look funny :p GTK icons ? 2012/4/23 Guillermo Polito <guillermopolito@gmail.com>

I like them. Except for the test runner one :P. Isn't there any other nicer?

On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 3:28 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>wrote:

...

Hi,

I just hacked (well, yesterday, I was bored in my room) a new icon set for pharo, based on famfam icons.

How to get it? just drop the mcz into your pharo image, then execute:

ThemeIcons initializeIcons. World resetWorldMenu.

(you can't switch back, so... be careful :) I want to replace old icons with these... what do you think?

I'm attaching some screnshots.

-- Douaille Erwan <douaille.erwan@gmail.com>

How about "cake" from the silk set? :) More seriously, what about "rosette"? I'm guessing that this is the set used: http://www.famfamfam.com/lab/icons/silk/previews/index_abc.png The bullets look kind of familiar from OmniBrowser test cases. Cheers, Martin On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 11:02 PM, Guillermo Polito <guillermopolito@gmail.com> wrote:

I like them.  Except for the test runner one :P.  Isn't there any other nicer?

On Apr 24, 2012, at 1:36 AM, Igor Stasenko wrote:

no, guys.. you lost me.. the things you propose is like stone age :)

i want something which will give us much better things.. like this one: http://raphaeljs.com/icons/ or this: http://www.tehkseven.net/blog/1/entry-1066-475-free-awesome-high-quality-ico...

yes but the license is unclear. "you can you them in any way you want is not that clear :)" Then ok but can we use vector graphics without athens-cairo?

and they are in SVG format.. so you don't lose a bit of quality .. never. anymore :)

On 24 April 2012 01:44, Martin Sandiford <ms@mcdev.com.au> wrote:

...

How about "cake" from the silk set? :)

More seriously, what about "rosette"?

I'm guessing that this is the set used: http://www.famfamfam.com/lab/icons/silk/previews/index_abc.png

The bullets look kind of familiar from OmniBrowser test cases.

Cheers, Martin

On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 11:02 PM, Guillermo Polito <guillermopolito@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I like them. Except for the test runner one :P. Isn't there any other nicer?

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

that sounds cool. But what do you do on a server image with shiny rendered vector based icons. What will be in the image after cleanUpForProduction?

yes this was my point. stef

Am 24.04.2012 um 11:21 schrieb Geert Claes:

In light of the recent "toybox from mattel" look feedback on reddit, I reckon Esteban's proposed icons are a big step forward so I would say get them in Pharo :)

http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/si9s5/pharo_14_released_smallta...

Of course, if there is an ugly replacment that can be used if the system is minimised. Having two icon sets introduces the possibility to make the ugly one consume even less memory, e.g. make it black and white. Norbert

Am 24.04.2012 um 11:35 schrieb Geert Claes:

Norbert Hartl wrote

...

Of course, if there is an ugly replacment that can be used if the system is minimised. Having two icon sets introduces the possibility to make the ugly one consume even less memory, e.g. make it black and white.

I have no idea what you just tried to say :) When you say ugly replacement, are you talking about the current ugly icons or do you find Esteban's suggested icons not appealing enough?

It is just an addition to my first statement. If we call the current icon set medium in the sense of medium cutiness and medium memory consumption than there is a new situation with the new nice icons. Igor is right, if the vector world is coming to pharo then it is easy to make really good looking icons in the image. But the memory consumption and CPU intensity will be raised. That contradicts to usage of pharo in a server environment. So what I was saying is that I think that the new icons are great. But then there should be a replacement for it when the image is shrinked. The same happens with the fonts if you shrink. And if the icons are replaced they could even be replaced by something really basic that saves additional memory. On a server with VNC or the like the icons aren't that important and maybe can be removed completely. More clear now? Norbert

yes and we will have to also distribute icons into class resources.

total memory consumption on old icons: 27258 total memory consumption on new icons: 67234

so... is 40k more... I think we can live with that :)

anyway, if you want to save memory, you can strip that and have no icons at all (just remove *IconContents methods and reset icons class var).

Esteban

On Apr 24, 2012, at 11:44 AM, Norbert Hartl wrote:

...

Am 24.04.2012 um 11:35 schrieb Geert Claes:

...

