspace in the final 1.0 image (or maybe 1.1)? For new users - the blank screen is a bit intimidating, and with Pharo looking pretty good these days - I think new users are tempted to try it out - however its not easy to get started with a blank screen. I recall ages ago (and maybe this was the old Squeak image) there was a workspace with a few instructions - like the url to launch your web browser against - and a comment with the username and password for administering seaside. It's probably handy to have the url for Pharo by example as well as the Seaside online book. And finally a few doits and tips for launching a Class browser and common preferences to consider changing. I'm not sure if this is easy to do in your distribution script (hopefully it is a script) - and I also don't want to introduce anything risky into 1.0 (I am constantly anxious that some of the changes whizzing by are going into 1.0 - and stability is of the essence to get a good solid release out). But certainly it would make the initial new user experience that little bit better. Tim
+1 It should not be that dangerous, it's only matter of saving an image with a workspace with the text in it. -- Cesar Rabak Em 07/12/2009 21:51, Tim Mackinnon < tamackinnon@gmail.com > escreveu: Guys - do you think you might consider bringing back the little Readme Workspace in the final 1.0 image (or maybe 1.1)? For new users - the blank screen is a bit intimidating, and with Pharo looking pretty good these days - I think new users are tempted to try it out - however its not easy to get started with a blank screen. I recall ages ago (and maybe this was the old Squeak image) there was a workspace with a few instructions - like the url to launch your web browser against - and a comment with the username and password for administering seaside. It's probably handy to have the url for Pharo by example as well as the Seaside online book. And finally a few doits and tips for launching a Class browser and common preferences to consider changing. I'm not sure if this is easy to do in your distribution script (hopefully it is a script) - and I also don't want to introduce anything risky into 1.0 (I am constantly anxious that some of the changes whizzing by are going into 1.0 - and stability is of the essence to get a good solid release out). But certainly it would make the initial new user experience that little bit better. Tim _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
The counter argument is that PBE is readily available and very well written. -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of csrabak@bol.com.br Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:46 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] New User Experience Suggestion for 1.0 +1 It should not be that dangerous, it's only matter of saving an image with a workspace with the text in it. -- Cesar Rabak Em 07/12/2009 21:51, Tim Mackinnon < tamackinnon@gmail.com > escreveu: Guys - do you think you might consider bringing back the little Readme Workspace in the final 1.0 image (or maybe 1.1)? For new users - the blank screen is a bit intimidating, and with Pharo looking pretty good these days - I think new users are tempted to try it out - however its not easy to get started with a blank screen. I recall ages ago (and maybe this was the old Squeak image) there was a workspace with a few instructions - like the url to launch your web browser against - and a comment with the username and password for administering seaside. It's probably handy to have the url for Pharo by example as well as the Seaside online book. And finally a few doits and tips for launching a Class browser and common preferences to consider changing. I'm not sure if this is easy to do in your distribution script (hopefully it is a script) - and I also don't want to introduce anything risky into 1.0 (I am constantly anxious that some of the changes whizzing by are going into 1.0 - and stability is of the essence to get a good solid release out). But certainly it would make the initial new user experience that little bit better. Tim _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
The counter argument is that PBE is readily available and very well written.
It is, but I think it's well worth considering what people think in their first couple of seconds of exposure to a new product - especially something like Smalltalk where people may well be looking at it only from idle curiosity. When I think how quickly and arbitrarily I can reject a game that someone's spent three years sweating blood over... Steve
Interesting analogy given Pharo's roots in something widely (and proudly) considered a toy by its creators. However, a game is simply an entertainment medium, and it either works for you or it does not. A programming language hopefully gets a better look, and one with a free pdf book including a walk-through should be worth a noob's time. That said, a workspace full of examples is fine with me. But I continue to think that we should point people to PBE. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Stephen Taylor Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 10:48 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] New User Experience Suggestion for 1.0 Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
The counter argument is that PBE is readily available and very well written.
