[Pharo-project] '' asNumber -> 'Reading a number failed'
Hi folks: In older images, like 10418, '' asNumber gave me a 0 (zero). But now, I get a 'Reading a number failed'. Is this expected? Perhaps it is due to the fix to this bug: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?can=1&q=1258&colspec=ID%20Type%... any toughs? best Mariano
Yes, I understand the paradigm, nil is nothing is zero, empty is nothing is zero... But frankly, do you think '' forms a valid Number ? In every context ? So yes, this is expected, and can break compatibility, but sometimes this is necessary. If you want to keep this behaviour, you have to use an explicit rule like: asNumberOrZero ^Number readFrom: self ifFail: [^0] Hope this helps... Nicolas 2009/10/20 Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck@gmail.com>:
Hi folks: In older images, like 10418, '' asNumber gave me a 0 (zero). But now, I get a 'Reading a number failed'.
Is this expected?
Perhaps it is due to the fix to this bug:
http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?can=1&q=1258&colspec=ID%20Type%...
any toughs?
best
Mariano
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On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:33 PM, Nicolas Cellier < nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, I understand the paradigm, nil is nothing is zero, empty is nothing is zero... But frankly, do you think '' forms a valid Number ? In every context ? So yes, this is expected, and can break compatibility, but sometimes this is necessary.
If you want to keep this behaviour, you have to use an explicit rule like: asNumberOrZero ^Number readFrom: self ifFail: [^0]
Thanks Nicolas. Now, the question is, do you think we can create this method in String as part of Pharo core? or I should add it to my application? cheers mariano
Hope this helps...
Nicolas
2009/10/20 Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck@gmail.com>:
Hi folks: In older images, like 10418, '' asNumber gave me a 0 (zero). But now, I get a 'Reading a number failed'.
Is this expected?
Perhaps it is due to the fix to this bug:
http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?can=1&q=1258&colspec=ID%20Type%...
any toughs?
best
Mariano
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2009/10/20 Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck@gmail.com>:
On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:33 PM, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, I understand the paradigm, nil is nothing is zero, empty is nothing is zero... But frankly, do you think '' forms a valid Number ? In every context ? So yes, this is expected, and can break compatibility, but sometimes this is necessary.
If you want to keep this behaviour, you have to use an explicit rule like: asNumberOrZero  ^Number readFrom: self ifFail: [^0]
Thanks Nicolas. Now, the question is, do you think we can create this method in String as part of Pharo core? or I should add it to my application?
cheers
mariano
Depends if the pattern was used by many packages or not... It would be stupid to create 10x the same extension to work around a pharo change. Would it be a temporary helper subject to deprecation, or a definitive feature ? I can't tell, and i don't decide, i only suggest. Nicolas
Hope this helps...
Nicolas
2009/10/20 Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck@gmail.com>:
Hi folks: In older images, like 10418, '' asNumber gave me a 0 (zero). But now, I get a 'Reading a number failed'.
Is this expected?
Perhaps it is due to the fix to this bug:
http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?can=1&q=1258&colspec=ID%20Type%...
any toughs?
best
Mariano
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I like asNumberOrZero we could have asNumberOr: aNumber so that we are not bound to Zero and I would include it. Now what the others think? Stef On Oct 20, 2009, at 4:31 AM, Nicolas Cellier wrote:
2009/10/20 Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck@gmail.com>:
On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:33 PM, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, I understand the paradigm, nil is nothing is zero, empty is nothing is zero... But frankly, do you think '' forms a valid Number ? In every context ? So yes, this is expected, and can break compatibility, but sometimes this is necessary.
If you want to keep this behaviour, you have to use an explicit rule like: asNumberOrZero ^Number readFrom: self ifFail: [^0]
Thanks Nicolas. Now, the question is, do you think we can create this method in String as part of Pharo core? or I should add it to my application?
cheers
mariano
Depends if the pattern was used by many packages or not... It would be stupid to create 10x the same extension to work around a pharo change. Would it be a temporary helper subject to deprecation, or a definitive feature ? I can't tell, and i don't decide, i only suggest.
