changing default theme to DarkTheme
Hello guys, I wanted to let you know that we talked at the board and we want to make the DarkTheme a default for Pharo 6.0. This is just because we want to have a visual immediate reference of changing things (yeah, marketing ;) ) Those which still do not like it can still execute Pharo3Theme beCurrent. (in their startup actions, if you want) And everything will be as before. Esteban
Maybe I am alone who do not like the dark theme. But to me it is too late for such change. I am sure there are UI widgets/projects which looks horrible in dark. And people probably test them in pharo 6 before this change. So they will be very surprised. Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes. Anyway settings are recovered at image startup. So I can live with it. 2017-04-14 9:09 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
Hello guys,
I wanted to let you know that we talked at the board and we want to make the DarkTheme a default for Pharo 6.0. This is just because we want to have a visual immediate reference of changing things (yeah, marketing ;) )
Those which still do not like it can still execute
Pharo3Theme beCurrent.
(in their startup actions, if you want)
And everything will be as before.
Esteban
On 14 Apr 2017, at 13:10, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk@gmail.com> wrote:
Maybe I am alone who do not like the dark theme.
you can put a preference to switch it back.
But to me it is too late for such change. I am sure there are UI widgets/projects which looks horrible in dark. And people probably test them in pharo 6 before this change. So they will be very surprised.
no, dark theme is around since 3 years and is very depurated. In fact, many people already use it as they preferred theme.
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes.
no, this is not how it works. We do not vote: most of the decisions are made by consensus and there is also the board who takes some decisions without asking because we pursuit an objective: for example we did not ask anybody if they wanted a new browser, we (the board) decided that Nautilus was not good enough and then we pushed for Calypso.
Anyway settings are recovered at image startup. So I can live with it.
yep, thatâs the idea⦠nothing is irreversible :) Esteban
2017-04-14 9:09 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>>: Hello guys,
I wanted to let you know that we talked at the board and we want to make the DarkTheme a default for Pharo 6.0. This is just because we want to have a visual immediate reference of changing things (yeah, marketing ;) )
Those which still do not like it can still execute
Pharo3Theme beCurrent.
(in their startup actions, if you want)
And everything will be as before.
Esteban
On 14 Apr 2017, at 13:27, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
On 14 Apr 2017, at 13:10, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk@gmail.com <mailto:dionisiydk@gmail.com>> wrote:
Maybe I am alone who do not like the dark theme.
you can put a preference to switch it back.
But to me it is too late for such change. I am sure there are UI widgets/projects which looks horrible in dark. And people probably test them in pharo 6 before this change. So they will be very surprised.
no, dark theme is around since 3 years and is very depurated. In fact, many people already use it as they preferred theme.
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes.
no, this is not how it works. We do not vote: most of the decisions are made by consensus and there is also the board who takes some decisions without asking because we pursuit an objective: for example we did not ask anybody if they wanted a new browser, we (the board) decided that Nautilus was not good enough and then we pushed for Calypso. btw⦠this does not means board decisions are irreversible: everybody can discus it before, during and after changes happens. If we find we were wrong, we can always revert.
Anyway settings are recovered at image startup. So I can live with it.
yep, thatâs the idea⦠nothing is irreversible :)
Esteban
2017-04-14 9:09 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>>: Hello guys,
I wanted to let you know that we talked at the board and we want to make the DarkTheme a default for Pharo 6.0. This is just because we want to have a visual immediate reference of changing things (yeah, marketing ;) )
Those which still do not like it can still execute
Pharo3Theme beCurrent.
(in their startup actions, if you want)
And everything will be as before.
Esteban
2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes.
no, this is not how it works.
yes, it is how it could work :) Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.
On 14 Apr 2017, at 13:44, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk@gmail.com> wrote:
2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>>:
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes.
no, this is not how it works.
yes, it is how it could work :)
Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.
yeah, but is impossible to satisfy everybody⦠specially in non-technical stuff :) Esteban
2017-04-14 13:46 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.
yeah, but is impossible to satisfy everybody⦠specially in non-technical stuff :)
It is important to satisfy majority. And it will be nice for people like me to be sure that we are special :) Now I am sure that I am average person and most of people do not like dark :)
Thats the illusion of people who complain , because they are so vocal , they think they are a majority when actually they are a small minority. I call this "The tyranny of noise". Its in our nature to focus on the noise and ignore the silence. I am a huge supporter of Dark Themes, they are friendlier to the health of the eye and much friendlier to the environment too. Their objective value cannot be questioned. But as always personal taste plays a role here. Whether people prefer more light to dark themes, is difficult to say. Even though most apps come with default light themes, two common patterns emerge. a) White themes are almost non existent (I cannot even recall another app besides Pharo that has a white theme) b) Dark themes are at worst the second preferred choice. I am definitely in favour of "dictatorship/oligarchy" regimes for the leading of open source projects. Democracy is the best political system but it has two huge weakness. It requires the active participation of its members and a high education, hence why it rarely works well. In any case , its a moot point to make in such a customisable environment as Pharo. I am in the middle by the way for those that wonder, I use neither Dark (but I really like it) or White (my eyes hate it with a vengeance) theme and I have made my own custom Blue theme which makes me an extremely tiny minority :D But I was raised with blue and green themes (I hate green themes) so maybe I am biased. In any case a huge thank you to Esteban for dark theme has made coding in Pharo far easier for me :) On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 2:55 PM Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk@gmail.com> wrote:
2017-04-14 13:46 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.
yeah, but is impossible to satisfy everybody⦠specially in non-technical stuff :)
It is important to satisfy majority. And it will be nice for people like me to be sure that we are special :) Now I am sure that I am average person and most of people do not like dark :)
Why not have a "mini-config" sort of splash screen (as Squeak now does) and let the user select? In that mini-config we can proudly announce 10 timesRepeat: [ 'Pharo 6 is out ! (and it is great)'] cheers Nacho ----- Nacho Smalltalker apprentice. Buenos Aires, Argentina. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/changing-default-theme-to-DarkTheme-tp4942038p4942203.... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On 15/04/17 10:19, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
I am a huge supporter of Dark Themes, they are friendlier to the health of the eye and much friendlier to the environment too. Their objective value cannot be questioned. But as always personal taste plays a role here.
All science shows otherwise. Stephan
2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk@gmail.com>:
2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes.
no, this is not how it works.
yes, it is how it could work :)
Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.
I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them. The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with each new Pharo version. Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic Pharo ;) Hernán
Hi Hernan Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy? Inria paid Denis to build a remote tool suite for ***research purpose*** and we discovered that a new remote invocation framework was needed and that they were far too many discussions between the model and the view. Denis proposed to build a new browser (and it was not in our plans) and we decided that we cannot do it otherwise. We could keep this tool for us but we share it with the community. Do you want another example? I asked christopher to build versionner and he discovered that he cannot script well enough the model. And versionner was made for everybody. Now with git we will have to revise it. Do you want another example? Iceberg we payed nicolas passerini to analyse the situation and to build a system that other people can use it. Do you want another example? Esteban got in his face the FFI problem: you see Spur arrives and FFI nabive boost does not so what do we do? He worked like a mad (and it was not planned because we thought that igor would adpta NB to spur then to 64 bits). And the FFI is for everbody. Do you want another example? We spent one year with pavel, guillermo and christophe to make sure that we can make sure that the three yars effort of the phd of guillermo on bootstrap are not lost. Do you want more? All my books are open-source? Do you know how much time I take to write a book? I spent 8 months designing a mooc and do you know how much I earned doing it: 3000 Euros ( so I will make the computation to know how much per hour I lost) and the mooc is free. May be all these examples have no value for you. But for me they have. So you see you can piss on us if it makes you feeling better, and you can rant in your corner. But this is not the vision I have about a community because we are sharing all the things that we are doing. Stef On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:
2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk@gmail.com>:
2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes.
no, this is not how it works.
yes, it is how it could work :)
Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.
I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them.
The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with each new Pharo version. Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic Pharo ;)
Hernán
May be Herman is expressing some level of frustrations resulting from important changes occurring in the system release after release. Your listing of changes may afraid him even more ;-)
From my point of view, Pharo is changing too fast to follow what's up and to adapt code. I am still lagging with Pharo3 on Dr.Geo :) But I am only an amateur programmer, professional programmer may fell just fine with this pace of change.
But anyway, because of its energy and community, Pharo is definitely the best free Smalltalk horse around. Hilaire Le 15/04/2017 à 14:30, Stephane Ducasse a écrit :
Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?
-- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu
Hilaire We are porting Moose in max two days for each version and it is around 150 packages. Now if you want to be able to use Athens then one guy as to fix FFI if you want to use Spur, 64bits..... So such kind of rants are totally useless, counterproductive and our community deserves more. I worked 4 months to write a project proposal to bring money in the community and new people and I may lose all my efforts if the project is not accepted and when I see such kind of behavior. I'm just thinking that it is UNFAIR!!!! Stef On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:04 PM, Hilaire <hilaire@drgeo.eu> wrote:
May be Herman is expressing some level of frustrations resulting from important changes occurring in the system release after release. Your listing of changes may afraid him even more ;-)
From my point of view, Pharo is changing too fast to follow what's up and to adapt code. I am still lagging with Pharo3 on Dr.Geo :) But I am only an amateur programmer, professional programmer may fell just fine with this pace of change.
But anyway, because of its energy and community, Pharo is definitely the best free Smalltalk horse around.
Hilaire
Le 15/04/2017 à 14:30, Stephane Ducasse a écrit :
Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?
-- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu
Life can be very UNFAIR but I don't see how it is related to the previously expressed opinions about what people fell. Le 15/04/2017 à 17:07, Stephane Ducasse a écrit :
behavior. I'm just thinking that it is UNFAIR!!!!
-- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu
Hey Hilaire, Not afraid at all, because I know where the changes come from. Take a look at the SmalltalkHub users/projects and how many contribute back to pharo-dev and you will understand. Hernán 2017-04-15 11:04 GMT-03:00 Hilaire <hilaire@drgeo.eu>:
May be Herman is expressing some level of frustrations resulting from important changes occurring in the system release after release. Your listing of changes may afraid him even more ;-)
From my point of view, Pharo is changing too fast to follow what's up and to adapt code. I am still lagging with Pharo3 on Dr.Geo :) But I am only an amateur programmer, professional programmer may fell just fine with this pace of change.
But anyway, because of its energy and community, Pharo is definitely the best free Smalltalk horse around.
Hilaire
Le 15/04/2017 à 14:30, Stephane Ducasse a écrit :
Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?
-- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu
BTW, if you open the welcome help that users will see after opening of Pharo 6, you will realize, that switching of the theme to white one is matter of one click: WelcomeHelp openForRelease Cheers, -- Pavel 2017-04-15 18:18 GMT+02:00 Hernán Morales Durand <hernan.morales@gmail.com>:
Hey Hilaire,
Not afraid at all, because I know where the changes come from.
Take a look at the SmalltalkHub users/projects and how many contribute back to pharo-dev and you will understand.
Hernán
2017-04-15 11:04 GMT-03:00 Hilaire <hilaire@drgeo.eu>:
May be Herman is expressing some level of frustrations resulting from important changes occurring in the system release after release. Your listing of changes may afraid him even more ;-)
From my point of view, Pharo is changing too fast to follow what's up and to adapt code. I am still lagging with Pharo3 on Dr.Geo :) But I am only an amateur programmer, professional programmer may fell just fine with this pace of change.
But anyway, because of its energy and community, Pharo is definitely the best free Smalltalk horse around.
Hilaire
Le 15/04/2017 à 14:30, Stephane Ducasse a écrit :
Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?
-- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu
I vote for a voting system for these kind of changes. I cannot say it more clearly, and I don't know why is asking for a voting system negative? We all have problems. In the meantime you will make all the changes you like to do, and I will continue working on my own way, until I find there is more voice for the "small minority". 2017-04-15 9:30 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com>:
Hi Hernan
Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?
Inria paid Denis to build a remote tool suite for ***research purpose*** and we discovered that a new remote invocation framework was needed and that they were far too many discussions between the model and the view. Denis proposed to build a new browser (and it was not in our plans) and we decided that we cannot do it otherwise. We could keep this tool for us but we share it with the community.
Do you want another example? I asked christopher to build versionner and he discovered that he cannot script well enough the model. And versionner was made for everybody. Now with git we will have to revise it.
Do you want another example? Iceberg we payed nicolas passerini to analyse the situation and to build a system that other people can use it.
Do you want another example? Esteban got in his face the FFI problem: you see Spur arrives and FFI nabive boost does not so what do we do? He worked like a mad (and it was not planned because we thought that igor would adpta NB to spur then to 64 bits). And the FFI is for everbody.
Do you want another example? We spent one year with pavel, guillermo and christophe to make sure that we can make sure that the three yars effort of the phd of guillermo on bootstrap are not lost.
Do you want more? All my books are open-source? Do you know how much time I take to write a book?
I spent 8 months designing a mooc and do you know how much I earned doing it: 3000 Euros ( so I will make the computation to know how much per hour I lost) and the mooc is free.
May be all these examples have no value for you. But for me they have.
So you see you can piss on us if it makes you feeling better, and you can rant in your corner. But this is not the vision I have about a community because we are sharing all the things that we are doing.
Stef
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:
2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk@gmail.com>:
2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes.
no, this is not how it works.
yes, it is how it could work :)
Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.
I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them.
The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with each new Pharo version. Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic Pharo ;)
Hernán
There is no voting for such default. Why because this is marketing! I do not like the black theme but I find the white one not good either. And we need to have a different look. So you will add a preference script to set it back to white and perfect. I fully agree with Cyril. If one day we set a model it will be the one of avogado and with weight based on contribution. Stef On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:48 PM, Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:
I vote for a voting system for these kind of changes. I cannot say it more clearly, and I don't know why is asking for a voting system negative?
We all have problems. In the meantime you will make all the changes you like to do, and I will continue working on my own way, until I find there is more voice for the "small minority".
2017-04-15 9:30 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com>:
Hi Hernan
Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?
Inria paid Denis to build a remote tool suite for ***research purpose*** and we discovered that a new remote invocation framework was needed and that they were far too many discussions between the model and the view. Denis proposed to build a new browser (and it was not in our plans) and we decided that we cannot do it otherwise. We could keep this tool for us but we share it with the community.
Do you want another example? I asked christopher to build versionner and he discovered that he cannot script well enough the model. And versionner was made for everybody. Now with git we will have to revise it.
Do you want another example? Iceberg we payed nicolas passerini to analyse the situation and to build a system that other people can use it.
Do you want another example? Esteban got in his face the FFI problem: you see Spur arrives and FFI nabive boost does not so what do we do? He worked like a mad (and it was not planned because we thought that igor would adpta NB to spur then to 64 bits). And the FFI is for everbody.
Do you want another example? We spent one year with pavel, guillermo and christophe to make sure that we can make sure that the three yars effort of the phd of guillermo on bootstrap are not lost.
Do you want more? All my books are open-source? Do you know how much time I take to write a book?
I spent 8 months designing a mooc and do you know how much I earned doing it: 3000 Euros ( so I will make the computation to know how much per hour I lost) and the mooc is free.
May be all these examples have no value for you. But for me they have.
So you see you can piss on us if it makes you feeling better, and you can rant in your corner. But this is not the vision I have about a community because we are sharing all the things that we are doing.
Stef
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:
2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk@gmail.com>:
2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes.
no, this is not how it works.
yes, it is how it could work :)
Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.
I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them.
The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with each new Pharo version. Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic Pharo ;)
Hernán
Bah, I made GTSpotter dark theme work with SublimishTheme and got the "yeah, for Pharo7". It is pissing me off but what can I say, just follow what is released. Compare Pharo 1 and Pharo 6. Worlds apart. I hope this continues. Phil On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:48 PM, Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:
I vote for a voting system for these kind of changes. I cannot say it more clearly, and I don't know why is asking for a voting system negative?
We all have problems. In the meantime you will make all the changes you like to do, and I will continue working on my own way, until I find there is more voice for the "small minority".
2017-04-15 9:30 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com>:
Hi Hernan
Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?
Inria paid Denis to build a remote tool suite for ***research purpose*** and we discovered that a new remote invocation framework was needed and that they were far too many discussions between the model and the view. Denis proposed to build a new browser (and it was not in our plans) and we decided that we cannot do it otherwise. We could keep this tool for us but we share it with the community.
Do you want another example? I asked christopher to build versionner and he discovered that he cannot script well enough the model. And versionner was made for everybody. Now with git we will have to revise it.
Do you want another example? Iceberg we payed nicolas passerini to analyse the situation and to build a system that other people can use it.
Do you want another example? Esteban got in his face the FFI problem: you see Spur arrives and FFI nabive boost does not so what do we do? He worked like a mad (and it was not planned because we thought that igor would adpta NB to spur then to 64 bits). And the FFI is for everbody.
Do you want another example? We spent one year with pavel, guillermo and christophe to make sure that we can make sure that the three yars effort of the phd of guillermo on bootstrap are not lost.
Do you want more? All my books are open-source? Do you know how much time I take to write a book?
I spent 8 months designing a mooc and do you know how much I earned doing it: 3000 Euros ( so I will make the computation to know how much per hour I lost) and the mooc is free.
May be all these examples have no value for you. But for me they have.
So you see you can piss on us if it makes you feeling better, and you can rant in your corner. But this is not the vision I have about a community because we are sharing all the things that we are doing.
Stef
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:
2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk@gmail.com>:
2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes.
no, this is not how it works.
yes, it is how it could work :)
Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.
I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them.
The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with each new Pharo version. Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic Pharo ;)
Hernán
Isn't a couple days before release a bit late to change the default theme ? Aren't we in feature freeze mode ? If for marketing it makes sense to switch to the dark theme, then let's switch to dark theme. But why not switching for Pharo 7 instead ? Instability is bad for marketing anyway, isn't it ? I don't mind for myself, I will always switch back with user settings to the light theme it's more about the general perception of Pharo stability. On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 11:31 AM, phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be> wrote:
Bah, I made GTSpotter dark theme work with SublimishTheme and got the "yeah, for Pharo7".
It is pissing me off but what can I say, just follow what is released.
Compare Pharo 1 and Pharo 6. Worlds apart. I hope this continues.
Phil
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:48 PM, Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:
I vote for a voting system for these kind of changes. I cannot say it more clearly, and I don't know why is asking for a voting system negative?
We all have problems. In the meantime you will make all the changes you like to do, and I will continue working on my own way, until I find there is more voice for the "small minority".
2017-04-15 9:30 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com>:
Hi Hernan
Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?
Inria paid Denis to build a remote tool suite for ***research purpose*** and we discovered that a new remote invocation framework was needed and that they were far too many discussions between the model and the view. Denis proposed to build a new browser (and it was not in our plans) and we decided that we cannot do it otherwise. We could keep this tool for us but we share it with the community.
Do you want another example? I asked christopher to build versionner and he discovered that he cannot script well enough the model. And versionner was made for everybody. Now with git we will have to revise it.
Do you want another example? Iceberg we payed nicolas passerini to analyse the situation and to build a system that other people can use it.
Do you want another example? Esteban got in his face the FFI problem: you see Spur arrives and FFI nabive boost does not so what do we do? He worked like a mad (and it was not planned because we thought that igor would adpta NB to spur then to 64 bits). And the FFI is for everbody.
Do you want another example? We spent one year with pavel, guillermo and christophe to make sure that we can make sure that the three yars effort of the phd of guillermo on bootstrap are not lost.
Do you want more? All my books are open-source? Do you know how much time I take to write a book?
I spent 8 months designing a mooc and do you know how much I earned doing it: 3000 Euros ( so I will make the computation to know how much per hour I lost) and the mooc is free.
May be all these examples have no value for you. But for me they have.
So you see you can piss on us if it makes you feeling better, and you can rant in your corner. But this is not the vision I have about a community because we are sharing all the things that we are doing.
Stef
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:
2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk@gmail.com>:
2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes.
no, this is not how it works.
yes, it is how it could work :)
Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.
I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them.
The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with each new Pharo version. Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic Pharo ;)
Hernán
clement esteban is using the dark theme since several years!!!! phil too. No new code! On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 12:35 AM, Clément Bera <bera.clement@gmail.com> wrote:
Isn't a couple days before release a bit late to change the default theme ? Aren't we in feature freeze mode ?
If for marketing it makes sense to switch to the dark theme, then let's switch to dark theme. But why not switching for Pharo 7 instead ? Instability is bad for marketing anyway, isn't it ?
I don't mind for myself, I will always switch back with user settings to the light theme it's more about the general perception of Pharo stability.
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 11:31 AM, phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be> wrote:
Bah, I made GTSpotter dark theme work with SublimishTheme and got the "yeah, for Pharo7".
It is pissing me off but what can I say, just follow what is released.
Compare Pharo 1 and Pharo 6. Worlds apart. I hope this continues.
Phil
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:48 PM, Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:
I vote for a voting system for these kind of changes. I cannot say it more clearly, and I don't know why is asking for a voting system negative?
We all have problems. In the meantime you will make all the changes you like to do, and I will continue working on my own way, until I find there is more voice for the "small minority".