It is, but I think it's well worth considering what people think in their first couple of seconds of exposure to a new product - especially something like Smalltalk where people may well be looking at it only from idle curiosity. When I think how quickly and arbitrarily I can reject a game that someone's spent three years sweating blood over... Steve _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
This has to do with learning styles. There was an interesting discussion on the vw or squeak list a few weeks ago about this. One wants something to allow people to choose what fits their learning style in their initial contact. In addtion to Tim's susggestions, a series of videos could also be useful. Regards, Reg
Interesting analogy given Pharo's roots in something widely (and proudly) considered a toy by its creators. However, a game is simply an entertainment medium, and it either works for you or it does not. A programming language hopefully gets a better look, and one with a free pdf book including a walk-through should be worth a noob's time.
That said, a workspace full of examples is fine with me. But I continue to think that we should point people to PBE.
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Stephen Taylor Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 10:48 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] New User Experience Suggestion for 1.0
Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
The counter argument is that PBE is readily available and very well written.
It is, but I think it's well worth considering what people think in their first couple of seconds of exposure to a new product - especially something like Smalltalk where people may well be looking at it only from idle curiosity.
When I think how quickly and arbitrarily I can reject a game that someone's spent three years sweating blood over...
Steve
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Hi guys Please kick my ass :) I should do some new videos.... I will try to do that over christmas. The old ones are here http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/Videos/ Now what would be good is that we get a group of videos One week ago we pairprogram in the train with lukas Stef On Dec 8, 2009, at 5:11 PM, Reg Krock wrote:
This has to do with learning styles. There was an interesting discussion on the vw or squeak list a few weeks ago about this.
One wants something to allow people to choose what fits their learning style in their initial contact. In addtion to Tim's susggestions, a series of videos could also be useful.
Regards,
Reg
Interesting analogy given Pharo's roots in something widely (and proudly) considered a toy by its creators. However, a game is simply an entertainment medium, and it either works for you or it does not. A programming language hopefully gets a better look, and one with a free pdf book including a walk-through should be worth a noob's time.
That said, a workspace full of examples is fine with me. But I continue to think that we should point people to PBE.
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Stephen Taylor Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 10:48 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] New User Experience Suggestion for 1.0
Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
The counter argument is that PBE is readily available and very well written.
It is, but I think it's well worth considering what people think in their first couple of seconds of exposure to a new product - especially something like Smalltalk where people may well be looking at it only from idle curiosity.
When I think how quickly and arbitrarily I can reject a game that someone's spent three years sweating blood over...
Steve
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
People are far more likely to start just by downloading Pharo. Requiring the newbie to go read the book before doing anything isn't very welcoming. On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 10:18 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>wrote:
The counter argument is that PBE is readily available and very well written.
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of csrabak@bol.com.br Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:46 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] New User Experience Suggestion for 1.0
+1
It should not be that dangerous, it's only matter of saving an image with a workspace with the text in it.
-- Cesar Rabak
Em 07/12/2009 21:51, Tim Mackinnon < tamackinnon@gmail.com > escreveu:
Guys - do you think you might consider bringing back the little Readme Workspace in the final 1.0 image (or maybe 1.1)?
For new users - the blank screen is a bit intimidating, and with Pharo looking pretty good these days - I think new users are tempted to try it out - however its not easy to get started with a blank screen.
I recall ages ago (and maybe this was the old Squeak image) there was a workspace with a few instructions - like the url to launch your web browser against - and a comment with the username and password for administering seaside. It's probably handy to have the url for Pharo by example as well as the Seaside online book. And finally a few doits and tips for launching a Class browser and common preferences to consider changing.
I'm not sure if this is easy to do in your distribution script (hopefully it is a script) - and I also don't want to introduce anything risky into 1.0 (I am constantly anxious that some of the changes whizzing by are going into 1.0 - and stability is of the essence to get a good solid release out). But certainly it would make the initial new user experience that little bit better.