Nicolas
Hope this helps...
Nicolas
2009/10/20 Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck@gmail.com>:
Hi folks: In older images, like 10418, '' asNumber gave me a 0 (zero). But now, I get a 'Reading a number failed'.
Is this expected?
Perhaps it is due to the fix to this bug:
http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?can=1&q=1258&colspec=ID%20Type%...
any toughs?
best
Mariano
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I don't see where are we willing to arrive at. '' asNumber gives zero in several other Smalltalks (Dolphin and VW, for example) and used to work as Mariano mentions in earlier versions of Pharo (which makes me surmise is the way Squeak worked as well). So attempting addressing Nicolas point: the context where '' can be expected is when reading text from some other source (mainly text from a file) into you Pharo application. A library API has to have a reasonable balance between an excruciating "conceptual right" set of calls and the "principle of minimum surprise" for the corner cases in general.
From this discussion, are we saying that for now on in order to have strings converted into numbers if we want to have the behaviour '' returning zero we shall change from '' asNumber to '' asNumberOrZero and this method will call a more general method like this?
Number>>asNumberOrZero ^self asNumberOr: 0 And Number>>asNumberOr: aNumber ^Number readFrom: self ifFail: [^aNumber] Just my .0199999.... Em 20/10/2009 05:26, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> escreveu:
I like asNumberOrZero we could have asNumberOr: aNumber so that we are not bound to Zero and I would include it. Now what the others think? Stef On Oct 20, 2009, at 4:31 AM, Nicolas Cellier wrote:
2009/10/20 Mariano Martinez Peck :
On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:33 PM, Nicolas Cellier wrote:
Yes, I understand the paradigm, nil is nothing is zero, empty is nothing is zero... But frankly, do you think '' forms a valid Number ? In every context ? So yes, this is expected, and can break compatibility, but sometimes this is necessary. If you want to keep this behaviour, you have to use an explicit rule like: asNumberOrZero ^Number readFrom: self ifFail: [^0]
Thanks Nicolas. Now, the question is, do you think we can create this method in String as part of Pharo core? or I should add it to my application? cheers mariano
Depends if the pattern was used by many packages or not... It would be stupid to create 10x the same extension to work around a pharo change. Would it be a temporary helper subject to deprecation, or a definitive feature ? I can't tell, and i don't decide, i only suggest. Nicolas
Hope this helps... Nicolas 2009/10/20 Mariano Martinez Peck :
Hi folks: In older images, like 10418, '' asNumber gave me a 0 (zero). But now, I get a 'Reading a number failed'. Is this expected? Perhaps it is due to the fix to this bug:
http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?can=1&q=1258&colspec=ID%20Type%... any toughs? best Mariano
+1 On 2009-10-20 08:35:17 -0200, csrabak@bol.com.br said:
I don't see where are we willing to arrive at.
'' asNumber gives zero in several other Smalltalks (Dolphin and VW, for example) and used to work as Mariano mentions in earlier versions of Pharo (which makes me surmise is the way Squeak worked as well).
So attempting addressing Nicolas point: the context where '' can be expected is when reading text from some other source (mainly text from a file) into you Pharo application.
A library API has to have a reasonable balance between an excruciating "conceptual right" set of calls and the "principle of minimum surprise" for the corner cases in general.
From this discussion, are we saying that for now on in order to have strings converted into numbers if we want to have the behaviour '' returning zero we shall change from '' asNumber to '' asNumberOrZero and this method will call a more general method like this?
Number>>asNumberOrZero ^self asNumberOr: 0
And
Number>>asNumberOr: aNumber ^Number readFrom: self ifFail: [^aNumber]
Just my .0199999....