2017-04-15 9:30 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com>:
Hi Hernan
Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?
Inria paid Denis to build a remote tool suite for ***research purpose*** and we discovered that a new remote invocation framework was needed and that they were far too many discussions between the model and the view. Denis proposed to build a new browser (and it was not in our plans) and we decided that we cannot do it otherwise. We could keep this tool for us but we share it with the community.
Do you want another example? I asked christopher to build versionner and he discovered that he cannot script well enough the model. And versionner was made for everybody. Now with git we will have to revise it.
Do you want another example? Iceberg we payed nicolas passerini to analyse the situation and to build a system that other people can use it.
Do you want another example? Esteban got in his face the FFI problem: you see Spur arrives and FFI nabive boost does not so what do we do? He worked like a mad (and it was not planned because we thought that igor would adpta NB to spur then to 64 bits). And the FFI is for everbody.
Do you want another example? We spent one year with pavel, guillermo and christophe to make sure that we can make sure that the three yars effort of the phd of guillermo on bootstrap are not lost.
Do you want more? All my books are open-source? Do you know how much time I take to write a book?
I spent 8 months designing a mooc and do you know how much I earned doing it: 3000 Euros ( so I will make the computation to know how much per hour I lost) and the mooc is free.
May be all these examples have no value for you. But for me they have.
So you see you can piss on us if it makes you feeling better, and you can rant in your corner. But this is not the vision I have about a community because we are sharing all the things that we are doing.
Stef
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:
2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk@gmail.com>:
2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes.
no, this is not how it works.
yes, it is how it could work :)
Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.
I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them.
The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with each new Pharo version. Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic Pharo ;)
Hernán
Me too, even my blue theme is nothing more than a customization of dark theme. Plus dark theme is based on darcula dark theme which is by far the most popular dark theme out there. On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 at 14:27, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com> wrote:
clement esteban is using the dark theme since several years!!!! phil too. No new code!
On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 12:35 AM, Clément Bera <bera.clement@gmail.com> wrote:
Isn't a couple days before release a bit late to change the default theme ? Aren't we in feature freeze mode ?
If for marketing it makes sense to switch to the dark theme, then let's switch to dark theme. But why not switching for Pharo 7 instead ? Instability is bad for marketing anyway, isn't it ?
I don't mind for myself, I will always switch back with user settings to the light theme it's more about the general perception of Pharo stability.
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 11:31 AM, phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be> wrote:
Bah, I made GTSpotter dark theme work with SublimishTheme and got the "yeah, for Pharo7".
It is pissing me off but what can I say, just follow what is released.
Compare Pharo 1 and Pharo 6. Worlds apart. I hope this continues.
Phil
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:48 PM, Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:
I vote for a voting system for these kind of changes. I cannot say it more clearly, and I don't know why is asking for a voting system negative?
We all have problems. In the meantime you will make all the changes you like to do, and I will continue working on my own way, until I find there is more voice for the "small minority".
2017-04-15 9:30 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com>:
Hi Hernan
Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?
Inria paid Denis to build a remote tool suite for ***research purpose*** and we discovered that a new remote invocation framework was needed and that they were far too many discussions between the model and the view. Denis proposed to build a new browser (and it was not in our plans) and we decided that we cannot do it otherwise. We could keep this tool for us but we share it with the community.
Do you want another example? I asked christopher to build versionner and he discovered that he cannot script well enough the model. And versionner was made for everybody. Now with git we will have to revise it.
Do you want another example? Iceberg we payed nicolas passerini to analyse the situation and to build a system that other people can use it.
Do you want another example? Esteban got in his face the FFI problem: you see Spur arrives and FFI nabive boost does not so what do we do? He worked like a mad (and it was not planned because we thought that igor would adpta NB to spur then to 64 bits). And the FFI is for everbody.
Do you want another example? We spent one year with pavel, guillermo and christophe to make sure that we can make sure that the three yars effort of the phd of guillermo on bootstrap are not lost.
Do you want more? All my books are open-source? Do you know how much time I take to write a book?
I spent 8 months designing a mooc and do you know how much I earned doing it: 3000 Euros ( so I will make the computation to know how much per hour I lost) and the mooc is free.
May be all these examples have no value for you. But for me they have.
So you see you can piss on us if it makes you feeling better, and you can rant in your corner. But this is not the vision I have about a community because we are sharing all the things that we are doing.
Stef
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:
2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk@gmail.com>:
2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes.
no, this is not how it works.
yes, it is how it could work :)
Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.
I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them.
The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with each new Pharo version. Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic Pharo ;)
Hernán
did you publish the blue theme as an autonomous package? On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
Me too, even my blue theme is nothing more than a customization of dark theme. Plus dark theme is based on darcula dark theme which is by far the most popular dark theme out there. On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 at 14:27, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com> wrote:
clement esteban is using the dark theme since several years!!!! phil too. No new code!
On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 12:35 AM, Clément Bera <bera.clement@gmail.com> wrote:
Isn't a couple days before release a bit late to change the default theme ? Aren't we in feature freeze mode ?
If for marketing it makes sense to switch to the dark theme, then let's switch to dark theme. But why not switching for Pharo 7 instead ? Instability is bad for marketing anyway, isn't it ?
I don't mind for myself, I will always switch back with user settings to the light theme it's more about the general perception of Pharo stability.
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 11:31 AM, phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be
wrote:
Bah, I made GTSpotter dark theme work with SublimishTheme and got the "yeah, for Pharo7".
It is pissing me off but what can I say, just follow what is released.
Compare Pharo 1 and Pharo 6. Worlds apart. I hope this continues.
Phil
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:48 PM, Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:
I vote for a voting system for these kind of changes. I cannot say it more clearly, and I don't know why is asking for a voting system negative?
We all have problems. In the meantime you will make all the changes you like to do, and I will continue working on my own way, until I find there is more voice for the "small minority".
2017-04-15 9:30 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com>:
Hi Hernan
Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?
Inria paid Denis to build a remote tool suite for ***research purpose*** and we discovered that a new remote invocation framework was needed and that they were far too many discussions between the model and the view. Denis proposed to build a new browser (and it was not in our plans) and we decided that we cannot do it otherwise. We could keep this tool for us but we share it with the community.
Do you want another example? I asked christopher to build versionner and he discovered that he cannot script well enough the model. And versionner was made for everybody. Now with git we will have to revise it.
Do you want another example? Iceberg we payed nicolas passerini to analyse the situation and to build a system that other people can use it.
Do you want another example? Esteban got in his face the FFI problem: you see Spur arrives and FFI nabive boost does not so what do we do? He worked like a mad (and it was not planned because we thought that igor would adpta NB to spur then to 64 bits). And the FFI is for everbody.
Do you want another example? We spent one year with pavel, guillermo and christophe to make sure that we can make sure that the three yars effort of the phd of guillermo on bootstrap are not lost.
Do you want more? All my books are open-source? Do you know how much time I take to write a book?
I spent 8 months designing a mooc and do you know how much I earned doing it: 3000 Euros ( so I will make the computation to know how much per hour I lost) and the mooc is free.
May be all these examples have no value for you. But for me they have.
So you see you can piss on us if it makes you feeling better, and you can rant in your corner. But this is not the vision I have about a community because we are sharing all the things that we are doing.
Stef
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:
2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk@gmail.com>:
2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes.
no, this is not how it works.
yes, it is how it could work :)
Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.
I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them.
The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with each new Pharo version. Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic Pharo ;)
Hernán
Yes it's actually more than that. It's called Nireas and I think it's the only theme that comes with its own GUI that allows to customize its colors , so it's very flexible. It's available at Package Browser On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 at 21:53, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com> wrote:
did you publish the blue theme as an autonomous package?
On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
Me too, even my blue theme is nothing more than a customization of dark theme. Plus dark theme is based on darcula dark theme which is by far the most popular dark theme out there. On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 at 14:27, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com> wrote:
clement esteban is using the dark theme since several years!!!! phil too. No new code!
On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 12:35 AM, Clément Bera <bera.clement@gmail.com> wrote:
Isn't a couple days before release a bit late to change the default theme ? Aren't we in feature freeze mode ?
If for marketing it makes sense to switch to the dark theme, then let's switch to dark theme. But why not switching for Pharo 7 instead ? Instability is bad for marketing anyway, isn't it ?
I don't mind for myself, I will always switch back with user settings to the light theme it's more about the general perception of Pharo stability.
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 11:31 AM, phil@highoctane.be < phil@highoctane.be> wrote:
Bah, I made GTSpotter dark theme work with SublimishTheme and got the "yeah, for Pharo7".
It is pissing me off but what can I say, just follow what is released.
Compare Pharo 1 and Pharo 6. Worlds apart. I hope this continues.
Phil
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:48 PM, Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:
I vote for a voting system for these kind of changes. I cannot say it more clearly, and I don't know why is asking for a voting system negative?
We all have problems. In the meantime you will make all the changes you like to do, and I will continue working on my own way, until I find there is more voice for the "small minority".
2017-04-15 9:30 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com>:
Hi Hernan
Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?
Inria paid Denis to build a remote tool suite for ***research purpose*** and we discovered that a new remote invocation framework was needed and that they were far too many discussions between the model and the view. Denis proposed to build a new browser (and it was not in our plans) and we decided that we cannot do it otherwise. We could keep this tool for us but we share it with the community.
Do you want another example? I asked christopher to build versionner and he discovered that he cannot script well enough the model. And versionner was made for everybody. Now with git we will have to revise it.
Do you want another example? Iceberg we payed nicolas passerini to analyse the situation and to build a system that other people can use it.
Do you want another example? Esteban got in his face the FFI problem: you see Spur arrives and FFI nabive boost does not so what do we do? He worked like a mad (and it was not planned because we thought that igor would adpta NB to spur then to 64 bits). And the FFI is for everbody.
Do you want another example? We spent one year with pavel, guillermo and christophe to make sure that we can make sure that the three yars effort of the phd of guillermo on bootstrap are not lost.
Do you want more? All my books are open-source? Do you know how much time I take to write a book?
I spent 8 months designing a mooc and do you know how much I earned doing it: 3000 Euros ( so I will make the computation to know how much per hour I lost) and the mooc is free.
May be all these examples have no value for you. But for me they have.
So you see you can piss on us if it makes you feeling better, and you can rant in your corner. But this is not the vision I have about a community because we are sharing all the things that we are doing.
Stef
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:
2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk@gmail.com>:
2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> :
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes.
no, this is not how it works.
yes, it is how it could work :)
Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.
I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them.
The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with each new Pharo version. Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic Pharo ;)
Hernán
On 16/04/17 13:26, Stephane Ducasse wrote:
clement esteban is using the dark theme since several years!!!! phil too. No new code!
