Torsten, I understand your comment wasn't against Pharo in general but still I think arguments like this do not help in finding the best solution, which is what we should strive for.

The rationale for moving the help menu was basically what I said before
- it was a single lonely item inside a submenu (we didn't know that Pharo adds more submenus so this point only holds for PharoCore)

- the help browser does not provide (much) content yet and hence is of no big help at the moment

My current point of view is that since we don't have a helpful help system (yet) it is not really important that the help menu is at the top level. But since a couple of people strongly argue for putting the help back into the main menu I'm also ok with reverting the change.�

On another note, I don't agree with you that we should not move menus around. If I hadn't carefully reorganized the menus of Pharo two years ago, our menus would still be the same mess as in a previous Squeak version. Of course stability is good, but it should not hinder us to clean up and optimize. Moving a menu item to a better place may be annoying at first but is quickly amortized.

Cheers,
Adrian

On Jun 14, 2010, at 16:43 , Torsten Bergmann wrote:

> Hi Stef,
>
>> do you think that all the good energy that we put on pharo can be summarized >that way?
>
> No, why do you think so? Please dont get off-topic. We talk
> about a menu here - nobody lamented about Pharo in general.
> Please reread what I wrote:
>
> �"Moving menues around is throwing eggs onto you end users"
>
> I think it was clear from my mail that moving KNOWN menues
> around from time to time is IMHO a bad idea. Maybe you disagree,
> but I'm still keep this opinion.
>
> So I dislike the idea of leaving it for now and MOVE the Help
> menu LATER (as Adrian suggested) since this is what confuses people,
> especially since user help is something really important.
>
> We can discuss it now, keep it or fix it. So we can avoid that
> moving menues from time to time will lead to irritation.
>
>> We waited a bit until we got more convinced that we should move it
>
> Second time you write "we". For me it is still not clear who
> discussed it (you and Adrian?) and where and which arguments lead
> to the decision. Please tell us so we can also understand your point of view.
>
> Thx
> T.
>
>
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