Beacon and SystemLogger united
Hi what I like with conferences like ESUG is that we can meet other people. We got some great discussions with Doru and Norbert about logging. And we will unite the two frameworks into a a variation of Beacon. Thinking about it, I clearly overreacted when Doru announced Beacon and I'm clear with it. I'm not an easy guy from that perspective but I have no problem to try to understand and recognize other ideas. I think that this is partly the effect of mail communication. Retrospectively I was so into wanted to remove all these strings from everywhere that I received Beacon (which at the end was trying to help defining a cool logger) as a sign that I lost my energy on building SystemLogger. Now I think that if I would not have built SystemLogger, we would not have got Beacon and our discussions would have been way poorer. So we will start to migrate some of the SystemLogger code to Beacon, rename some Beacon class, and write a new documentation and integrate all that into Pharo. Stef
stepharo wrote
I received Beacon (which at the end was trying to help defining a cool logger) as a sign that I lost my energy on building SystemLogger. Now I think that if I would not have built SystemLogger, we would not have got Beacon and our discussions would have been way poorer.
This is real wisdom. I too struggle with what appears to be duplication of efforts, but I'm reminded of two related themes which Alan Kay talks about a lot: - evolution is closer to a random walk with a slight bias than a straight line - in biology, what often appears in human illustration/simulation as components interacting in lock-step as if on a track is actually fortuitous, made possible by the tremendous speed and energy of everything going on in the cell So, as you discovered, and I need to be repeatedly reminded of, there is no perfect world where the stars align and each piece moves with speed and precision into its predestined place in the whole. There is only a sloppy, often frustrating, two-steps-forward-one-step-back frenzy where what comes out on the other side is hopefully better than what we started with. Said more simply: "this is what winning looks like" ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Beacon-and-SystemLogger-united-tp4773973p4773975.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
:) Some guys like me and (camillo) for example are more in straight line thinking but you are so right. Stef On 20/8/14 18:53, Sean P. DeNigris wrote: > stepharo wrote >> I received Beacon (which at the end was trying to help defining a cool >> logger) as a sign that I lost my energy on building SystemLogger. Now I >> think that if I would not have built SystemLogger, we would not have got >> Beacon and our discussions would have been way poorer. > This is real wisdom. I too struggle with what appears to be duplication of > efforts, but I'm reminded of two related themes which Alan Kay talks about a > lot: > - evolution is closer to a random walk with a slight bias than a straight > line > - in biology, what often appears in human illustration/simulation as > components interacting in lock-step as if on a track is actually fortuitous, > made possible by the tremendous speed and energy of everything going on in > the cell > > So, as you discovered, and I need to be repeatedly reminded of, there is no > perfect world where the stars align and each piece moves with speed and > precision into its predestined place in the whole. There is only a sloppy, > often frustrating, two-steps-forward-one-step-back frenzy where what comes > out on the other side is hopefully better than what we started with. Said > more simply: "this is what winning looks like" > > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Beacon-and-SystemLogger-united-tp4773973p4773975.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > >
Hi, Thanks for this message. We are all humans here and feelings do play an important role. And, indeed, mail does not help much to alleviate the problem. But, the cool thing about this community is that even if our opinions diverge significantly, in the long run we find ways to bring them together. Things in our community move at such a pace that it is sometimes hard to stop and take the other point of view into account. It happened to me as well, and I believe it happens to everyone. That is a natural consequence of growth. But, as long as we focus on the long term, eventually ideas win in spite of immediate reactions. It just hit me now: "Pharo is yours" is not a statement that only the Pharo board makes. It's a statement that everyone of us should make because it gets the ego out of the equation (you have no idea how hard that is for me :)). I think we are actually doing that. This is probably the primary reason why it is so exciting to be here. Enough said. Let's get back to creating the future. Everything else is just details :). Cheers, Doru On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 11:09 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
:)
Some guys like me and (camillo) for example are more in straight line thinking but you are so right.
Stef
On 20/8/14 18:53, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:
stepharo wrote
I received Beacon (which at the end was trying to help defining a cool logger) as a sign that I lost my energy on building SystemLogger. Now I think that if I would not have built SystemLogger, we would not have got Beacon and our discussions would have been way poorer.
This is real wisdom. I too struggle with what appears to be duplication of efforts, but I'm reminded of two related themes which Alan Kay talks about a lot: - evolution is closer to a random walk with a slight bias than a straight line - in biology, what often appears in human illustration/simulation as components interacting in lock-step as if on a track is actually fortuitous, made possible by the tremendous speed and energy of everything going on in the cell
So, as you discovered, and I need to be repeatedly reminded of, there is no perfect world where the stars align and each piece moves with speed and precision into its predestined place in the whole. There is only a sloppy, often frustrating, two-steps-forward-one-step-back frenzy where what comes out on the other side is hopefully better than what we started with. Said more simply: "this is what winning looks like"
----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Beacon- and-SystemLogger-united-tp4773973p4773975.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"
It just hit me now: "Pharo is yours" is not a statement that only the Pharo board makes. It's a statement that everyone of us should make because it gets the ego out of the equation (you have no idea how hard that is for me :)). I think we are actually doing that. This is probably the primary reason why it is so exciting to be here. I never thought carefully about this angle but this is really true from day one.
Stef
It is exciting to be here indeed. At the same time, it is not always that reassuring :-) Phil On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:42 AM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
It just hit me now: "Pharo is yours" is not a statement that only the
Pharo board makes. It's a statement that everyone of us should make because it gets the ego out of the equation (you have no idea how hard that is for me :)). I think we are actually doing that. This is probably the primary reason why it is so exciting to be here.
I never thought carefully about this angle but this is really true from day one.
Stef
I'm glad we could get together and settle a few things. And it didn't take long. That is the advantage to meet in person. And the things we decided are a step forward. So thanks, Norbert Am 20.08.2014 um 18:42 schrieb stepharo <stepharo@free.fr>:
Hi
what I like with conferences like ESUG is that we can meet other people. We got some great discussions with Doru and Norbert about logging. And we will unite the two frameworks into a a variation of Beacon.
Thinking about it, I clearly overreacted when Doru announced Beacon and I'm clear with it. I'm not an easy guy from that perspective but I have no problem to try to understand and recognize other ideas. I think that this is partly the effect of mail communication. Retrospectively I was so into wanted to remove all these strings from everywhere that I received Beacon (which at the end was trying to help defining a cool logger) as a sign that I lost my energy on building SystemLogger. Now I think that if I would not have built SystemLogger, we would not have got Beacon and our discussions would have been way poorer. So we will start to migrate some of the SystemLogger code to Beacon, rename some Beacon class, and write a new documentation and integrate all that into Pharo.
Stef
participants (5)
-
Norbert Hartl -
phil＠highoctane.be -
Sean P. DeNigris -
stepharo -
Tudor Girba