Sorry, but that does not make sense to me. I've only heard complaints about dependent projects not honoring theme color settings, and I've never been able to switch themes actually work without leaving artifacts behind. I agree it makes sense to fix that, and I'm all in favor of temporarily switching default to black in 7. I strongly oppose switching themes now. Stephan
On 16/04/2017 20:31, Stephan Eggermont wrote:
Sorry, but that does not make sense to me. I've only heard complaints about dependent projects not honoring theme color settings, and I've never been able to switch themes actually work without leaving artifacts behind. I agree it makes sense to fix that, and I'm all in favor of temporarily switching default to black in 7. I strongly oppose switching themes now.
Stephan
Hi, There is still some glitches on theme change but most of them have been corrected in Pharo 6. Also, I use the dark theme since almost two years and I don't remember having problems. Do you have examples? And last, when a new version of a programming language is out, we do not expect all applications to be up to date with the language at the time of the release. -- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr http://www.synectique.eu 2 rue Jacques Prévert 01, 59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France
On 16/04/17 20:53, Cyril Ferlicot D. wrote:
And last, when a new version of a programming language is out, we do not expect all applications to be up to date with the language at the time of the release.
We do not break things a week before the release. We break them a week after the release. Otherwise, why bother. Stephan
On 16/04/2017 23:13, Stephan Eggermont wrote:
We do not break things a week before the release. We break them a week after the release. Otherwise, why bother.
Stephan
As I asked in my previous mail, what is broken? In Pharo 4 there is broken things. In Pharo 6 I don't see what is broken. Maybe that if we see that there is indeed things broken that you can list it will wait P7. For now I see 0 issue on dark theme on fogbugz. -- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr http://www.synectique.eu 2 rue Jacques Prévert 01, 59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France
On 16/04/17 23:27, Cyril Ferlicot D. wrote:
On 16/04/2017 23:13, Stephan Eggermont wrote:
We do not break things a week before the release. We break them a week after the release. Otherwise, why bother.
Stephan
As I asked in my previous mail, what is broken?
There are 214 instances of the text 'Color white' and 210 of 'Color black' in a 60450 image. Moose images have 1.5 to 2 as many Stephan
On 16/04/17 20:53, Cyril Ferlicot D. wrote:
Also, I use the dark theme since almost two years and I don't remember having problems. Do you have examples?
Within two minutes I found a non-themed visualization in Moose. The switching works a lot better than last time I looked at dark theme. Stephan
Totally agree Phil even on the documentation front we are light years ahead of version 2. I think it will become a problem that Pharo improves to fast, but that's a blessing problem.kudos to the amazing work of Pharo devs . On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 at 21:32, phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be> wrote:
Bah, I made GTSpotter dark theme work with SublimishTheme and got the "yeah, for Pharo7".
It is pissing me off but what can I say, just follow what is released.
Compare Pharo 1 and Pharo 6. Worlds apart. I hope this continues.
Phil
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:48 PM, Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:
I vote for a voting system for these kind of changes. I cannot say it more clearly, and I don't know why is asking for a voting system negative?
We all have problems. In the meantime you will make all the changes you like to do, and I will continue working on my own way, until I find there is more voice for the "small minority".
2017-04-15 9:30 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com>:
Hi Hernan
Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?
Inria paid Denis to build a remote tool suite for ***research purpose*** and we discovered that a new remote invocation framework was needed and that they were far too many discussions between the model and the view. Denis proposed to build a new browser (and it was not in our plans) and we decided that we cannot do it otherwise. We could keep this tool for us but we share it with the community.
Do you want another example? I asked christopher to build versionner and he discovered that he cannot script well enough the model. And versionner was made for everybody. Now with git we will have to revise it.
Do you want another example? Iceberg we payed nicolas passerini to analyse the situation and to build a system that other people can use it.
Do you want another example? Esteban got in his face the FFI problem: you see Spur arrives and FFI nabive boost does not so what do we do? He worked like a mad (and it was not planned because we thought that igor would adpta NB to spur then to 64 bits). And the FFI is for everbody.
Do you want another example? We spent one year with pavel, guillermo and christophe to make sure that we can make sure that the three yars effort of the phd of guillermo on bootstrap are not lost.
Do you want more? All my books are open-source? Do you know how much time I take to write a book?
I spent 8 months designing a mooc and do you know how much I earned doing it: 3000 Euros ( so I will make the computation to know how much per hour I lost) and the mooc is free.
May be all these examples have no value for you. But for me they have.
So you see you can piss on us if it makes you feeling better, and you can rant in your corner. But this is not the vision I have about a community because we are sharing all the things that we are doing.
Stef
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:
2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk@gmail.com>:
2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes.
no, this is not how it works.
yes, it is how it could work :)
Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.
I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them.
The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with each new Pharo version. Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic Pharo ;)
Hernán
A final point I cannot work with the dark theme. But the interest of Pharo is more important that own little ego. I will try and put a preference if I fail. Why because we need to have a different look for the version and I proposed this change!!!!!! Stef On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:
2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk@gmail.com>:
2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes.
no, this is not how it works.
yes, it is how it could work :)
Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.
I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them.
The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with each new Pharo version. Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic Pharo ;)
Hernán
2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
But to me it is too late for such change. I am sure there are UI widgets/projects which looks horrible in dark. And people probably test them in pharo 6 before this change. So they will be very surprised.
no, dark theme is around since 3 years and is very depurated. In fact, many people already use it as they preferred theme.
Just open any project with Versioner. Symbolic versions are in green oval with white label. It is almost unreadable. Do you remember how many times Steph complains about style of current white theme? I am sure he not deeply look into dark.
2017-04-14 13:48 GMT+02:00 Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk@gmail.com>:
2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
But to me it is too late for such change. I am sure there are UI widgets/projects which looks horrible in dark. And people probably test them in pharo 6 before this change. So they will be very surprised.
no, dark theme is around since 3 years and is very depurated. In fact, many people already use it as they preferred theme.
Just open any project with Versioner. Symbolic versions are in green oval with white label. It is almost unreadable.
Let's be constructive :-) https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19935/Versionner-tags-are-unreadable-in-th...
Do you remember how many times Steph complains about style of current white theme? I am sure he not deeply look into dark.
tx pavel! We need a look that we can identify pharo 60 as pharo 60 :) On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 2:42 PM, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com> wrote:
2017-04-14 13:48 GMT+02:00 Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk@gmail.com>:
2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
But to me it is too late for such change. I am sure there are UI widgets/projects which looks horrible in dark. And people probably test them in pharo 6 before this change. So they will be very surprised.
no, dark theme is around since 3 years and is very depurated. In fact, many people already use it as they preferred theme.
Just open any project with Versioner. Symbolic versions are in green oval with white label. It is almost unreadable.
Let's be constructive :-) https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19935/Versionner-tags- are-unreadable-in-the-dark-theme
Do you remember how many times Steph complains about style of current white theme? I am sure he not deeply look into dark.
Personally I'm not adverse to this switch even though I've not used the dark theme much, but as devils advocate a few questions arise. a. How will you make Pharo 7/8/9/etc visually distinct? a1. *cough* Switch back to white theme? a2. How much visual distinction is required? a3. Would it be easier to continually alter... background Pharo logo background colour / pattern titlebar icons, font, colour b. What are the considerations of effect on documentation? b1. PBE b2. mooc c. Will this have adequate testing? c1. Its a late change with significant impact to first impressions c2. I understand that some people have been using it a lot, but they may have narrow environments. For example, enabling the Dark theme, on my laptop with brightness turned down, I find it disconcerting that I can't distinguish where title bars run into each other. https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19941/Dark-Theme-overlapped-title-bars-nee... cheers -ben P.S. I'm travelling so I can't work on this myself for a few days. On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:23 AM, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com> wrote:
tx pavel! We need a look that we can identify pharo 60 as pharo 60 :)
On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 2:42 PM, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com> wrote:
2017-04-14 13:48 GMT+02:00 Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk@gmail.com>:
2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
But to me it is too late for such change. I am sure there are UI widgets/projects which looks horrible in dark. And people probably test them in pharo 6 before this change. So they will be very surprised.
no, dark theme is around since 3 years and is very depurated. In fact, many people already use it as they preferred theme.
Just open any project with Versioner. Symbolic versions are in green oval with white label. It is almost unreadable.
Let's be constructive :-)
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19935/Versionner-tags-are-unreadable-in-th...
Do you remember how many times Steph complains about style of current white theme? I am sure he not deeply look into dark.
On Apr 14, 2017 14:11, "Denis Kudriashov" <dionisiydk@gmail.com> wrote: Maybe I am alone who do not like the dark theme. I'm also a fan of the white team. Can't really use the dark one. Cheers, Andrei But to me it is too late for such change. I am sure there are UI widgets/projects which looks horrible in dark. And people probably test them in pharo 6 before this change. So they will be very surprised. Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes. Anyway settings are recovered at image startup. So I can live with it. 2017-04-14 9:09 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
Hello guys,
I wanted to let you know that we talked at the board and we want to make the DarkTheme a default for Pharo 6.0. This is just because we want to have a visual immediate reference of changing things (yeah, marketing ;) )
Those which still do not like it can still execute
Pharo3Theme beCurrent.
(in their startup actions, if you want)
And everything will be as before.
Esteban
On 14/04/17 09:09, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
I wanted to let you know that we talked at the board and we want to make the DarkTheme a default for Pharo 6.0. This is just because we want to have a visual immediate reference of changing things (yeah, marketing ;) )
No. Please revert that decision. It is too late. You can try that for 7, and then have the discussions, but not for 6. Stephan
On 15 Apr 2017, at 13:41, Stephan Eggermont <stephan@stack.nl> wrote:
On 14/04/17 09:09, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
I wanted to let you know that we talked at the board and we want to make the DarkTheme a default for Pharo 6.0. This is just because we want to have a visual immediate reference of changing things (yeah, marketing ;) )
No. Please revert that decision. It is too late. You can try that for 7, and then have the discussions, but not for 6.
Why would it be too late ? Many, many people (myself included) have used the current Dark Theme for years, it just works (modulo some minor problems). It is a matter of taste, of course, but after 5 major releases with White Themes, an alternative is more than welcome. Sven
On 15/04/17 13:48, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
It is a matter of taste, of course, but after 5 major releases with White Themes, an alternative is more than welcome.
Mostly because it is not a matter of taste. For most people (there are several eye problems where it is not the case), a dark on light theme is better. The exceptions are well known (keeping night vision, photo/video processing, a room that is too dark), but there is no reason at all to make a dark theme default Stephan
Le 15/04/2017 à 14:23, Stephan Eggermont a écrit :
On 15/04/17 13:48, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
It is a matter of taste, of course, but after 5 major releases with White Themes, an alternative is more than welcome.