Tim _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Hi Tim, On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 12:51 AM, Tim Mackinnon <tamackinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
Guys - do you think you might consider bringing back the little Readme Workspace in the final 1.0 image (or maybe 1.1)?
there is no technical difficulty. Could you please provide a text? I will take care of putting it in a workspace. There may be something in the Pharo wiki already. Thank you -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry
Please note that there is an issue in the tracker that discusses this. I've suggested to add a workspace but do not add a long text and code but link to the pages on the web that contain it so that we can more easily make updates. http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=1479 Tim, would that be helpful for new users of Pharo? Cheers, Adrian On Dec 8, 2009, at 09:23 , Damien Cassou wrote:
Hi Tim,
On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 12:51 AM, Tim Mackinnon <tamackinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
Guys - do you think you might consider bringing back the little Readme Workspace in the final 1.0 image (or maybe 1.1)?
there is no technical difficulty. Could you please provide a text? I will take care of putting it in a workspace. There may be something in the Pharo wiki already.
Thank you
-- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
"Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Adrian, I understand there is some reluctance in adding a "long text" (for the arbitrary definition of 'long'). As a counter argument, I would say that Squeak images are less laconic and two other Smalltalks I'm aware of (VW and ST/X) also carry a more thorough introduction for people who are trying first time. As some others that report working in trains or other places with limited (or none conectivity), it would be nice if we could have an image where the initial tour could be done without need to web access. More often than not, we download a lot of stuff to try it while waiting in some glass doors, airports, etc.! In retrospect, I think the way as Squeak had a welcome.txt or readme.txt that could even be read before launching the application would be a fine addition to our tools to make Pharo more (new) user friendly. my 0.01999... -- Cesar Rabak Em 08/12/2009 06:39, Adrian Lienhard <adi@netstyle.ch> escreveu: Please note that there is an issue in the tracker that discusses this. I've suggested to add a workspace but do not add a long text and code but link to the pages on the web that contain it so that we can more easily make updates. http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=1479 Tim, would that be helpful for new users of Pharo? Cheers, Adrian On Dec 8, 2009, at 09:23 , Damien Cassou wrote:
Hi Tim,
On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 12:51 AM, Tim Mackinnon wrote:
Guys - do you think you might consider bringing back the little Readme Workspace in the final 1.0 image (or maybe 1.1)?
there is no technical difficulty. Could you please provide a text? I will take care of putting it in a workspace. There may be something in the Pharo wiki already.
Thank you
-- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
"Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Can I suggest something like the following (all suggestions welcome - I am trying to have something that is welcoming as well as something that allows people to jump right in and try things, and/or then go to places with more complete documentation like others have suggested): Pharo+Seaside 1.0 RC1 (Title in bold if we can do this like the old Squeak one) Welcome to Pharo + Seaside, a clean, innovative, free and open-source Smalltalk environment aimed at both professional and recreational programmers alike. To get a quick feeling of what is possible with Pharo, open a browser with http://localhost:8080/seaside and explore some of the examples. To administer Seaside, this environment is configured with username: admin and password: seaside If you are curious and want to view some code behind these examples, single click on the background of the main window, choose "Class Browser" and type WACounter. You can then browse the methods for the simple counter and try modifying some of the code, live! If you are new to Smalltalk we recommended that you use this environment and follow the tutorial at http://pharobyexample.org/ Alternatively If you are interested in jumping straight into web development with Pharo and Seaside you can follow the tutorial at http://book.seaside.st/book Finally, have fun with Smalltalk, and make sure you follow the progress of Pharo at http://www.pharo-project.org Tim On 8 Dec 2009, at 08:23, Damien Cassou wrote:
Hi Tim,
On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 12:51 AM, Tim Mackinnon <tamackinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
Guys - do you think you might consider bringing back the little Readme Workspace in the final 1.0 image (or maybe 1.1)?
there is no technical difficulty. Could you please provide a text? I will take care of putting it in a workspace. There may be something in the Pharo wiki already.
Thank you
-- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
"Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
participants (9)
-
Adrian Lienhard -
csrabak＠bol.com.br -
Damien Cassou -
Reg Krock -
Schwab,Wilhelm K -
Sean Allen -
Stephen Taylor -
Stéphane Ducasse -
Tim Mackinnon