Em 20/10/2009 05:26, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> escreveu:
I like asNumberOrZero we could have asNumberOr: aNumber so that we are not bound to Zero and I would include it. Now what the others think? Stef On Oct 20, 2009, at 4:31 AM, Nicolas Cellier wrote:
2009/10/20 Mariano Martinez Peck :
On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:33 PM, Nicolas Cellier wrote:
Yes, I understand the paradigm, nil is nothing is zero, empty is nothing is zero... But frankly, do you think '' forms a valid Number ? In every context ? So yes, this is expected, and can break compatibility, but sometimes this is necessary. If you want to keep this behaviour, you have to use an explicit rule like: asNumberOrZero ^Number readFrom: self ifFail: [^0]
Thanks Nicolas. Now, the question is, do you think we can create this method in String as part of Pharo core? or I should add it to my application? cheers mariano
Depends if the pattern was used by many packages or not... It would be stupid to create 10x the same extension to work around a pharo change. Would it be a temporary helper subject to deprecation, or a definitive feature ? I can't tell, and i don't decide, i only suggest. Nicolas
Hope this helps... Nicolas 2009/10/20 Mariano Martinez Peck :
Hi folks: In older images, like 10418, '' asNumber gave me a 0 (zero). But now, I get a 'Reading a number failed'. Is this expected? Perhaps it is due to the fix to this bug:
http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?can=1&q=1258&colspec=ID%20Type%... any
toughs? best Mariano
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2009/10/20 <csrabak@bol.com.br>:
I don't see where are we willing to arrive at.
'' asNumber gives zero in several other Smalltalks (Dolphin and VW, for example) and used to work as Mariano mentions in earlier versions of Pharo (which makes me surmise is the way Squeak worked as well).
So attempting addressing Nicolas point: the context where '' can be expected is when reading text from some other source (mainly text from a file) into you Pharo application.
A library API has to have a reasonable balance between an excruciating "conceptual right" set of calls and the "principle of minimum surprise" for the corner cases in general.
From this discussion, are we saying that for now on in order to have strings converted into numbers if we want to have the behaviour '' returning zero we shall change from '' asNumber to '' asNumberOrZero and this method will call a more general method like this?
Number>>asNumberOrZero ^self asNumberOr: 0
And
Number>>asNumberOr: aNumber ^Number readFrom: self ifFail: [^aNumber]
Just my .0199999....
If this is an identified inter-dialect feature, then some applications will rely on it, and then yes we SHOULD maintain the feature. But we can in no way keep all the silly other cases. However, did you try these in other dialects ' ' asNumber. 'a' asNumber. 'b2' asNumber. etc... I guess VW & Dolphin should fail in all these cases... Squeak did not and would answer 0 in most cases, and that's what I don't want to see anymore... Another question is should we authorize non blank trailing characters ? I think no. '2r' asNumber. '2 + 3' asNumber. etc.. If the feature is OK, I would say: asNumber | strm num | self isEmpty: [^0]. strm := self readStream. strm skipSeparators. num := Number readFrom: strm. "<- if it fails, this message will signal an Error..." strm skipSeparators atEnd ifFalse: [self error: 'I do not represent a valid number']. ^num Nicolas
Em 20/10/2009 05:26, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> escreveu:
 I like asNumberOrZero we could  have asNumberOr: aNumber so that we are not bound  to Zero and I would include it.  Now what the others think?  Stef  On Oct 20, 2009, at 4:31 AM, Nicolas Cellier wrote:
2009/10/20 Mariano Martinez Peck :
On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:33 PM, Nicolas Cellier wrote:
Yes, I understand the paradigm, nil is nothing is zero, empty is nothing is zero...  But frankly, do you think  '' forms a valid Number ? In  every context ?  So yes, this  is expected, and can break compatibility, but sometimes this is necessary. If you want to keep this  behaviour, you have to use an explicit rule like: asNumberOrZero ^Number readFrom: self ifFail: [^0]
Thanks Nicolas. Now, the question  is, do you think we can create this method in  String as part of Pharo core? or  I should add it to my application? cheers mariano
Depends if  the pattern  was used by  many packages or  not...  It would be stupid to create 10x  the same extension to work around a pharo  change.  Would  it  be  a  temporary  helper  subject  to deprecation, or a definitive feature  ?  I can't tell, and i don't decide, i only suggest. Nicolas
Hope this helps... Nicolas 2009/10/20 Mariano Martinez Peck :
Hi folks: In older images, like  10418, '' asNumber gave me a 0 (zero).  But now, I get a 'Reading a number failed'. Is this expected? Perhaps it is due to the fix to this bug:
http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?can=1&q=1258&colspec=ID%20Type%... any toughs? best Mariano
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Em 20/10/2009 10:04, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> escreveu:
2009/10/20 :
I don't see where are we willing to arrive at.