Mostly because it is not a matter of taste. For most people (there are several eye problems where it is not the case), a dark on light theme is better. The exceptions are well known (keeping night vision, photo/video processing, a room that is too dark), but there is no reason at all to make a dark theme default
Stephan
It's even better. With it as default more people will report issues. -- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr http://www.synectique.eu 2 rue Jacques Prévert 01, 59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France
Make it default so that it will bother people enough to fix the glitches. Phil On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 1:48 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
On 15 Apr 2017, at 13:41, Stephan Eggermont <stephan@stack.nl> wrote:
On 14/04/17 09:09, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
I wanted to let you know that we talked at the board and we want to make the DarkTheme a default for Pharo 6.0. This is just because we want to have a visual immediate reference of changing things (yeah, marketing ;) )
No. Please revert that decision. It is too late. You can try that for 7, and then have the discussions, but not for 6.
Why would it be too late ?
Many, many people (myself included) have used the current Dark Theme for years, it just works (modulo some minor problems).
It is a matter of taste, of course, but after 5 major releases with White Themes, an alternative is more than welcome.
Sven
On 15/04/17 14:43, phil@highoctane.be wrote:
Make it default so that it will bother people enough to fix the glitches.
That is fine to do for half a year starting with Pharo 7. I'm all in favor of making changes in development that help us improve. It is definitely not a good idea to make sure that no external project looks good at the release of Pharo 6, and make life worse for 80% of developers. Released version needs to be a light theme. In development we can switch for a while Stephan
Wow guys seriously it's a setting , not the end of the world . Completely agree with Cyril , I find white theme terrible and I never imagined making such a big fuss for a setting. You guys need to chill out. Lol at Phil , funny and true. On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 at 15:45, phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be> wrote:
Make it default so that it will bother people enough to fix the glitches.
Phil
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 1:48 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
On 15 Apr 2017, at 13:41, Stephan Eggermont <stephan@stack.nl> wrote:
On 14/04/17 09:09, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
I wanted to let you know that we talked at the board and we want to make the DarkTheme a default for Pharo 6.0. This is just because we want to have a visual immediate reference of changing things (yeah, marketing ;) )
No. Please revert that decision. It is too late. You can try that for 7, and then have the discussions, but not for 6.
Why would it be too late ?
Many, many people (myself included) have used the current Dark Theme for years, it just works (modulo some minor problems).
It is a matter of taste, of course, but after 5 major releases with White Themes, an alternative is more than welcome.
Sven
Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
--94eb2c190338e56e92054d34764f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Wow guys seriously it's a setting , not the end of the world . Completely agree with Cyril , I find white theme terrible and I never imagined making such a big fuss for a setting.
The mooc anmd other documentation show the white theme. So when new users start they see the documentation is wrong - so IMMEDIATELY have a problem
You guys need to chill out.
-- Mark
Not before IMMEDIATELY realizing that all screenshots containing the white theme are outdated and will IMMEDIATELY prefer the dark ones that will have an updated view of the Pharo GUI compared to a screenshot that has the white theme and it's outdated by two or more years. Updating the screenshots for PBE5 was a big pain and I am sure there are ones that are left that are still outdated showing 1.4 , which is at least 6 years old. At some point we will have to automate the whole process with the documentation. Which is why I am implementing a new in image interactive documentation system QA tooltip based I call Prometheas using a online PostgreSQL database that will make it unnecessary to have to download the latest Pharo to get latest documentation. As long as you are online you will have direct access to latest documentation. It won't replace the online HTML/PDF docs but it will provide a quick and dirty way to fetch and create documentation in image. On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 at 12:46, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
--94eb2c190338e56e92054d34764f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Wow guys seriously it's a setting , not the end of the world . Completely agree with Cyril , I find white theme terrible and I never imagined making such a big fuss for a setting.
The mooc anmd other documentation show the white theme.
So when new users start they see the documentation is wrong - so IMMEDIATELY have a problem
You guys need to chill out.
-- Mark
Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
--001a113a8620c74f7a054d5aba55 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Not before IMMEDIATELY realizing that all screenshots containing the white theme are outdated and will IMMEDIATELY prefer the dark ones that will have an updated view of the Pharo GUI compared to a screenshot that has the white theme and it's outdated by two or more years.
No they will think it is for a different environment and waste time looking for a match. A beginner won't see that just that they cannot get the same answer as the mooc or documentation. They will look for a language where the documentation matches what they get as they don't know if the documentation or their code is wrong. (and probably cast aspersions on the quality of what they are using)
Updating the screenshots for PBE5 was a big pain and I am sure there are ones that are left that are still outdated showing 1.4 , which is at least 6 years old.
-- Mark
For the mooc we have normally an image: it is called Pharo 50. S. On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
--001a113a8620c74f7a054d5aba55 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Not before IMMEDIATELY realizing that all screenshots containing the white theme are outdated and will IMMEDIATELY prefer the dark ones that will have an updated view of the Pharo GUI compared to a screenshot that has the white theme and it's outdated by two or more years.
No they will think it is for a different environment and waste time looking for a match.
A beginner won't see that just that they cannot get the same answer as the mooc or documentation.
They will look for a language where the documentation matches what they get as they don't know if the documentation or their code is wrong. (and probably cast aspersions on the quality of what they are using)
Updating the screenshots for PBE5 was a big pain and I am sure there are ones that are left that are still outdated showing 1.4 , which is at least 6 years old.
-- Mark
I see in 60467 that the deed is done. Okay, so moving forward... be prepared ;) for a surge of feedback as a bunch of us dark-theme-newbies start using it in earnest. I understand those that been using it a while already are obviously happy with how its tuned, and probably not many things can be accommodated, but there is one thing... Maybe its that its 1AM, or its my astigmatism, but my first impression was a shock at the high contrast pure-white-on-black text - for the World Menu and System Browser - to the degree that my eyes felt crosseyed. Particularly the title-bar-text was jarring. Dimming it slightly made it *much* easier to focus. Could dark-theme-connoisseurs try this out... Pharo3DarkTheme>>textColor ^ Color veryLightGray lighter And wow! That very bright green in TestRunner hurts. Other than that, so far it looks cool. cheers -ben On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 3:19 AM, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com> wrote:
For the mooc we have normally an image: it is called Pharo 50.
S.
On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
--001a113a8620c74f7a054d5aba55 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Not before IMMEDIATELY realizing that all screenshots containing the white theme are outdated and will IMMEDIATELY prefer the dark ones that will have an updated view of the Pharo GUI compared to a screenshot that has the white theme and it's outdated by two or more years.
No they will think it is for a different environment and waste time looking for a match.
A beginner won't see that just that they cannot get the same answer as the mooc or documentation.
They will look for a language where the documentation matches what they get as they don't know if the documentation or their code is wrong. (and probably cast aspersions on the quality of what they are using)
Updating the screenshots for PBE5 was a big pain and I am sure there are ones that are left that are still outdated showing 1.4 , which is at least 6 years old.
-- Mark
Resistance is futile You know what amazes me about this discussion ? The one thing that I find amazing is that we have like 58 messages already , many of them complain about the dark theme and not one even bothered posting a single screenshot demonstration all these "problems" , just one . How hard it is to trigger a shortcut to capture an image so we who love the dark theme can see why some people find it hard to use. And this is why I feel lucky that the deed is done and this is no democracy.... very happy indeed :) On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 8:48 PM Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
I see in 60467 that the deed is done. Okay, so moving forward... be prepared ;) for a surge of feedback as a bunch of us dark-theme-newbies start using it in earnest. I understand those that been using it a while already are obviously happy with how its tuned, and probably not many things can be accommodated, but there is one thing...
Maybe its that its 1AM, or its my astigmatism, but my first impression was a shock at the high contrast pure-white-on-black text - for the World Menu and System Browser - to the degree that my eyes felt crosseyed. Particularly the title-bar-text was jarring. Dimming it slightly made it *much* easier to focus. Could dark-theme-connoisseurs try this out...
Pharo3DarkTheme>>textColor ^ Color veryLightGray lighter
And wow! That very bright green in TestRunner hurts.
Other than that, so far it looks cool.
cheers -ben
On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 3:19 AM, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com> wrote:
For the mooc we have normally an image: it is called Pharo 50.
S.
On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
--001a113a8620c74f7a054d5aba55 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Not before IMMEDIATELY realizing that all screenshots containing the white theme are outdated and will IMMEDIATELY prefer the dark ones that will have an updated view of the Pharo GUI compared to a screenshot that has the white theme and it's outdated by two or more years.
No they will think it is for a different environment and waste time looking for a match.
A beginner won't see that just that they cannot get the same answer as the mooc or documentation.
They will look for a language where the documentation matches what they get as they don't know if the documentation or their code is wrong. (and probably cast aspersions on the quality of what they are using)
Updating the screenshots for PBE5 was a big pain and I am sure there
are
ones that are left that are still outdated showing 1.4 , which is at least 6 years old.
-- Mark
and I agree your method is easier on the eyes , though I would want it a bit brighter because I have many bright windows (unfortunately ) outside pharo window and they will steal my focus The lesson of this story.... Try Nireas or make your own custom theme. No theme will make you as happy as making your own theme and frankly its so easy. On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 11:10 AM Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
Resistance is futile
You know what amazes me about this discussion ?
The one thing that I find amazing is that we have like 58 messages already , many of them complain about the dark theme and not one even bothered posting a single screenshot demonstration all these "problems" , just one . How hard it is to trigger a shortcut to capture an image so we who love the dark theme can see why some people find it hard to use.
And this is why I feel lucky that the deed is done and this is no democracy.... very happy indeed :)
On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 8:48 PM Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
I see in 60467 that the deed is done. Okay, so moving forward... be prepared ;) for a surge of feedback as a bunch of us dark-theme-newbies start using it in earnest. I understand those that been using it a while already are obviously happy with how its tuned, and probably not many things can be accommodated, but there is one thing...
Maybe its that its 1AM, or its my astigmatism, but my first impression was a shock at the high contrast pure-white-on-black text - for the World Menu and System Browser - to the degree that my eyes felt crosseyed. Particularly the title-bar-text was jarring. Dimming it slightly made it *much* easier to focus. Could dark-theme-connoisseurs try this out...
Pharo3DarkTheme>>textColor ^ Color veryLightGray lighter
And wow! That very bright green in TestRunner hurts.
Other than that, so far it looks cool.
cheers -ben
On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 3:19 AM, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com> wrote:
For the mooc we have normally an image: it is called Pharo 50.
S.