Norbert Hartl wrote

...

Of course, if there is an ugly replacment that can be used if the system is minimised. Having two icon sets introduces the possibility to make the ugly one consume even less memory, e.g. make it black and white.

I have no idea what you just tried to say :) When you say ugly replacement, are you talking about the current ugly icons or do you find Esteban's suggested icons not appealing enough?

It is just an addition to my first statement. If we call the current icon set medium in the sense of medium cutiness and medium memory consumption than there is a new situation with the new nice icons. Igor is right, if the vector world is coming to pharo then it is easy to make really good looking icons in the image. But the memory consumption and CPU intensity will be raised. That contradicts to usage of pharo in a server environment. So what I was saying is that I think that the new icons are great. But then there should be a replacement for it when the image is shrinked. The same happens with the fonts if you shrink. And if the icons are replaced they could even be replaced by something really basic that saves additional memory. On a server with VNC or the like the icons aren't that important and maybe can be removed completely.

More clear now?

Norbert

On 24 April 2012 11:44, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:

Am 24.04.2012 um 11:35 schrieb Geert Claes:

...

Norbert Hartl wrote

...

Of course, if there is an ugly replacment that can be used if the system is minimised. Having two icon sets introduces the possibility to make the ugly one consume even less memory, e.g. make it black and white.

I have no idea what you just tried to say :)  When you say ugly replacement, are you talking about the current ugly icons or do you find Esteban's suggested icons not appealing enough?

It is just an addition to my first statement. If we call the current icon set medium in the sense of medium cutiness and medium memory consumption than there is a new situation with the new nice icons. Igor is right, if the vector world is coming to pharo then it is easy to make really good looking icons in the image. But the memory consumption and CPU intensity will be raised. That contradicts to usage of pharo in a server environment. So what I was saying is that I think that the new icons are great. But then there should be a replacement for it when the image is shrinked. The same happens with the fonts if you shrink. And if the icons are replaced they could even be replaced by something really basic that saves additional memory. On a server with VNC or the like the icons aren't that important and maybe can be removed completely.

More clear now?

Norbert

did i miss something? since when memory consumption for vector graphics takes more space? look at the size of .svg files and compare them with size of .png files for same icons. Vector data are much more compact. So, actually if you really want to shrink things down, you need to operate with vectors :) More CPU for rendering vector graphics? Perhaps. It is of course more expensive than just copying memory from one bitmap to another. But desktop environment requires a lot more complex operations that just copying bits from one form over another one. And also consider the cases where you need to use 5 different operations to simulate just one. (look at famous corner rounder hack). -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

but, Norbert, I don't see the point. In a server you will not have (or *should* not have) a display... so rendering time, etc. is non an issue, because it will not be any... or I'm missing something? cheers, Esteban On Apr 24, 2012, at 2:02 PM, Norbert Hartl wrote:

Am 24.04.2012 um 12:50 schrieb Igor Stasenko:

...

On 24 April 2012 11:44, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:

...

Am 24.04.2012 um 11:35 schrieb Geert Claes:

...

Norbert Hartl wrote

...

Of course, if there is an ugly replacment that can be used if the system is minimised. Having two icon sets introduces the possibility to make the ugly one consume even less memory, e.g. make it black and white.

I have no idea what you just tried to say :) When you say ugly replacement, are you talking about the current ugly icons or do you find Esteban's suggested icons not appealing enough?

It is just an addition to my first statement. If we call the current icon set medium in the sense of medium cutiness and medium memory consumption than there is a new situation with the new nice icons. Igor is right, if the vector world is coming to pharo then it is easy to make really good looking icons in the image. But the memory consumption and CPU intensity will be raised. That contradicts to usage of pharo in a server environment. So what I was saying is that I think that the new icons are great. But then there should be a replacement for it when the image is shrinked. The same happens with the fonts if you shrink. And if the icons are replaced they could even be replaced by something really basic that saves additional memory. On a server with VNC or the like the icons aren't that important and maybe can be removed completely.

More clear now?

Norbert

did i miss something? since when memory consumption for vector graphics takes more space? look at the size of .svg files and compare them with size of .png files for same icons.

