[Pharo-project] Help menu disappeared [WAS] [ANN] Pharo-1.1-11400-rc1dev10.06.1
Hi Stef,
do you think that all the good energy that we put on pharo can be summarized >that way?
No, why do you think so? Please dont get off-topic. We talk about a menu here - nobody lamented about Pharo in general. Please reread what I wrote: "Moving menues around is throwing eggs onto you end users" I think it was clear from my mail that moving KNOWN menues around from time to time is IMHO a bad idea. Maybe you disagree, but I'm still keep this opinion. So I dislike the idea of leaving it for now and MOVE the Help menu LATER (as Adrian suggested) since this is what confuses people, especially since user help is something really important. We can discuss it now, keep it or fix it. So we can avoid that moving menues from time to time will lead to irritation.
We waited a bit until we got more convinced that we should move it
Second time you write "we". For me it is still not clear who discussed it (you and Adrian?) and where and which arguments lead to the decision. Please tell us so we can also understand your point of view. Thx T. -- GMX DSL: Internet-, Telefon- und Handy-Flat ab 19,99 EUR/mtl. Bis zu 150 EUR Startguthaben inklusive! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl
Torsten, I understand your comment wasn't against Pharo in general but still I think arguments like this do not help in finding the best solution, which is what we should strive for. The rationale for moving the help menu was basically what I said before - it was a single lonely item inside a submenu (we didn't know that Pharo adds more submenus so this point only holds for PharoCore) - the help browser does not provide (much) content yet and hence is of no big help at the moment My current point of view is that since we don't have a helpful help system (yet) it is not really important that the help menu is at the top level. But since a couple of people strongly argue for putting the help back into the main menu I'm also ok with reverting the change. On another note, I don't agree with you that we should not move menus around. If I hadn't carefully reorganized the menus of Pharo two years ago, our menus would still be the same mess as in a previous Squeak version. Of course stability is good, but it should not hinder us to clean up and optimize. Moving a menu item to a better place may be annoying at first but is quickly amortized. Cheers, Adrian On Jun 14, 2010, at 16:43 , Torsten Bergmann wrote:
Hi Stef,
do you think that all the good energy that we put on pharo can be summarized >that way?
No, why do you think so? Please dont get off-topic. We talk about a menu here - nobody lamented about Pharo in general. Please reread what I wrote:
"Moving menues around is throwing eggs onto you end users"
I think it was clear from my mail that moving KNOWN menues around from time to time is IMHO a bad idea. Maybe you disagree, but I'm still keep this opinion.
So I dislike the idea of leaving it for now and MOVE the Help menu LATER (as Adrian suggested) since this is what confuses people, especially since user help is something really important.
We can discuss it now, keep it or fix it. So we can avoid that moving menues from time to time will lead to irritation.
We waited a bit until we got more convinced that we should move it
Second time you write "we". For me it is still not clear who discussed it (you and Adrian?) and where and which arguments lead to the decision. Please tell us so we can also understand your point of view.
Thx T.
-- GMX DSL: Internet-, Telefon- und Handy-Flat ab 19,99 EUR/mtl. Bis zu 150 EUR Startguthaben inklusive! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
+1 On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Adrian Lienhard <adi@netstyle.ch> wrote:
Torsten, I understand your comment wasn't against Pharo in general but still I think arguments like this do not help in finding the best solution, which is what we should strive for.
The rationale for moving the help menu was basically what I said before - it was a single lonely item inside a submenu (we didn't know that Pharo adds more submenus so this point only holds for PharoCore) - the help browser does not provide (much) content yet and hence is of no big help at the moment
My current point of view is that since we don't have a helpful help system (yet) it is not really important that the help menu is at the top level. But since a couple of people strongly argue for putting the help back into the main menu I'm also ok with reverting the change.
On another note, I don't agree with you that we should not move menus around. If I hadn't carefully reorganized the menus of Pharo two years ago, our menus would still be the same mess as in a previous Squeak version. Of course stability is good, but it should not hinder us to clean up and optimize. Moving a menu item to a better place may be annoying at first but is quickly amortized.
Cheers, Adrian
On Jun 14, 2010, at 16:43 , Torsten Bergmann wrote:
Hi Stef,
do you think that all the good energy that we put on pharo can be summarized >that way?
No, why do you think so? Please dont get off-topic. We talk about a menu here - nobody lamented about Pharo in general. Please reread what I wrote:
"Moving menues around is throwing eggs onto you end users"
I think it was clear from my mail that moving KNOWN menues around from time to time is IMHO a bad idea. Maybe you disagree, but I'm still keep this opinion.
So I dislike the idea of leaving it for now and MOVE the Help menu LATER (as Adrian suggested) since this is what confuses people, especially since user help is something really important.