On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
--001a113a8620c74f7a054d5aba55 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Not before IMMEDIATELY realizing that all screenshots containing the white theme are outdated and will IMMEDIATELY prefer the dark ones that
will
have an updated view of the Pharo GUI compared to a screenshot that has the white theme and it's outdated by two or more years.
No they will think it is for a different environment and waste time looking for a match.
A beginner won't see that just that they cannot get the same answer as the mooc or documentation.
They will look for a language where the documentation matches what they get as they don't know if the documentation or their code is wrong. (and probably cast aspersions on the quality of what they are using)
Updating the screenshots for PBE5 was a big pain and I am sure there are ones that are left that are still outdated showing 1.4 , which is at least 6 years old.
-- Mark
2017-04-21 5:10 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com>:
Resistance is futile
You know what amazes me about this discussion ?
The one thing that I find amazing is that we have like 58 messages already , many of them complain about the dark theme and not one even bothered posting a single screenshot demonstration all these "problems" , just one . How hard it is to trigger a shortcut to capture an image so we who love the dark theme can see why some people find it hard to use.
And this is why I feel lucky that the deed is done and this is no democracy.... very happy indeed :)
You don't have ANY idea of how is to live without democracy. Cheers, Hernán
On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 8:48 PM Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
I see in 60467 that the deed is done. Okay, so moving forward... be prepared ;) for a surge of feedback as a bunch of us dark-theme-newbies start using it in earnest. I understand those that been using it a while already are obviously happy with how its tuned, and probably not many things can be accommodated, but there is one thing...
Maybe its that its 1AM, or its my astigmatism, but my first impression was a shock at the high contrast pure-white-on-black text - for the World Menu and System Browser - to the degree that my eyes felt crosseyed. Particularly the title-bar-text was jarring. Dimming it slightly made it *much* easier to focus. Could dark-theme-connoisseurs try this out...
Pharo3DarkTheme>>textColor ^ Color veryLightGray lighter
And wow! That very bright green in TestRunner hurts.
Other than that, so far it looks cool.
cheers -ben
On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 3:19 AM, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com> wrote:
For the mooc we have normally an image: it is called Pharo 50.
S.
On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
--001a113a8620c74f7a054d5aba55 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Not before IMMEDIATELY realizing that all screenshots containing the white theme are outdated and will IMMEDIATELY prefer the dark ones that
will
have an updated view of the Pharo GUI compared to a screenshot that has the white theme and it's outdated by two or more years.
No they will think it is for a different environment and waste time looking for a match.
A beginner won't see that just that they cannot get the same answer as the mooc or documentation.
They will look for a language where the documentation matches what they get as they don't know if the documentation or their code is wrong. (and probably cast aspersions on the quality of what they are using)
Updating the screenshots for PBE5 was a big pain and I am sure there are ones that are left that are still outdated showing 1.4 , which is at least 6 years old.
-- Mark
I think that 300 years of enslavement by the Ottoman Empire gave us (as a nation) a pretty good idea , plus the Great Fire of Smyrna, plus Nazi occupation etc. You assume too much. I was talking about Pharo by the way, not politics. On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:32 PM Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:
2017-04-21 5:10 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com>:
Resistance is futile
You know what amazes me about this discussion ?
The one thing that I find amazing is that we have like 58 messages already , many of them complain about the dark theme and not one even bothered posting a single screenshot demonstration all these "problems" , just one . How hard it is to trigger a shortcut to capture an image so we who love the dark theme can see why some people find it hard to use.
And this is why I feel lucky that the deed is done and this is no democracy.... very happy indeed :)
You don't have ANY idea of how is to live without democracy.
Cheers,
Hernán
On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 8:48 PM Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
I see in 60467 that the deed is done. Okay, so moving forward... be prepared ;) for a surge of feedback as a bunch of us dark-theme-newbies start using it in earnest. I understand those that been using it a while already are obviously happy with how its tuned, and probably not many things can be accommodated, but there is one thing...
Maybe its that its 1AM, or its my astigmatism, but my first impression was a shock at the high contrast pure-white-on-black text - for the World Menu and System Browser - to the degree that my eyes felt crosseyed. Particularly the title-bar-text was jarring. Dimming it slightly made it *much* easier to focus. Could dark-theme-connoisseurs try this out...
Pharo3DarkTheme>>textColor ^ Color veryLightGray lighter
And wow! That very bright green in TestRunner hurts.
Other than that, so far it looks cool.
cheers -ben
On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 3:19 AM, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com> wrote:
For the mooc we have normally an image: it is called Pharo 50.
S.
On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
--001a113a8620c74f7a054d5aba55 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Not before IMMEDIATELY realizing that all screenshots containing the white theme are outdated and will IMMEDIATELY prefer the dark ones that
will
have an updated view of the Pharo GUI compared to a screenshot that has the white theme and it's outdated by two or more years.
No they will think it is for a different environment and waste time looking for a match.
A beginner won't see that just that they cannot get the same answer as the mooc or documentation.
They will look for a language where the documentation matches what they get as they don't know if the documentation or their code is wrong. (and probably cast aspersions on the quality of what they are using)
Updating the screenshots for PBE5 was a big pain and I am sure there are ones that are left that are still outdated showing 1.4 , which is at least 6 years old.
-- Mark
Then don't talk about democracy, because you weren't born at Ottoman Empire nor Nazi occupation, and many of us actually were born and lived under military dictatorship. So next time think twice before putting a smile besides "no democracy". 2017-04-21 7:40 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com>:
I think that 300 years of enslavement by the Ottoman Empire gave us (as a nation) a pretty good idea , plus the Great Fire of Smyrna, plus Nazi occupation etc. You assume too much. I was talking about Pharo by the way, not politics.
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:32 PM Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:
2017-04-21 5:10 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com>:
Resistance is futile
You know what amazes me about this discussion ?
The one thing that I find amazing is that we have like 58 messages already , many of them complain about the dark theme and not one even bothered posting a single screenshot demonstration all these "problems" , just one . How hard it is to trigger a shortcut to capture an image so we who love the dark theme can see why some people find it hard to use.
And this is why I feel lucky that the deed is done and this is no democracy.... very happy indeed :)
You don't have ANY idea of how is to live without democracy.
Cheers,
Hernán
On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 8:48 PM Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
I see in 60467 that the deed is done. Okay, so moving forward... be prepared ;) for a surge of feedback as a bunch of us dark-theme-newbies start using it in earnest. I understand those that been using it a while already are obviously happy with how its tuned, and probably not many things can be accommodated, but there is one thing...
Maybe its that its 1AM, or its my astigmatism, but my first impression was a shock at the high contrast pure-white-on-black text - for the World Menu and System Browser - to the degree that my eyes felt crosseyed. Particularly the title-bar-text was jarring. Dimming it slightly made it *much* easier to focus. Could dark-theme-connoisseurs try this out...
Pharo3DarkTheme>>textColor ^ Color veryLightGray lighter
And wow! That very bright green in TestRunner hurts.
Other than that, so far it looks cool.
cheers -ben
On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 3:19 AM, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com> wrote:
For the mooc we have normally an image: it is called Pharo 50.
S.
On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
--001a113a8620c74f7a054d5aba55 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Not before IMMEDIATELY realizing that all screenshots containing
the
white theme are outdated and will IMMEDIATELY prefer the dark ones that will have an updated view of the Pharo GUI compared to a screenshot that has the white theme and it's outdated by two or more years.
No they will think it is for a different environment and waste time looking for a match.
A beginner won't see that just that they cannot get the same answer as the mooc or documentation.
They will look for a language where the documentation matches what they get as they don't know if the documentation or their code is wrong. (and probably cast aspersions on the quality of what they are using)
Updating the screenshots for PBE5 was a big pain and I am sure there are ones that are left that are still outdated showing 1.4 , which is at least 6 years old.
-- Mark
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:52 PM Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:
Then don't talk about democracy, because you weren't born at Ottoman Empire nor Nazi occupation, and many of us actually were born and lived under military dictatorship.
I am perplexed from your reply. First your logic makes zero sense for me. I am deeply touched by the pain embedded in the stories I read in books and personal witness accounts of several relatives that were present during Great Fire of Smyrna and the Nazi Occupation. My grandparents were "lucky" enough to suffer both and spared no details of the atrocities they witnessed. These stories have shaped my entire personal identity and guides me in life to respect and tolerate others. If i really needed to live in a non democratic regime to understand this then I would feel that I let these people down (which I so dearly love) and I could never imagine myself doing that. If you want to know I am hardcore supporter of democracy , especially direct technocratic (technology and science based) democracy. So your reply makes me smile more than frustrate me because of how far from the truth you really are. I was referring to Pharo and was definitely did not suggest to take arms and kill anyone who disagrees with us. As I already explained even in a democracy there is a chain of command and frankly a forum is a lousy way to exercise democratic leadership. Not all participate here and messages are about complains and questions not praise. So its a bad representation of the community feelings though a great way to exchange knowledge an help each other. Its much easier and efficient to have a central committee as Pharo has that makes these decisions obviously by taking into account the community and what the users really want. Also as I stated form the start I do not have a problem with making or not making the dark theme the default theme. What I do like however is that we have a leadership that take decisions without having to apologise for them. They try to do their best to make the community happy and I think they do a pretty good job at it. Taking into account how extremely popular dark themes really are. Do not worry you wont be hearing or reading about my political beliefs, here or anywhere, I rarely mention them. People find them hard to digest and I am not very diplomatic at presenting them, but I am working on it :) In any case I am not offended by your remarks, I know you mean well and you just used my message as a way to express your anger for things unrelated to me. I respect your anger and your pain and I hope you find the healing you deserve and a happy life.
How you could support democracy then putting smiles besides "no democracy"? I don't get it. Maybe you like dictatorship, good for you. I don't like them, benevolent or not. You read stories in books. I had born in a military regime, me and my parents lived it, so what do you want to teach me about having military forces around? Again, you don't have any idea of my mood, so please do yourself a favor and stop talking about things you don't really know. Don't put ad hominem on me, if you want to support "benevolent" or malicious dictators good for you. But I don't have anything to do with your argumentation. 2017-04-21 8:22 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com>:
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:52 PM Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:
Then don't talk about democracy, because you weren't born at Ottoman Empire nor Nazi occupation, and many of us actually were born and lived under military dictatorship.
I am perplexed from your reply. First your logic makes zero sense for me. I am deeply touched by the pain embedded in the stories I read in books and personal witness accounts of several relatives that were present during Great Fire of Smyrna and the Nazi Occupation. My grandparents were "lucky" enough to suffer both and spared no details of the atrocities they witnessed. These stories have shaped my entire personal identity and guides me in life to respect and tolerate others. If i really needed to live in a non democratic regime to understand this then I would feel that I let these people down (which I so dearly love) and I could never imagine myself doing that.
