We have that list too: Page 3 of http://www.pharo-project.org/download/pictures/be/j32hajf3kjdbsebqo0a9zc5tk8... Or this version: http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-users_lists.pharo.org/2012-May/004059... Now that I see this list again, I feel that it should be part of the image. On 30 Apr 2014, at 23:33, kilon alios <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:

Personally I am very interested to see how developers see Pharo, because the way they see it is also the future of Pharo the directions it is going. So while some may find these type of discussion derailing its very important for the direction of Pharo.

Even though its very important to add code to Pharo and enhance and bug fix, its also very important to have a clear vision that the community agrees on.

The discussion also has raised some important issues of how Pharo is promoted, obviously Promotion of Pharo is a rather huge deal for Pharo future. I see these Emails as the start of a very long process in the future of Pharo where the community tries to feel in the dark its path and the values it represents. Its also important to get the message (Pharo is all about messages afterall) loud and clear to newcomers or people considering giving Pharo a try.

Sean I am definitely interested in the discussion and your opinion, I have very little to contribute to it, but its great to hear the opinion of people that have very large experience of Smalltalk.

Some say "opinions are like assholes everyone has one" (no intention to be rude) but my belief is opinions however wrong they may be, do matter because they reveal personal needs , desires and dreams. Pharo like every other product out there is made to please people and accommodate for these things.

Also these discussions are far from exclusive to Pharo. I am coming from Python there there is the Zen of Pharo.

" • Beautiful is better than ugly. • Explicit is better than implicit. • Simple is better than complex. • Complex is better than complicated. • Flat is better than nested. • Sparse is better than dense. • Readability counts. • Special cases aren't special enough to break the rules. • Although practicality beats purity. • Errors should never pass silently. • Unless explicitly silenced. • In the face of ambiguity, refuse the temptation to guess. • There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it. • Although that way may not be obvious at first unless you're Dutch. • Now is better than never. • Although never is often better than right now. • If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea. • If the implementation is easy to explain, it may be a good idea. • NameSpaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those!

• " This started as a joke from a single guy. Then it was included as a module in python standard library , the moment you import the module it executes a method that prints this text. The joke became something very serious, it is something that many python library authors take as a guide for designing their libraries. This piece of joke has become so serious that currently python libraries uses this set of principles and libraries that don't are labeled by python coders as "unpythonic" which is considered a bad thing.

For me this indicates that a community has chosen a path and most importantly a path they have chosen to walk together as one unit. I don't think there is anything stronger than that.

On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 11:52 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean@clipperadams.com> wrote: onierstrasz wrote

...

117 emails since I checked a few hours ago?

110 of those were mine, sorry :-P Signing off for today...

----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-renamed-to-MuchTalk-tp4757347p4757349.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/13237/Pharo-Zen-values-should-be-in-the-im... On 01 May 2014, at 00:05, kilon alios <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:

yeap definitely sounds a like a good idea to me :)

On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 12:52 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote: We have that list too:

Page 3 of http://www.pharo-project.org/download/pictures/be/j32hajf3kjdbsebqo0a9zc5tk8...

Or this version:

http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-users_lists.pharo.org/2012-May/004059...

Now that I see this list again, I feel that it should be part of the image.

On 30 Apr 2014, at 23:33, kilon alios <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Personally I am very interested to see how developers see Pharo, because the way they see it is also the future of Pharo the directions it is going. So while some may find these type of discussion derailing its very important for the direction of Pharo.

Even though its very important to add code to Pharo and enhance and bug fix, its also very important to have a clear vision that the community agrees on.

The discussion also has raised some important issues of how Pharo is promoted, obviously Promotion of Pharo is a rather huge deal for Pharo future. I see these Emails as the start of a very long process in the future of Pharo where the community tries to feel in the dark its path and the values it represents. Its also important to get the message (Pharo is all about messages afterall) loud and clear to newcomers or people considering giving Pharo a try.

Sean I am definitely interested in the discussion and your opinion, I have very little to contribute to it, but its great to hear the opinion of people that have very large experience of Smalltalk.

Some say "opinions are like assholes everyone has one" (no intention to be rude) but my belief is opinions however wrong they may be, do matter because they reveal personal needs , desires and dreams. Pharo like every other product out there is made to please people and accommodate for these things.

Also these discussions are far from exclusive to Pharo. I am coming from Python there there is the Zen of Pharo.

" • Beautiful is better than ugly. • Explicit is better than implicit. • Simple is better than complex. • Complex is better than complicated. • Flat is better than nested. • Sparse is better than dense. • Readability counts. • Special cases aren't special enough to break the rules. • Although practicality beats purity. • Errors should never pass silently. • Unless explicitly silenced. • In the face of ambiguity, refuse the temptation to guess. • There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it. • Although that way may not be obvious at first unless you're Dutch. • Now is better than never. • Although never is often better than right now. • If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea. • If the implementation is easy to explain, it may be a good idea. • NameSpaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those!

• " This started as a joke from a single guy. Then it was included as a module in python standard library , the moment you import the module it executes a method that prints this text. The joke became something very serious, it is something that many python library authors take as a guide for designing their libraries. This piece of joke has become so serious that currently python libraries uses this set of principles and libraries that don't are labeled by python coders as "unpythonic" which is considered a bad thing.

For me this indicates that a community has chosen a path and most importantly a path they have chosen to walk together as one unit. I don't think there is anything stronger than that.

On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 11:52 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean@clipperadams.com> wrote: onierstrasz wrote

...

117 emails since I checked a few hours ago?

110 of those were mine, sorry :-P Signing off for today...

----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-renamed-to-MuchTalk-tp4757347p4757349.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.