There is a difference between storage size and in-memory size. The storage size is important if you put the resource class-based. For the rest you need to decide. Either you render the icon every update from source or you do cache and from then on you have storage size + in-memory size for your icons. If you do fancy stuff automatically which means it probably uses a lot of colors so this can be quite big.

...

Vector data are much more compact. So, actually if you really want to shrink things down, you need to operate with vectors :)

Yes, and then you need a lot of cpu cycles. Just what I said.

...

More CPU for rendering vector graphics? Perhaps. It is of course more expensive than just copying memory from one bitmap to another. But desktop environment requires a lot more complex operations that just copying bits from one form over another one. And also consider the cases where you need to use 5 different operations to simulate just one. (look at famous corner rounder hack).

Again what I said. It is feasible to have good looking stuff. But everything you said is unimportant on a server. I'm just begging you not to forget that. That's all. Nothing against any of your plans. It will make pharo better.

Norbert

you have 1 and 3 :) for svg, we still need to wait a bit :) On Apr 24, 2012, at 2:13 PM, Norbert Hartl wrote:

Am 24.04.2012 um 14:06 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano:

...

but, Norbert, I don't see the point. In a server you will not have (or *should* not have) a display... so rendering time, etc. is non an issue, because it will not be any... or I'm missing something?

I think most people using pharo on the server are using VNC to maintain them. I do that,too, in lack of a better tool. So in this case there is a display and there are icons. Rendering is not an issue as long as you suspend to UI thread until you need it. So, let me just repeat

...new icons.... cool! ...svg icons.....cool! ...removable icons...cool!

That's basically all I wanted to say.

Norbert

...

cheers, Esteban

On Apr 24, 2012, at 2:02 PM, Norbert Hartl wrote:

...

Am 24.04.2012 um 12:50 schrieb Igor Stasenko:

...

On 24 April 2012 11:44, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:

...

Am 24.04.2012 um 11:35 schrieb Geert Claes:

...

Norbert Hartl wrote

...

Of course, if there is an ugly replacment that can be used if the system is minimised. Having two icon sets introduces the possibility to make the ugly one consume even less memory, e.g. make it black and white.

I have no idea what you just tried to say :) When you say ugly replacement, are you talking about the current ugly icons or do you find Esteban's suggested icons not appealing enough?

It is just an addition to my first statement. If we call the current icon set medium in the sense of medium cutiness and medium memory consumption than there is a new situation with the new nice icons. Igor is right, if the vector world is coming to pharo then it is easy to make really good looking icons in the image. But the memory consumption and CPU intensity will be raised. That contradicts to usage of pharo in a server environment. So what I was saying is that I think that the new icons are great. But then there should be a replacement for it when the image is shrinked. The same happens with the fonts if you shrink. And if the icons are replaced they could even be replaced by something really basic that saves additional memory. On a server with VNC or the like the icons aren't that important and maybe can be removed completely.

More clear now?

Norbert

did i miss something? since when memory consumption for vector graphics takes more space? look at the size of .svg files and compare them with size of .png files for same icons.

There is a difference between storage size and in-memory size. The storage size is important if you put the resource class-based. For the rest you need to decide. Either you render the icon every update from source or you do cache and from then on you have storage size + in-memory size for your icons. If you do fancy stuff automatically which means it probably uses a lot of colors so this can be quite big.

...

Vector data are much more compact. So, actually if you really want to shrink things down, you need to operate with vectors :)

Yes, and then you need a lot of cpu cycles. Just what I said.

...

More CPU for rendering vector graphics? Perhaps. It is of course more expensive than just copying memory from one bitmap to another. But desktop environment requires a lot more complex operations that just copying bits from one form over another one. And also consider the cases where you need to use 5 different operations to simulate just one. (look at famous corner rounder hack).

Again what I said. It is feasible to have good looking stuff. But everything you said is unimportant on a server. I'm just begging you not to forget that. That's all. Nothing against any of your plans. It will make pharo better.

Norbert

Am 24.04.2012 um 14:37 schrieb Igor Stasenko:

On 24 April 2012 14:13, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:

...

Am 24.04.2012 um 14:06 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano:

...

but, Norbert, I don't see the point. In a server you will not have (or *should* not have) a display... so rendering time, etc. is non an issue, because it will not be any... or I'm missing something?

