Re: [Pharo-project] About open lively community vs a closed, withdrawn group of programmers
Through Laurent Laffont's tweet 7:47 PM Sep 23rd
Worth the read: "Leaving .net" http://whatupdave.tumblr.com/post/1170718843/leaving-net
This reminds me myself, before i joined wonderful smalltalk community :)
Sorry to be a pain in the back but when I see our current state of practices at the level of continuous integration as a community (not talking just about pharo/squeak) we are not that great. It will change but we took years to backlog. Something sad for me was to see that in VW been agile was just having the XProgramming/TestCase class (I know that they know what I think :)). Been agile means a lot more. Autotest, hudson, better tools, better debugger, code coverage..... this is what we need. Stef
On 29 September 2010 23:36, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
Through Laurent Laffont's tweet 7:47 PM Sep 23rd
Worth the read: "Leaving .net" http://whatupdave.tumblr.com/post/1170718843/leaving-net
This reminds me myself, before i joined wonderful smalltalk community :)
Sorry to be a pain in the back but when I see our current state of practices at the level of continuous integration as a community (not talking just about pharo/squeak) we are not that great. It will change but we took years to backlog. Something sad for me was to see that in VW been agile was just having the XProgramming/TestCase class (I know that they know what I think :)). Been agile means a lot more. Autotest, hudson, better tools, better debugger, code coverage..... this is what we need.
No, but we are working together towards improving our system. This is what you can't have in .net and/or java where community don't have a chance to participate in development process, but have to wait till vendor release new version, and then start using it.
Stef
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-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
2010/9/30 Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com>:
No, but we are working together towards improving our system. This is what you can't have in .net and/or java where community don't have a chance to participate in development process, but have to wait till vendor release new version, and then start using it.
Yes. But it relates mostly to .NET because MS aggressively tries to substitute all the open source libraries with their own "standard" ones (XML, ORM, even unit testing!). But in Java world the situation is a bit different. While users can't affect the language itself, the community makes plenty of libraries just to compensate the poorness of the language. And Sun (now Oracle) does not bother itself with inventing their own. I think the difference between these communities and Smalltalk community results from the nature of Smalltalk language where you can implement some system functionality as a library, while in other lanugages this would require changes made by vendor in the core. George
On 30 September 2010 10:32, George Herolyants <george.herolyants@gmail.com> wrote:
2010/9/30 Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com>:
No, but we are working together towards improving our system. This is what you can't have in .net and/or java where community don't have a chance to participate in development process, but have to wait till vendor release new version, and then start using it.
Yes. But it relates mostly to .NET because MS aggressively tries to substitute all the open source libraries with their own "standard" ones (XML, ORM, even unit testing!). But in Java world the situation is a bit different. While users can't affect the language itself, the community makes plenty of libraries just to compensate the poorness of the language. And Sun (now Oracle) does not bother itself with inventing their own.
I think the difference between these communities and Smalltalk community results from the nature of Smalltalk language where you can implement some system functionality as a library, while in other lanugages this would require changes made by vendor in the core.
Right. And this is done by intent to keep you hooked, so vendor makes sure that there will be buyers of new product releases, because of 'this will be fixed in new version' motto. I think it is ok for end-user products, where you not expecting users to write own programs, but for development tools & libraries, i think this is unacceptable.
George
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
I agree. 2010/9/30 Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com>:
Right. And this is done by intent to keep you hooked, so vendor makes sure that there will be buyers of new product releases, because of 'this will be fixed in new version' motto.
I think it is ok for end-user products, where you not expecting users to write own programs, but for development tools & libraries, i think this is unacceptable.
While users can't affect the language itself
This is not quite true. The Pizza Java extension about generics is now part of Java. Pizza is the first implementation of Java Generics. Pizza has been formulated with the EPFL. Cheers, Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
participants (4)
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Alexandre Bergel -
George Herolyants -
Igor Stasenko -
Stéphane Ducasse