We can discuss it now, keep it or fix it. So we can avoid that moving menues from time to time will lead to irritation.
We waited a bit until we got more convinced that we should move it
Second time you write "we". For me it is still not clear who discussed it (you and Adrian?) and where and which arguments lead to the decision. Please tell us so we can also understand your point of view.
Thx T.
-- GMX DSL: Internet-, Telefon- und Handy-Flat ab 19,99 EUR/mtl. Bis zu 150 EUR Startguthaben inklusive! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 5:17 PM, Adrian Lienhard <adi@netstyle.ch> wrote:
Torsten, I understand your comment wasn't against Pharo in general but still I think arguments like this do not help in finding the best solution, which is what we should strive for.
The rationale for moving the help menu was basically what I said before - it was a single lonely item inside a submenu (we didn't know that Pharo adds more submenus so this point only holds for PharoCore)
Again. Who cares PharoCore? we are talking about PharoDev.
- the help browser does not provide (much) content yet and hence is of no big help at the moment
And maybe having a more accesisble menu will help to that. There is also the ProfBrower, Re open the welcome workspace, what it is now in system about, and why not put back the list of shortcuts?
My current point of view is that since we don't have a helpful help system (yet) it is not really important that the help menu is at the top level. But since a couple of people strongly argue for putting the help back into the main menu I'm also ok with reverting the change.
On another note, I don't agree with you that we should not move menus around. If I hadn't carefully reorganized the menus of Pharo two years ago, our menus would still be the same mess as in a previous Squeak version. Of course stability is good, but it should not hinder us to clean up and optimize. Moving a menu item to a better place may be annoying at first but is quickly amortized.
agree.
Cheers, Adrian
On Jun 14, 2010, at 16:43 , Torsten Bergmann wrote:
Hi Stef,
do you think that all the good energy that we put on pharo can be summarized >that way?
No, why do you think so? Please dont get off-topic. We talk about a menu here - nobody lamented about Pharo in general. Please reread what I wrote:
"Moving menues around is throwing eggs onto you end users"
I think it was clear from my mail that moving KNOWN menues around from time to time is IMHO a bad idea. Maybe you disagree, but I'm still keep this opinion.
So I dislike the idea of leaving it for now and MOVE the Help menu LATER (as Adrian suggested) since this is what confuses people, especially since user help is something really important.
We can discuss it now, keep it or fix it. So we can avoid that moving menues from time to time will lead to irritation.
We waited a bit until we got more convinced that we should move it
Second time you write "we". For me it is still not clear who discussed it (you and Adrian?) and where and which arguments lead to the decision. Please tell us so we can also understand your point of view.
Thx T.
-- GMX DSL: Internet-, Telefon- und Handy-Flat ab 19,99 EUR/mtl. Bis zu 150 EUR Startguthaben inklusive! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Again. Who cares PharoCore? we are talking about PharoDev.
I do because if I click 20 times per hour on the wrong item in the menu then it means that it is not well placed.
- the help browser does not provide (much) content yet and hence is of no big help at the moment
And maybe having a more accesisble menu will help to that. There is also the ProfBrower, Re open the welcome workspace, what it is now in system about, and why not put back the list of shortcuts?
because the list was plain wrong!
My current point of view is that since we don't have a helpful help system (yet) it is not really important that the help menu is at the top level. But since a couple of people strongly argue for putting the help back into the main menu I'm also ok with reverting the change.
On another note, I don't agree with you that we should not move menus around. If I hadn't carefully reorganized the menus of Pharo two years ago, our menus would still be the same mess as in a previous Squeak version. Of course stability is good, but it should not hinder us to clean up and optimize. Moving a menu item to a better place may be annoying at first but is quickly amortized.
agree.
Cheers, Adrian
On Jun 14, 2010, at 16:43 , Torsten Bergmann wrote:
Hi Stef,
do you think that all the good energy that we put on pharo can be summarized >that way?
No, why do you think so? Please dont get off-topic. We talk about a menu here - nobody lamented about Pharo in general. Please reread what I wrote:
"Moving menues around is throwing eggs onto you end users"
I think it was clear from my mail that moving KNOWN menues around from time to time is IMHO a bad idea. Maybe you disagree, but I'm still keep this opinion.
So I dislike the idea of leaving it for now and MOVE the Help menu LATER (as Adrian suggested) since this is what confuses people, especially since user help is something really important.
We can discuss it now, keep it or fix it. So we can avoid that moving menues from time to time will lead to irritation.
We waited a bit until we got more convinced that we should move it
Second time you write "we". For me it is still not clear who discussed it (you and Adrian?) and where and which arguments lead to the decision. Please tell us so we can also understand your point of view.
Thx T.