If you want to know I am hardcore supporter of democracy , especially direct technocratic (technology and science based) democracy. So your reply makes me smile more than frustrate me because of how far from the truth you really are.
I was referring to Pharo and was definitely did not suggest to take arms and kill anyone who disagrees with us. As I already explained even in a democracy there is a chain of command and frankly a forum is a lousy way to exercise democratic leadership. Not all participate here and messages are about complains and questions not praise. So its a bad representation of the community feelings though a great way to exchange knowledge an help each other. Its much easier and efficient to have a central committee as Pharo has that makes these decisions obviously by taking into account the community and what the users really want.
Also as I stated form the start I do not have a problem with making or not making the dark theme the default theme. What I do like however is that we have a leadership that take decisions without having to apologise for them. They try to do their best to make the community happy and I think they do a pretty good job at it. Taking into account how extremely popular dark themes really are.
Do not worry you wont be hearing or reading about my political beliefs, here or anywhere, I rarely mention them. People find them hard to digest and I am not very diplomatic at presenting them, but I am working on it :)
In any case I am not offended by your remarks, I know you mean well and you just used my message as a way to express your anger for things unrelated to me. I respect your anger and your pain and I hope you find the healing you deserve and a happy life.
in fact, Greece had a pretty hard dictatorship from '67 to '74
On 21 Apr 2017, at 12:40, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
I think that 300 years of enslavement by the Ottoman Empire gave us (as a nation) a pretty good idea , plus the Great Fire of Smyrna, plus Nazi occupation etc. You assume too much. I was talking about Pharo by the way, not politics.
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:32 PM Hernán Morales Durand <hernan.morales@gmail.com <mailto:hernan.morales@gmail.com>> wrote: 2017-04-21 5:10 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com <mailto:kilon.alios@gmail.com>>: Resistance is futile
You know what amazes me about this discussion ?
The one thing that I find amazing is that we have like 58 messages already , many of them complain about the dark theme and not one even bothered posting a single screenshot demonstration all these "problems" , just one . How hard it is to trigger a shortcut to capture an image so we who love the dark theme can see why some people find it hard to use.
And this is why I feel lucky that the deed is done and this is no democracy.... very happy indeed :)
You don't have ANY idea of how is to live without democracy.
Cheers,
Hernán
On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 8:48 PM Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com <mailto:btc@openinworld.com>> wrote: I see in 60467 that the deed is done. Okay, so moving forward... be prepared ;) for a surge of feedback as a bunch of us dark-theme-newbies start using it in earnest. I understand those that been using it a while already are obviously happy with how its tuned, and probably not many things can be accommodated, but there is one thing...
Maybe its that its 1AM, or its my astigmatism, but my first impression was a shock at the high contrast pure-white-on-black text - for the World Menu and System Browser - to the degree that my eyes felt crosseyed. Particularly the title-bar-text was jarring. Dimming it slightly made it *much* easier to focus. Could dark-theme-connoisseurs try this out...
Pharo3DarkTheme>>textColor ^ Color veryLightGray lighter
And wow! That very bright green in TestRunner hurts.
Other than that, so far it looks cool.
cheers -ben
On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 3:19 AM, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com <mailto:stepharo.self@gmail.com>> wrote:
For the mooc we have normally an image: it is called Pharo 50.
S.
On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk <mailto:news%7B@bestley.co.uk>> wrote:
Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com <mailto:kilon.alios@gmail.com>> wrote:
--001a113a8620c74f7a054d5aba55 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Not before IMMEDIATELY realizing that all screenshots containing the white theme are outdated and will IMMEDIATELY prefer the dark ones that will have an updated view of the Pharo GUI compared to a screenshot that has the white theme and it's outdated by two or more years.
No they will think it is for a different environment and waste time looking for a match.
A beginner won't see that just that they cannot get the same answer as the mooc or documentation.
They will look for a language where the documentation matches what they get as they don't know if the documentation or their code is wrong. (and probably cast aspersions on the quality of what they are using)
Updating the screenshots for PBE5 was a big pain and I am sure there are ones that are left that are still outdated showing 1.4 , which is at least 6 years old.
-- Mark
Then more respect for the word, because many people gave their life for it. 2017-04-21 7:52 GMT-03:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
in fact, Greece had a pretty hard dictatorship from '67 to '74
On 21 Apr 2017, at 12:40, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
I think that 300 years of enslavement by the Ottoman Empire gave us (as a nation) a pretty good idea , plus the Great Fire of Smyrna, plus Nazi occupation etc. You assume too much. I was talking about Pharo by the way, not politics.
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:32 PM Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:
2017-04-21 5:10 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com>:
Resistance is futile
You know what amazes me about this discussion ?
The one thing that I find amazing is that we have like 58 messages already , many of them complain about the dark theme and not one even bothered posting a single screenshot demonstration all these "problems" , just one . How hard it is to trigger a shortcut to capture an image so we who love the dark theme can see why some people find it hard to use.
And this is why I feel lucky that the deed is done and this is no democracy.... very happy indeed :)
You don't have ANY idea of how is to live without democracy.
Cheers,
Hernán
On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 8:48 PM Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
I see in 60467 that the deed is done. Okay, so moving forward... be prepared ;) for a surge of feedback as a bunch of us dark-theme-newbies start using it in earnest. I understand those that been using it a while already are obviously happy with how its tuned, and probably not many things can be accommodated, but there is one thing...
Maybe its that its 1AM, or its my astigmatism, but my first impression was a shock at the high contrast pure-white-on-black text - for the World Menu and System Browser - to the degree that my eyes felt crosseyed. Particularly the title-bar-text was jarring. Dimming it slightly made it *much* easier to focus. Could dark-theme-connoisseurs try this out...
Pharo3DarkTheme>>textColor ^ Color veryLightGray lighter
And wow! That very bright green in TestRunner hurts.
Other than that, so far it looks cool.
cheers -ben
On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 3:19 AM, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com> wrote:
For the mooc we have normally an image: it is called Pharo 50.
S.
On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
--001a113a8620c74f7a054d5aba55 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Not before IMMEDIATELY realizing that all screenshots containing
the
white theme are outdated and will IMMEDIATELY prefer the dark ones that will have an updated view of the Pharo GUI compared to a screenshot that has the white theme and it's outdated by two or more years.
No they will think it is for a different environment and waste time looking for a match.
A beginner won't see that just that they cannot get the same answer as the mooc or documentation.
They will look for a language where the documentation matches what they get as they don't know if the documentation or their code is wrong. (and probably cast aspersions on the quality of what they are using)
Updating the screenshots for PBE5 was a big pain and I am sure there are ones that are left that are still outdated showing 1.4 , which is at least 6 years old.
-- Mark
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
You know what amazes me about this discussion ?
not one even bothered posting a single screenshot demonstration all these "problems" , just one .
To rebut you, you haven't been paying attention :) :P https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19941/Dark-Theme-overlapped-title-bars-nee... cheers -ben
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:53 PM Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
You know what amazes me about this discussion ?
not one even bothered posting a single screenshot demonstration all these "problems" , just one .
To rebut you, you haven't been paying attention :) :P
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19941/Dark-Theme-overlapped-title-bars-nee...
cheers -ben
I mean in this thread , will make it easier, because for example fogbuz asks for a login. Though I agree bug reports is the best way to report these issues :) I think a potential solution would be to offer several Dark Themes instead of one, so maybe as a community we can agree a few of them and I can make then and Esteban integrate them. We could also do the same for the white theme. There is little reason to be only 2. This way we will have a happier community.
On 21/04/17 13:26, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:53 PM Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com <mailto:btc@openinworld.com>> wrote:
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com <mailto:kilon.alios@gmail.com>> wrote: > You know what amazes me about this discussion ? > > not one even bothered posting > a single screenshot demonstration all these "problems" , just one .
To rebut you, you haven't been paying attention :) :P https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19941/Dark-Theme-overlapped-title-bars-nee...
cheers -ben
I mean in this thread , will make it easier, because for example fogbuz asks for a login.
You still haven't been paying attention. We have hard-coded colors all over the place. And I am not interested in new bug reports now. I want the theme switch reverted and done after the release. This is just bad process and it should be stopped. Stephan
its ironic you say this Stephan and the irony is that you claim that Dark Theme is inappropriate because Pharo uses so many hard coded colours when it was Esteban's effort to have a dark theme that decreased the amount of hard coded methods and modified them to support themes. The very reason you use that Dark Theme should not be used as default is the very reason to use it because it will forces us to detect those methods and convert them to support our Theme classes. This will not only improve the Dark Themes but ANY future theme. What I can say with certainty is that the way to move forward is most definitely not to move back. I also do not like the fact that GTSpotter has its own theme support , I found it a terrible idea when it first appeared, after a long time using GTSpotter , still find it a terrible idea that is completely disconnected from the main theme. On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 3:49 PM Stephan Eggermont <stephan@stack.nl> wrote:
On 21/04/17 13:26, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:53 PM Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com <mailto:btc@openinworld.com>> wrote:
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com <mailto:kilon.alios@gmail.com>> wrote: > You know what amazes me about this discussion ? > > not one even bothered posting > a single screenshot demonstration all these "problems" , just one .
To rebut you, you haven't been paying attention :) :P
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19941/Dark-Theme-overlapped-title-bars-nee...
cheers -ben
I mean in this thread , will make it easier, because for example fogbuz asks for a login.
You still haven't been paying attention. We have hard-coded colors all over the place. And I am not interested in new bug reports now. I want the theme switch reverted and done after the release. This is just bad process and it should be stopped.
Stephan
On 21/04/17 15:22, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
its ironic you say this Stephan
and the irony is that you claim that Dark Theme is inappropriate because Pharo uses so many hard coded colours when it was Esteban's effort to have a dark theme that decreased the amount of hard coded methods and modified them to support themes. The very reason you use that Dark Theme should not be used as default is the very reason to use it because it will forces us to detect those methods and convert them to support our Theme classes. This will not only improve the Dark Themes but ANY future theme.
