[Pharo-project] Sideways marketing of pharo, seaside, etc.
Hey all, I'm in one of my manic brainstorming moods and whilest I'm working on a baby interface between Second Life and Squeak, it dawns on me that there is a huge potential for evangelicalism on your part here: One of hte myriad complains Second LIfe power users have is that the build-in programming tools are extremely limited. There are numerous options for plugins as with Eclipse and emacs (I believe) but they all run as standalone tools with no easy integration with the 3D virtual world experience, which is hte main reason why people bother to script things in SL in the first place: they have interactive feedback with potentialky thousands of other people. The point being that seaside runs just fine on localhost and the builtin SL browser works just fine with everything seaside I have tested. If someone wanted to entice potentially 100,000 Second LIfe users to install seaside, implementing a nice LSL scripting interface in a seaside webpage, complete with syntax coloring, databases of scripts, version control, etc etc, would go a long way toards convincing the Second Life powerusers, at least, that seaside is a worthwhile install. If/when I get my interface to the client-server packets proxy working, one could see potential for many more elaborate uses for squeak/seaside and Second LIfe. (interop between SL and Cobalt/Croquet is left as an exercise for the reader ;-)) Anyway, if someone with a talent for writing editor code wanted to look at the existing external LSL scripting editors and port something to squeak for use on a webpage in seaside, I can almost promise you that squeak/seaside useage would go up by a huge, HUGE factor. Such a project is beyond me, personally due to my lack of formal education, etc., but it should be a worthy project for anyone wishing to promote seaside/smalltalk use. Feel free to ask any questions, privately if appropriate. Lawson English LEnglish5 (at) cox [dot] net Saijanai Kuhn in Second Life
Someone in Second Life gave me this link: http://lslwiki.net/lslwiki/wakka.php?wakka=AlternativeEditors There's a lot more than I expected. Obviously there's a great deal of interest in having alternative Second Life tools hand. Another thought... I know that There's a Squeak-based tool that can produce Second Life sculpties. If that were made a plugin for webpages, and/or enhanced with more pro-level capabilities, that too would almost certainl fly as an integrated Second LIfe tool. Don't know how people would sell this stuff for profit, especially based on Squeak, but there's sufficient interest in higher end tools to keep some people coming back to SL as real world programmers. Here's a little link for 3D tools as well: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Sculpted_Prims:_3d_Software_Guide... SL is debating the move to mesh based stuff as well as prims, so that's an obvious future direction where seaside-based tools would have a distinct advantage, IMHO. L. Lawson English wrote:
[...] Anyway, if someone with a talent for writing editor code wanted to look at the existing external LSL scripting editors and port something to squeak for use on a webpage in seaside, I can almost promise you that squeak/seaside useage would go up by a huge, HUGE factor. Such a project is beyond me, personally due to my lack of formal education, etc., but it should be a worthy project for anyone wishing to promote seaside/smalltalk use.
Feel free to ask any questions, privately if appropriate.
Lawson English LEnglish5 (at) cox [dot] net Saijanai Kuhn in Second Life
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
On Aug 12, 2009, at 2:39 AM, Lawson English wrote:
Hey all, I'm in one of my manic brainstorming moods and whilest I'm working on a baby interface between Second Life and Squeak, it dawns on me that there is a huge potential for evangelicalism on your part here: One of hte myriad complains Second LIfe power users have is that the build-in programming tools are extremely limited. There are numerous options for plugins as with Eclipse and emacs (I believe) but they all run as standalone tools with no easy integration with the 3D virtual world experience, which is hte main reason why people bother to script things in SL in the first place: they have interactive feedback with potentialky thousands of other people.
The point being that seaside runs just fine on localhost and the builtin SL browser works just fine with everything seaside I have tested.
what do you mean by the previous sentence?
If someone wanted to entice potentially 100,000 Second LIfe users to install seaside, implementing a nice LSL scripting interface in a seaside webpage, complete with syntax coloring, databases of scripts, version control, etc etc, would go a long way toards convincing the Second Life powerusers, at least, that seaside is a worthwhile install.
If/when I get my interface to the client-server packets proxy working, one could see potential for many more elaborate uses for squeak/ seaside and Second LIfe.
Keep us informed it looks exciting.
(interop between SL and Cobalt/Croquet is left as an exercise for the reader ;-))
I thought Croquet was dead as an open-source project.