'' asNumber gives zero in several other Smalltalks (Dolphin and VW, for example) and used to work as Mariano mentions in earlier versions of Pharo (which makes me surmise is the way Squeak worked as well).
So attempting addressing Nicolas point: the context where '' can be expected is when reading text from some other source (mainly text from a file) into you Pharo application.
A library API has to have a reasonable balance between an excruciating "conceptual right" set of calls and the "principle of minimum surprise" for the corner cases in general.
From this discussion, are we saying that for now on in order to have strings converted into numbers if we want to have the behaviour '' returning zero we shall change from '' asNumber to '' asNumberOrZero and this method will call a more general method like this?
Number>>asNumberOrZero ^self asNumberOr: 0
And
Number>>asNumberOr: aNumber ^Number readFrom: self ifFail: [^aNumber]
Just my .0199999....
If this is an identified inter-dialect feature, then some applications will rely on it, and then yes we SHOULD maintain the feature.
Yes I think the crux is identifying if it is a feature that has become a 'de facto standard' or not. . .
But we can in no way keep all the silly other cases. However, did you try these in other dialects
FWIW:
' ' asNumber.
Returns 0 in VW and an exception in Dolphin (note that if you put '' instead of ' ' in Dolphin it returns zero instead)
'a' asNumber.
Returns 0 in VW and an exception in Dolphin.
'b2' asNumber.
Returns 0 in VW and an exception in Dolphin.
etc...
ST/X generates exceptions for all the cases above.
I guess VW & Dolphin should fail in all these cases... Squeak did not and would answer 0 in most cases, and that's what I don't want to see anymore...
Another question is should we authorize non blank trailing characters ? I think no. '2r' asNumber. '2 + 3' asNumber. etc..
We had a discussion about this in another thread but we did not arrived at a final position if memory serves me. [snipped] HTH -- Cesar Rabak
2009/10/20 <csrabak@bol.com.br>:
Em 20/10/2009 10:04, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> escreveu:
2009/10/20 Â :
I don't see where are we willing to arrive at.
'' asNumber gives zero in several other Smalltalks (Dolphin and VW, for example) and used to work as Mariano mentions in earlier versions of Pharo (which makes me surmise is the way Squeak worked as well).
So attempting addressing Nicolas point: the context where '' can be expected is when reading text from some other source (mainly text from a file) into you Pharo application.
A library API has to have a reasonable balance between an excruciating "conceptual right" set of calls and the "principle of minimum surprise" for the corner cases in general.
From this discussion, are we saying that for now on in order to have strings converted into numbers if we want to have the behaviour '' returning zero we shall change from '' asNumber to '' asNumberOrZero and this method will call a more general method like this?
Number>>asNumberOrZero ^self asNumberOr: 0
And
Number>>asNumberOr: aNumber ^Number readFrom: self ifFail: [^aNumber]
Just my .0199999....
If this is an identified inter-dialect feature, then some applications will rely on it, and then yes we SHOULD maintain the feature.
Yes I think the crux is identifying if it is a feature that has become a 'de facto standard' or not. . .
But we can in no way keep all the silly other cases. However, did you try these in other dialects
FWIW:
' ' asNumber.
Returns 0 in VW and an exception in Dolphin (note that if you put '' instead of ' ' in Dolphin it returns zero instead)
'a' asNumber.