No. That is just an indicator that we are far from finished, and that is one good reason not to switch to it close to release. The other reasons are: - it breaks our own feature freeze rule; - giving us not enough time to test; - the number of hard-coded colors suggests that our practical (non-automated) test coverage is low and the actual users of dark theme have usage patterns that miss parts of the system; - it focuses attention on a part of the system that should be irrelevant so close to release; - it forces projects that depend on pharo to make changes now; - making it more difficult for them to release close after pharo releases; - and thus makes pharo release management look amateurish; - it is a bad default for the majority of users; - who will mostly not do any testing but only switch to light theme as fast as possible, especially when confronted with a decision made like this; - and is thus bad marketing; - it is taking a lot of time from the people who should be doing more productive things. Stephan
Can people just explain to my why we have so many big threads each time a default settings is changed? I understand that some settings need a certain default value when it come for discover-ability of a feature. But why so many noise for feature that are totally taste dependent? The principle of settings is that some people will like the default one and some will not like it. That's the point. Why are people so afraid of settings? I have the impression that Pharo has no setting system each time I see those threads. Neverless, I agree that we should have a way at the first launch of Pharo on a computer to let the user define some common settings as Squeak does. It's a really cool feature of most IDEs (like Intellij for example). Probably too late for Pharo 6, but not for Pharo 7. I am just a little tired to see this many noise for things like that. -- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr http://www.synectique.eu 2 rue Jacques Prévert 01, 59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 8:01 PM, Cyril Ferlicot D. <cyril.ferlicot@gmail.com
wrote:
Can people just explain to my why we have so many big threads each time a default settings is changed?
Law of triviality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality Because its natural to have personal preferences/opinions and easy to bike-shed about those. I'm as guilty as the next guy. btw, I'm in favour of the board making these sorts of executive decisions rather than voting. Sure if a vote was 90% against the dark theme it would seem strange to go against it, but what if it was only 51%. I don't imagine that result really smoothing community sentiment. Now what about 55% or 60%? Where you draw the line now becomes an executive decision. So sometimes its more efficient to just move than have continuous discussions. Also there may be a bigger picture to bring in more users/money (aka marketting) which we don't hear the details of. But people do need an opportunity to vent so the board are not blind to community sentiment. So just roll with it. cheers -ben
I understand that some settings need a certain default value when it come for discover-ability of a feature. But why so many noise for feature that are totally taste dependent? The principle of settings is that some people will like the default one and some will not like it. That's the point.
Why are people so afraid of settings? I have the impression that Pharo has no setting system each time I see those threads.
Neverless, I agree that we should have a way at the first launch of Pharo on a computer to let the user define some common settings as Squeak does. It's a really cool feature of most IDEs (like Intellij for example). Probably too late for Pharo 6, but not for Pharo 7.
I am just a little tired to see this many noise for things like that.
-- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr
http://www.synectique.eu 2 rue Jacques Prévert 01, 59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France
I wonder why voting is considered something good. To me voting is rather a last resort strategy. Voting is taking power without the need for having an opinion nor any reason. To me the sense of voting is to make most people feel empowered/comfortable. And the outcome is often poor or even contradictory. my 2 cents, Norbert
Am 16.04.2017 um 17:49 schrieb Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com>:
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 8:01 PM, Cyril Ferlicot D. <cyril.ferlicot@gmail.com> wrote: Can people just explain to my why we have so many big threads each time a default settings is changed?
Law of triviality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality Because its natural to have personal preferences/opinions and easy to bike-shed about those. I'm as guilty as the next guy.
btw, I'm in favour of the board making these sorts of executive decisions rather than voting. Sure if a vote was 90% against the dark theme it would seem strange to go against it, but what if it was only 51%. I don't imagine that result really smoothing community sentiment. Now what about 55% or 60%? Where you draw the line now becomes an executive decision.
So sometimes its more efficient to just move than have continuous discussions. Also there may be a bigger picture to bring in more users/money (aka marketting) which we don't hear the details of. But people do need an opportunity to vent so the board are not blind to community sentiment. So just roll with it.
cheers -ben
I understand that some settings need a certain default value when it come for discover-ability of a feature. But why so many noise for feature that are totally taste dependent? The principle of settings is that some people will like the default one and some will not like it. That's the point.
Why are people so afraid of settings? I have the impression that Pharo has no setting system each time I see those threads.
Neverless, I agree that we should have a way at the first launch of Pharo on a computer to let the user define some common settings as Squeak does. It's a really cool feature of most IDEs (like Intellij for example). Probably too late for Pharo 6, but not for Pharo 7.
I am just a little tired to see this many noise for things like that.
-- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr
http://www.synectique.eu 2 rue Jacques Prévert 01, 59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France
Hi Norbert, 2017-04-16 13:28 GMT-03:00 Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name>:
I wonder why voting is considered something good. To me voting is rather a last resort strategy. Voting is taking power without the need for having an opinion nor any reason. To me the sense of voting is to make most people feel empowered/comfortable. And the outcome is often poor or even contradictory.
On the contrary, voting is a good measure of the wisdom and education of the community. Voting is a way to get people who seek absolute power and tyrants out of the road. Because a man without a vote is a man without protection. Because voting and prevents the cult of ignorance promoted by the Open-Source lemma of the "benevolent dictatorship". That post-modern notion of benevolent dictatorship will solve things is terrible. Hernán my 2 cents,
Norbert
Am 16.04.2017 um 17:49 schrieb Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com>:
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 8:01 PM, Cyril Ferlicot D. < cyril.ferlicot@gmail.com> wrote:
Can people just explain to my why we have so many big threads each time a default settings is changed?
Law of triviality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality Because its natural to have personal preferences/opinions and easy to bike-shed about those. I'm as guilty as the next guy.
btw, I'm in favour of the board making these sorts of executive decisions rather than voting. Sure if a vote was 90% against the dark theme it would seem strange to go against it, but what if it was only 51%. I don't imagine that result really smoothing community sentiment. Now what about 55% or 60%? Where you draw the line now becomes an executive decision.
So sometimes its more efficient to just move than have continuous discussions. Also there may be a bigger picture to bring in more users/money (aka marketting) which we don't hear the details of. But people do need an opportunity to vent so the board are not blind to community sentiment. So just roll with it.
cheers -ben
I understand that some settings need a certain default value when it come for discover-ability of a feature. But why so many noise for feature that are totally taste dependent? The principle of settings is that some people will like the default one and some will not like it. That's the point.
Why are people so afraid of settings? I have the impression that Pharo has no setting system each time I see those threads.
Neverless, I agree that we should have a way at the first launch of Pharo on a computer to let the user define some common settings as Squeak does. It's a really cool feature of most IDEs (like Intellij for example). Probably too late for Pharo 6, but not for Pharo 7.
I am just a little tired to see this many noise for things like that.
-- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr
http://www.synectique.eu 2 rue Jacques Prévert 01, 59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France
All major desktop OSes have light theme by default. Most web sites have white or light background and dark text. Almost all PDF documents have white background. Switching between dark and light themed applications puts strain on the eyes. So it's not just aesthetic preference. Dark theme will be uncomfortable to use for most users. "Looking cool" or "being different" is not an excuse. Image and video editing programs are a different story, because edited content usually takes most of the screen space. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/changing-default-theme-to-DarkTheme-tp4942038p4942224.... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Am 15.04.2017 um 15:35 schrieb webwarrior <reg@webwarrior.ws>:
All major desktop OSes have light theme by default. Most web sites have white or light background and dark text. Almost all PDF documents have white background.
Switching between dark and light themed applications puts strain on the eyes. So it's not just aesthetic preference. Dark theme will be uncomfortable to use for most users. "Looking cool" or "being different" is not an excuse.
But that is not true. Well, I would hope you are right because I don't like the dark theme. But to be fair I need to say that what you say is only right for things be read, newspapers and web sites. The problem for programming is that we use syntax highlighting, hence using a lot of colors. And comparing the capability of building contrasts with colors, dark colors win, sorry. At least that were the last researches I've read. My problem is more the pharo dark theme. I tried to use it the last days. But the colors chosen do not work for me. Somehow they are misaligned but as I'm not an expert on that topic, I cannot give any valuable input. Norbert
Image and video editing programs are a different story, because edited content usually takes most of the screen space.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/changing-default-theme-to-DarkTheme-tp4942038p4942224.... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On 15/04/17 16:02, Norbert Hartl wrote:
And comparing the capability of building contrasts with colors, dark colors win, sorry. At least that were the last researches I've read.
Which ones? https://webstandards.hhs.gov/guidelines/106 seems pretty clear. Stephan
Am 15.04.2017 um 16:39 schrieb Stephan Eggermont <stephan@stack.nl>:
On 15/04/17 16:02, Norbert Hartl wrote:
And comparing the capability of building contrasts with colors, dark colors win, sorry. At least that were the last researches I've read.
Which ones? https://webstandards.hhs.gov/guidelines/106 seems pretty clear.
Yes, it is clear that "When users are expected to rapidly read and understand prose text, use black text on a plain, high-contrast, non-patterned background." That is what I said. If you read a lot of text then dark on light works better. This is not the case if the text is colored which it is when syntax highlighting is used. A lot of colors typically used within highlighting build a weaker contrast with white then they do with dark background. I don't have the papers at hand. I try to find those references again. Norbert
NorbertHartl wrote
Am 15.04.2017 um 15:35 schrieb webwarrior <
reg@
>:
All major desktop OSes have light theme by default. Most web sites have white or light background and dark text. Almost all PDF documents have white background.
Switching between dark and light themed applications puts strain on the eyes. So it's not just aesthetic preference. Dark theme will be uncomfortable to use for most users. "Looking cool" or "being different" is not an excuse.
But that is not true. Well, I would hope you are right because I don't like the dark theme. But to be fair I need to say that what you say is only right for things be read, newspapers and web sites. The problem for programming is that we use syntax highlighting, hence using a lot of colors. And comparing the capability of building contrasts with colors, dark colors win, sorry. At least that were the last researches I've read. My problem is more the pharo dark theme. I tried to use it the last days. But the colors chosen do not work for me. Somehow they are misaligned but as I'm not an expert on that topic, I cannot give any valuable input.
Norbert
I'm not saying that light on dark is bad. I'm saying that switching between light on dark and dark on light is uncomfortable. Like when you have to look something up on the web, or read docs/notes, or move files in file manager, etc. You're not working in Pharo all the time, right? -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/changing-default-theme-to-DarkTheme-tp4942038p4942233.... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Ah, the tips are readable at least. Just kidding ;) Good job. Hilaire Le 14/04/2017 à 09:09, Esteban Lorenzano a écrit :
I wanted to let you know that we talked at the board and we want to make the DarkTheme a default for Pharo 6.0. This is just because we want to have a visual immediate reference of changing things (yeah, marketing ;) )
-- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu
participants (18)
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Andrei Chis -
Ben Coman -
Clément Bera -
Cyril Ferlicot D. -
Denis Kudriashov -
Dimitris Chloupis -
Esteban Lorenzano -
Hernán Morales Durand -
Hilaire -
nacho -
news{＠bestley.co.uk -
Norbert Hartl -
Pavel Krivanek -
phil＠highoctane.be -
Stephan Eggermont -
Stephane Ducasse -
Sven Van Caekenberghe -
webwarrior