-- GMX DSL: Internet-, Telefon- und Handy-Flat ab 19,99 EUR/mtl. Bis zu 150 EUR Startguthaben inklusive! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Adrian, I for one appreciate the changes to the menus. The improved icons are very helpful too, especially for finding the file list. I don't think you will regret restoring the help menu. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Adrian Lienhard Sent: Monday, June 14, 2010 10:18 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Help menu disappeared [WAS] [ANN] Pharo-1.1-11400-rc1dev10.06.1 Torsten, I understand your comment wasn't against Pharo in general but still I think arguments like this do not help in finding the best solution, which is what we should strive for. The rationale for moving the help menu was basically what I said before - it was a single lonely item inside a submenu (we didn't know that Pharo adds more submenus so this point only holds for PharoCore) - the help browser does not provide (much) content yet and hence is of no big help at the moment My current point of view is that since we don't have a helpful help system (yet) it is not really important that the help menu is at the top level. But since a couple of people strongly argue for putting the help back into the main menu I'm also ok with reverting the change. On another note, I don't agree with you that we should not move menus around. If I hadn't carefully reorganized the menus of Pharo two years ago, our menus would still be the same mess as in a previous Squeak version. Of course stability is good, but it should not hinder us to clean up and optimize. Moving a menu item to a better place may be annoying at first but is quickly amortized. Cheers, Adrian On Jun 14, 2010, at 16:43 , Torsten Bergmann wrote:
Hi Stef,
do you think that all the good energy that we put on pharo can be summarized >that way?
No, why do you think so? Please dont get off-topic. We talk about a menu here - nobody lamented about Pharo in general. Please reread what I wrote:
"Moving menues around is throwing eggs onto you end users"
I think it was clear from my mail that moving KNOWN menues around from time to time is IMHO a bad idea. Maybe you disagree, but I'm still keep this opinion.
So I dislike the idea of leaving it for now and MOVE the Help menu LATER (as Adrian suggested) since this is what confuses people, especially since user help is something really important.
We can discuss it now, keep it or fix it. So we can avoid that moving menues from time to time will lead to irritation.
We waited a bit until we got more convinced that we should move it
Second time you write "we". For me it is still not clear who discussed it (you and Adrian?) and where and which arguments lead to the decision. Please tell us so we can also understand your point of view.
Thx T.
-- GMX DSL: Internet-, Telefon- und Handy-Flat ab 19,99 EUR/mtl. Bis zu 150 EUR Startguthaben inklusive! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
+ 2^10000000000000 Stef On Jun 14, 2010, at 5:17 PM, Adrian Lienhard wrote:
Torsten, I understand your comment wasn't against Pharo in general but still I think arguments like this do not help in finding the best solution, which is what we should strive for.
The rationale for moving the help menu was basically what I said before - it was a single lonely item inside a submenu (we didn't know that Pharo adds more submenus so this point only holds for PharoCore) - the help browser does not provide (much) content yet and hence is of no big help at the moment
My current point of view is that since we don't have a helpful help system (yet) it is not really important that the help menu is at the top level. But since a couple of people strongly argue for putting the help back into the main menu I'm also ok with reverting the change.
On another note, I don't agree with you that we should not move menus around. If I hadn't carefully reorganized the menus of Pharo two years ago, our menus would still be the same mess as in a previous Squeak version. Of course stability is good, but it should not hinder us to clean up and optimize. Moving a menu item to a better place may be annoying at first but is quickly amortized.
Cheers, Adrian
On Jun 14, 2010, at 16:43 , Torsten Bergmann wrote:
Hi Stef,
do you think that all the good energy that we put on pharo can be summarized >that way?
No, why do you think so? Please dont get off-topic. We talk about a menu here - nobody lamented about Pharo in general. Please reread what I wrote:
"Moving menues around is throwing eggs onto you end users"
I think it was clear from my mail that moving KNOWN menues around from time to time is IMHO a bad idea. Maybe you disagree, but I'm still keep this opinion.
So I dislike the idea of leaving it for now and MOVE the Help menu LATER (as Adrian suggested) since this is what confuses people, especially since user help is something really important.
We can discuss it now, keep it or fix it. So we can avoid that moving menues from time to time will lead to irritation.
We waited a bit until we got more convinced that we should move it
Second time you write "we". For me it is still not clear who discussed it (you and Adrian?) and where and which arguments lead to the decision. Please tell us so we can also understand your point of view.
Thx T.
-- GMX DSL: Internet-, Telefon- und Handy-Flat ab 19,99 EUR/mtl. Bis zu 150 EUR Startguthaben inklusive! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
participants (6)
-
Adrian Lienhard -
Elliot Finley -
Mariano Martinez Peck -
Schwab,Wilhelm K -
Stéphane Ducasse -
Torsten Bergmann