Returns 0 in VW and an exception in Dolphin.
'b2' asNumber.
Returns 0 in VW and an exception in Dolphin.
etc...
ST/X generates exceptions for all the cases above.
I guess VW & Dolphin should fail in all these cases... Squeak did not and would answer 0 in most cases, and that's what I don't want to see anymore...
Another question is should we authorize non blank trailing characters ? I think no. '2r' asNumber. '2 + 3' asNumber. etc..
We had a discussion about this in another thread but we did not arrived at a final position if memory serves me.
[snipped]
HTH
In squeak, that started almost 4 years ago, and I remember some complaints too in vwnc list around that time. http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2006-April/103137.htm... http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=3512 Nicolas
-- Cesar Rabak
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Ok. I am agree '' asNUmber is wrong and should rise an error. I was just asking because in other smalltalks (where it is also wrong) it also returned zero. My concern is about portability between dialects. If people find porting stuff to Pharo difficult, they won't do it. So, as suggested, I would implement, at least: Number>>asNumberOrZero ^self asNumberOr: 0 And Number>>asNumberOr: aNumber ^Number readFrom: self ifFail: [^aNumber] Can we all agree with this ? On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 11:55 AM, Nicolas Cellier < nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
2009/10/20 <csrabak@bol.com.br>:
Em 20/10/2009 10:04, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> escreveu:
2009/10/20 :
I don't see where are we willing to arrive at.
'' asNumber gives zero in several other Smalltalks (Dolphin and VW, for example) and used to work as Mariano mentions in earlier versions of Pharo (which makes me surmise is the way Squeak worked as well).
So attempting addressing Nicolas point: the context where '' can be expected is when reading text from some other source (mainly text from a file) into you Pharo application.
A library API has to have a reasonable balance between an excruciating "conceptual right" set of calls and the "principle of minimum surprise" for the corner cases in general.
From this discussion, are we saying that for now on in order to have strings converted into numbers if we want to have the behaviour '' returning zero we shall change from '' asNumber to '' asNumberOrZero and this method will call a more general method like this?
Number>>asNumberOrZero ^self asNumberOr: 0
And
Number>>asNumberOr: aNumber ^Number readFrom: self ifFail: [^aNumber]
Just my .0199999....
If this is an identified inter-dialect feature, then some applications will rely on it, and then yes we SHOULD maintain the feature.
Yes I think the crux is identifying if it is a feature that has become a 'de facto standard' or not. . .
But we can in no way keep all the silly other cases. However, did you try these in other dialects
FWIW:
' ' asNumber.
Returns 0 in VW and an exception in Dolphin (note that if you put '' instead of ' ' in Dolphin it returns zero instead)
'a' asNumber.
Returns 0 in VW and an exception in Dolphin.
'b2' asNumber.
Returns 0 in VW and an exception in Dolphin.
etc...
ST/X generates exceptions for all the cases above.
I guess VW & Dolphin should fail in all these cases... Squeak did not and would answer 0 in most cases, and that's what I don't want to see anymore...
Another question is should we authorize non blank trailing characters ? I think no. '2r' asNumber. '2 + 3' asNumber. etc..
We had a discussion about this in another thread but we did not arrived at a final position if memory serves me.
[snipped]
HTH
In squeak, that started almost 4 years ago, and I remember some complaints too in vwnc list around that time.
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2006-April/103137.htm... http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=3512
Nicolas
-- Cesar Rabak
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Hi guys we talked about it at the end of the sprint and we came up to the conclusion that we should have the two methods: - asNumber (or with another name) raising an error - squeezeNUmberOutOfStringOr: aNumber that return what is can or aNumber Then we learned that this is not a good idea to do a lot of changes at the end of a release phase. So adrian rollbacked the changes and we should get a solution (two methods in 1.1 early). Stef
participants (5)
-
csrabak＠bol.com.br -
Esteban Lorenzano -
Mariano Martinez Peck -
Nicolas Cellier -
Stéphane Ducasse