Anyway, if someone with a talent for writing editor code wanted to look at the existing external LSL scripting editors and port something to squeak for use on a webpage in seaside, I can almost promise you that squeak/seaside useage would go up by a huge, HUGE factor. Such a project is beyond me, personally due to my lack of formal education, etc., but it should be a worthy project for anyone wishing to promote seaside/smalltalk use.
May be this is a nice job for helvetia. Lukas? mixing SL in Smalltalk :)
Feel free to ask any questions, privately if appropriate.
Lawson English LEnglish5 (at) cox [dot] net Saijanai Kuhn in Second Life
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Stef, I don't dispute it, but what is this about Croquet being dead? Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 2:22 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr; lenglish5@cox.net Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Sideways marketing of pharo, seaside, etc. On Aug 12, 2009, at 2:39 AM, Lawson English wrote:
Hey all, I'm in one of my manic brainstorming moods and whilest I'm working on a baby interface between Second Life and Squeak, it dawns on me that there is a huge potential for evangelicalism on your part here: One of hte myriad complains Second LIfe power users have is that the build-in programming tools are extremely limited. There are numerous options for plugins as with Eclipse and emacs (I believe) but they all run as standalone tools with no easy integration with the 3D virtual world experience, which is hte main reason why people bother to script things in SL in the first place: they have interactive feedback with potentialky thousands of other people.
The point being that seaside runs just fine on localhost and the builtin SL browser works just fine with everything seaside I have tested.
what do you mean by the previous sentence?
If someone wanted to entice potentially 100,000 Second LIfe users to install seaside, implementing a nice LSL scripting interface in a seaside webpage, complete with syntax coloring, databases of scripts, version control, etc etc, would go a long way toards convincing the Second Life powerusers, at least, that seaside is a worthwhile install.
If/when I get my interface to the client-server packets proxy working, one could see potential for many more elaborate uses for squeak/ seaside and Second LIfe.
Keep us informed it looks exciting.
(interop between SL and Cobalt/Croquet is left as an exercise for the reader ;-))
I thought Croquet was dead as an open-source project.
Anyway, if someone with a talent for writing editor code wanted to look at the existing external LSL scripting editors and port something to squeak for use on a webpage in seaside, I can almost promise you that squeak/seaside useage would go up by a huge, HUGE factor. Such a project is beyond me, personally due to my lack of formal education, etc., but it should be a worthy project for anyone wishing to promote seaside/smalltalk use.
May be this is a nice job for helvetia. Lukas? mixing SL in Smalltalk :)
Feel free to ask any questions, privately if appropriate.
Lawson English LEnglish5 (at) cox [dot] net Saijanai Kuhn in Second Life
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 9:19 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K<bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:
Stef,
I don't dispute it, but what is this about Croquet being dead?
For one, the page http://www.duke.edu/~julian/Cobalt/About.html you can read: *Croquet is no longer under active development And the http://opencroquet.org/ site seems to be not actively maintained. Last news from 2008, all about cobalt. I don't see any that anyone actually claims to be a member of the consortium, either. Not much happening in Cobalt, it seems. I actually wonder if they have anyone on the team with advanced technical knowledge about the deep inner working of Croquet or even just the Squeak parts. All very strange.... I am happy that I am not involved in it or the politics around all this. Looks all very ugly to me. Marcus
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 2:22 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr; lenglish5@cox.net Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Sideways marketing of pharo, seaside, etc.
On Aug 12, 2009, at 2:39 AM, Lawson English wrote:
Hey all, I'm in one of my manic brainstorming moods and whilest I'm working on a baby interface between Second Life and Squeak, it dawns on me that there is a huge potential for evangelicalism on your part here: One of hte myriad complains Second LIfe power users have is that the build-in programming tools are extremely limited. There are numerous options for plugins as with Eclipse and emacs (I believe) but they all run as standalone tools with no easy integration with the 3D virtual world experience, which is hte main reason why people bother to script things in SL in the first place: they have interactive feedback with potentialky thousands of other people.
The point being that seaside runs just fine on localhost and the builtin SL browser works just fine with everything seaside I have tested.
what do you mean by the previous sentence?
If  someone wanted to entice potentially 100,000 Second LIfe users to install seaside, implementing a nice LSL scripting interface in a seaside webpage, complete with syntax coloring, databases of scripts, version control, etc etc, would go a long way toards convincing the Second Life powerusers, at least, that seaside is a worthwhile install.
If/when I get my interface to the client-server packets proxy working, one could see potential for many more elaborate uses for squeak/ seaside and Second LIfe.
Keep us informed it looks exciting.
(interop between SL and Cobalt/Croquet is left as an exercise for the reader ;-))
I thought Croquet was dead as an open-source project.
Anyway, if someone with a talent for writing editor code wanted to look at the existing external LSL scripting editors and port something to squeak for use on a webpage in seaside, I can almost promise you that squeak/seaside useage would go up by a huge, HUGE factor. Such a project is beyond me, personally due to my lack of formal education, etc., but it should be a worthy project for anyone wishing to promote seaside/smalltalk use.
May be this is a nice job for helvetia. Lukas? mixing SL in Smalltalk :)
Feel free to ask any questions, privately if appropriate.
Lawson English LEnglish5 (at) cox [dot] net Saijanai Kuhn in Second Life
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
-- -- Marcus Denker -- denker@acm.org http://www.marcusdenker.de
Aside from http://www.duke.edu/~julian/Cobalt/Foundational_Technology_files/logo_smallt... which strikes me as surpising[*] coming from Smalltalkers, I do not see them running away from Smalltalk. Could it simply be that nobody wanted a 3D OS (Croquet), and that a conferencing tool (Qwaq) seemed viable? I still think Croquet would have been more useful had the 3D rendering system been made more readily reusable, so that one could easily drop a 3D world into a windowed program vs. finding that "we're not in Kansas anymore." Retained mode 3D can be a good thing. Tweak was a mistake too. So far at least, Cobalt appears to be delivering Squeak images, so perhaps this is not a huge slap in the face. My big concern now is for the future of Cog. Any ideas? Eliot seems to be telling us we're going to have a nice Christmas, JIT wise. Here's hoping he is correct. Bill [*] the capitalization is off and there are no connections with the "brand." It is unusual, perhaps even arguably disrespectful to Smalltalk's origins. -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Marcus Denker Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 10:50 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Croquet - was Sideways marketing of pharo, seaside, etc. On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 9:19 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K<bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:
Stef,
I don't dispute it, but what is this about Croquet being dead?
For one, the page http://www.duke.edu/~julian/Cobalt/About.html you can read: *Croquet is no longer under active development And the http://opencroquet.org/ site seems to be not actively maintained. Last news from 2008, all about cobalt. I don't see any that anyone actually claims to be a member of the consortium, either. Not much happening in Cobalt, it seems. I actually wonder if they have anyone on the team with advanced technical knowledge about the deep inner working of Croquet or even just the Squeak parts. All very strange.... I am happy that I am not involved in it or the politics around all this. Looks all very ugly to me. Marcus
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 2:22 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr; lenglish5@cox.net Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Sideways marketing of pharo, seaside, etc.
On Aug 12, 2009, at 2:39 AM, Lawson English wrote:
Hey all, I'm in one of my manic brainstorming moods and whilest I'm working on a baby interface between Second Life and Squeak, it dawns on me that there is a huge potential for evangelicalism on your part here: One of hte myriad complains Second LIfe power users have is that the build-in programming tools are extremely limited. There are numerous options for plugins as with Eclipse and emacs (I believe) but they all run as standalone tools with no easy integration with the 3D virtual world experience, which is hte main reason why people bother to script things in SL in the first place: they have interactive feedback with potentialky thousands of other people.
The point being that seaside runs just fine on localhost and the builtin SL browser works just fine with everything seaside I have tested.
what do you mean by the previous sentence?
If  someone wanted to entice potentially 100,000 Second LIfe users to install seaside, implementing a nice LSL scripting interface in a seaside webpage, complete with syntax coloring, databases of scripts, version control, etc etc, would go a long way toards convincing the Second Life powerusers, at least, that seaside is a worthwhile install.
If/when I get my interface to the client-server packets proxy working, one could see potential for many more elaborate uses for squeak/ seaside and Second LIfe.
Keep us informed it looks exciting.
(interop between SL and Cobalt/Croquet is left as an exercise for the reader ;-))
I thought Croquet was dead as an open-source project.
Anyway, if someone with a talent for writing editor code wanted to look at the existing external LSL scripting editors and port something to squeak for use on a webpage in seaside, I can almost promise you that squeak/seaside useage would go up by a huge, HUGE factor. Such a project is beyond me, personally due to my lack of formal education, etc., but it should be a worthy project for anyone wishing to promote seaside/smalltalk use.
May be this is a nice job for helvetia. Lukas? mixing SL in Smalltalk :)
Feel free to ask any questions, privately if appropriate.
Lawson English LEnglish5 (at) cox [dot] net Saijanai Kuhn in Second Life
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
-- -- Marcus Denker -- denker@acm.org http://www.marcusdenker.de _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
There is almost no traffic on the croquet mailing-list (user+dev) since months ... There seems to be more activity in the OpenCobalt web site : http://opencobalt.org/ On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 5:00 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K<bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:
Aside from
 http://www.duke.edu/~julian/Cobalt/Foundational_Technology_files/logo_smallt...
which strikes me as surpising[*] coming from Smalltalkers, I do not see them running away from Smalltalk.
Could it simply be that nobody wanted a 3D OS (Croquet), and that a conferencing tool (Qwaq) seemed viable? Â I still think Croquet would have been more useful had the 3D rendering system been made more readily reusable, so that one could easily drop a 3D world into a windowed program vs. finding that "we're not in Kansas anymore." Â Retained mode 3D can be a good thing. Â Tweak was a mistake too.
So far at least, Cobalt appears to be delivering Squeak images, so perhaps this is not a huge slap in the face. Â My big concern now is for the future of Cog. Â Any ideas? Â Eliot seems to be telling us we're going to have a nice Christmas, JIT wise. Â Here's hoping he is correct.
Bill
[*] the capitalization is off and there are no connections with the "brand." Â It is unusual, perhaps even arguably disrespectful to Smalltalk's origins.
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Marcus Denker Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 10:50 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Croquet - was Sideways marketing of pharo, seaside, etc.
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 9:19 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K<bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:
Stef,
I don't dispute it, but what is this about Croquet being dead?
For one, the page
http://www.duke.edu/~julian/Cobalt/About.html you can read: *Croquet is no longer under active development
And the http://opencroquet.org/ site seems to be not actively maintained. Last news from 2008, all about cobalt. I don't see any that anyone actually claims to be a member of the consortium, either.
Not much happening in Cobalt, it seems. I actually wonder if they have anyone on the team with advanced technical knowledge about the deep inner working of Croquet or even just the Squeak parts.
All very strange.... I am happy that I am not involved in it or the politics around all this. Looks all very ugly to me.
   Marcus
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 2:22 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr; lenglish5@cox.net Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Sideways marketing of pharo, seaside, etc.
On Aug 12, 2009, at 2:39 AM, Lawson English wrote:
Hey all, I'm in one of my manic brainstorming moods and whilest I'm working on a baby interface between Second Life and Squeak, it dawns on me that there is a huge potential for evangelicalism on your part here: One of hte myriad complains Second LIfe power users have is that the build-in programming tools are extremely limited. There are numerous options for plugins as with Eclipse and emacs (I believe) but they all run as standalone tools with no easy integration with the 3D virtual world experience, which is hte main reason why people bother to script things in SL in the first place: they have interactive feedback with potentialky thousands of other people.
The point being that seaside runs just fine on localhost and the builtin SL browser works just fine with everything seaside I have tested.
what do you mean by the previous sentence?
If  someone wanted to entice potentially 100,000 Second LIfe users to install seaside, implementing a nice LSL scripting interface in a seaside webpage, complete with syntax coloring, databases of scripts, version control, etc etc, would go a long way toards convincing the Second Life powerusers, at least, that seaside is a worthwhile install.
If/when I get my interface to the client-server packets proxy working, one could see potential for many more elaborate uses for squeak/ seaside and Second LIfe.
Keep us informed it looks exciting.
(interop between SL and Cobalt/Croquet is left as an exercise for the reader ;-))
I thought Croquet was dead as an open-source project.
Anyway, if someone with a talent for writing editor code wanted to look at the existing external LSL scripting editors and port something to squeak for use on a webpage in seaside, I can almost promise you that squeak/seaside useage would go up by a huge, HUGE factor. Such a project is beyond me, personally due to my lack of formal education, etc., but it should be a worthy project for anyone wishing to promote seaside/smalltalk use.
May be this is a nice job for helvetia. Lukas? mixing SL in Smalltalk :)
Feel free to ask any questions, privately if appropriate.
Lawson English LEnglish5 (at) cox [dot] net Saijanai Kuhn in Second Life
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
-- -- Marcus Denker  --  denker@acm.org http://www.marcusdenker.de
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-- Serge Stinckwich UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)] http://doesnotunderstand.org/
participants (5)
-
Lawson English -
Marcus Denker -
Schwab,Wilhelm K -
Serge Stinckwich -
Stéphane Ducasse