I think most people using pharo on the server are using VNC to maintain them. I do that,too, in lack of a better tool. So in this case there is a display and there are icons. Rendering is not an issue as long as you suspend to UI thread until you need it. So, let me just repeat

...new icons.... cool! ...svg icons.....cool! ...removable icons...cool!

That's basically all I wanted to say.

and this is not preventing an operating systems from having even more rich graphics and still use remote desktop connections? i don't share your concerns.. because we're talking about different terms of use. for desktop applications we need a modern rich graphics and eye candy. this not a question.

for servers you can live perfectly with command-line tools only, and pharoers also working in that direction.. so it is not an exclusive choice where you should pick between one over another. you can have both: minimal memory footprint on server(s) and decent graphics on desktop. i am talking about modular system, where you can (un)load modules at your please, and we're moving towards it.

Igor, I didn't say there should be one approach and that you need to choose. I tried to make explicit that having options is a good thing. And that includes the joy of using a commandline for a server or not. You have no reason to decide for everyone that they should live with commandline tools on the server. I was talking about the near future and you reach far more off. Of course I like to have a tiny pharo image running on a server that lets me connect from my development image and lets me debug/inspect everything from remote where everything is either SVG or opengl. But I don't expect that to happen tomorrow or the day after. There is a need for short term solution. Or to make fun of a quote Don't obscure my reality with your future Norbert

the new icon set is really wonderful. THANKS! On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 10:46 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:

On 24 April 2012 14:54, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:

...

Am 24.04.2012 um 14:37 schrieb Igor Stasenko:

On 24 April 2012 14:13, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:

Am 24.04.2012 um 14:06 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano:

but, Norbert, I don't see the point. In a server you will not have (or *should* not have) a display... so rendering time, etc. is non an issue, because it will not be any... or I'm missing something?

I think most people using pharo on the server are using VNC to maintain them. I do that,too, in lack of a better tool. So in this case there is

a

...

display and there are icons. Rendering is not an issue as long as you suspend to UI thread until you need it.

So, let me just repeat

...new icons.... cool!

...svg icons.....cool!

...removable icons...cool!

That's basically all I wanted to say.

and this is not preventing an operating systems from having even more rich graphics and still use remote desktop connections? i don't share your concerns.. because we're talking about different terms of use. for desktop applications we need a modern rich graphics and eye candy. this not a question.

for servers you can live perfectly with command-line tools only, and pharoers also working in that direction.. so it is not an exclusive choice where you should pick between one over another. you can have both: minimal memory footprint on server(s) and decent graphics on desktop. i am talking about modular system, where you can (un)load modules at your please, and we're moving towards it.

Igor,

I didn't say there should be one approach and that you need to choose. I tried to make explicit that having options is a good thing. And that includes the joy of using a commandline for a server or not. You have no reason to decide for everyone that they should live with commandline tools on the server. I was talking about the near future and you reach far more off. Of course I like to have a tiny pharo image running on a server that lets me connect from my development image and lets me debug/inspect everything from remote where everything is either SVG or opengl. But I don't expect that to happen tomorrow or the day after. There is a need for short term solution. Or to make fun of a quote

Don't obscure my reality with your future

no, i don't want to put you into a cage. my post was primarily to advertise some of my work :)

one of the problems with graphics, is that if you working with bitmap format(s), like icon sets or fonts, you always have to keep multiple resolutions for them.. for different DPI and different themes. With vector graphics this is obviously not an issue. And i making SVG importer mainly to open a rich vector graphics world to pharo. So, you can create graphics using editors like inkscape or other , and then just put it into your image. And i didn't said that you cannot use bitmaps as endpoint format, while using SVG as a source.. so in case if you want to render different resolution bitmaps you can always reproduce them in a couple of minutes..

...

Norbert

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

already checked, it is: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.5/ which I think is compatible enough :) Esteban On Apr 23, 2012, at 5:06 PM, Damien Cassou wrote:

On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 3:28 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote: I just hacked (well, yesterday, I was bored in my room) a new icon set for pharo, based on famfam icons.

Please first check licenses are compatible

-- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

"Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry