I think that this is not like that that he will really bring smalltalk back. Concertation is equals to death. Have a look at Squeak. Stef PS: a good friend of mine once told me: "do not shit where you eat" and I keep that in mind even when cleaning squeak. I know that this more difficult to build things than to clean them. Still I would not let this blog out there because it will not produce anything positive, just scared more people from Smalltalk.

Hi all - as I said in my subject, I've already posted this on Squeak- Dev, but I thought those on here who don't subscribe to that list might be interested, too:

http://www.robvens.nl/en/blog/The-Smalltalk-Trap.html

Cheers, Simon

*******************************************************************************************************************************************

This email is from Pinesoft Limited. Its contents are confidential to the intended recipient(s) at the email address(es) to which it has been addressed. It may not be disclosed to or used by anyone other than the addressee(s), nor may it be copied in anyway. If received in error, please contact the sender, then delete it from your system. Although this email and attachments are believed to be free of virus, or any other defect which might affect any computer or IT system into which they are received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that they are virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Pinesoft for any loss or damage arising in any way from receipt or use thereof.

*******************************************************************************************************************************************

Pinesoft Limited are registered in England, Registered number: 2914825. Registered office: 266-268 High Street, Waltham Cross, Herts, EN8 7EA

_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Hi Stef, No, not in particular: I thought it was an interesting conversation piece, rather than something I thought was a good idea (I actually had no opinion one way or the other). Given Pharo's a fork, I thought you (meaning both the group and you personally) would have an opinion on it, and I was interested to know what it was. Judging by your other post, I was right :) Cheers, Simon On 20 Sep 2008, at 21:16, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

Hi simon

Why did you post this here. Because we forked? Sorry but we had to.

Stef

...

Hi all - as I said in my subject, I've already posted this on Squeak-Dev, but I thought those on here who don't subscribe to that list might be interested, too:

http://www.robvens.nl/en/blog/The-Smalltalk-Trap.html

Cheers, Simon

*******************************************************************************************************************************************

This email is from Pinesoft Limited. Its contents are confidential to the intended recipient(s) at the email address(es) to which it has been addressed. It may not be disclosed to or used by anyone other than the addressee(s), nor may it be copied in anyway. If received in error, please contact the sender, then delete it from your system. Although this email and attachments are believed to be free of virus, or any other defect which might affect any computer or IT system into which they are received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that they are virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Pinesoft for any loss or damage arising in any way from receipt or use thereof.

*******************************************************************************************************************************************

Pinesoft Limited are registered in England, Registered number: 2914825. Registered office: 266-268 High Street, Waltham Cross, Herts, EN8 7EA

_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

****************************************************************************************************************************************** This email is from Pinesoft Limited. Its contents are confidential to the intended recipient(s) at the email address(es) to which it has been addressed. It may not be disclosed to or used by anyone other than the addressee(s), nor may it be copied in anyway. If received in error, please contact the sender, then delete it from your system. Although this email and attachments are believed to be free of virus, or any other defect which might affect any computer or IT system into which they are received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that they are virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Pinesoft for any loss or damage arising in any way from receipt or use thereof. ******************************************************************************************************************************************* Pinesoft Limited are registered in England, Registered number: 2914825. Registered office: 266-268 High Street, Waltham Cross, Herts, EN8 7EA

Hi Stef

I'm interested why you think this blog would scare people from Smalltalk? As it happens though, it's obviously aimed purely at Smalltalkers: It's difficult to start such a discussion without letting it out into the world for people to see, I say.

I do not really understand what is the point of the Blog. Of course it would be nice if we could have a better interoperability. But I do not see the point. Then since years we never got more people of different dialects working together.

I'm actually all for open debate. Whether I agree or disagree with the blog itself, I say don't hide such talk: if our community and the language and tools are strong enough they will survive in spite of such debate, or perhaps even because of it.

Finally: is it always more difficult to build than to clean? I think it's easier to build crap than to clean: building something good and *keeping it that way* is the really difficult part.

:)

Squeak is a perfect case in point: so many good ideas, but buried in mounds of cruft that this effort (Pharo) is trying to strip away. Once something has become crufty, it is really, really hard to clean up.

We know we did that for years and we are doing it. Still I always have present that building is still difficult and I respect what other people build. But this respect does not include that I will not judge the quality of a work.

Cheers, Simon

ps. Bob Martin proposed adding a fifth line to the Agile Manifesto: "Craftsmanship over Crap" (ie, favouring the former over the latter). I couldn't agree more, it's a way of thinking I try to apply all the time.

A nice one.

On 20 Sep 2008, at 21:14, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

...

I think that this is not like that that he will really bring smalltalk back. Concertation is equals to death. Have a look at Squeak.

Stef

PS: a good friend of mine once told me: "do not shit where you eat" and I keep that in mind even when cleaning squeak. I know that this more difficult to build things than to clean them. Still I would not let this blog out there because it will not produce anything positive, just scared more people from Smalltalk.

...

Hi all - as I said in my subject, I've already posted this on Squeak-Dev, but I thought those on here who don't subscribe to that list might be interested, too:

http://www.robvens.nl/en/blog/The-Smalltalk-Trap.html

Cheers, Simon

*******************************************************************************************************************************************

This email is from Pinesoft Limited. Its contents are confidential to the intended recipient(s) at the email address(es) to which it has been addressed. It may not be disclosed to or used by anyone other than the addressee(s), nor may it be copied in anyway. If received in error, please contact the sender, then delete it from your system. Although this email and attachments are believed to be free of virus, or any other defect which might affect any computer or IT system into which they are received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that they are virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Pinesoft for any loss or damage arising in any way from receipt or use thereof.

*******************************************************************************************************************************************

Pinesoft Limited are registered in England, Registered number: 2914825. Registered office: 266-268 High Street, Waltham Cross, Herts, EN8 7EA

_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

****************************************************************************************************************************************** This email is from Pinesoft Limited. Its contents are confidential to the intended recipient(s) at the email address(es) to which it has been addressed. It may not be disclosed to or used by anyone other than the addressee(s), nor may it be copied in anyway. If received in error, please contact the sender, then delete it from your system. Although this email and attachments are believed to be free of virus, or any other defect which might affect any computer or IT system into which they are received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that they are virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Pinesoft for any loss or damage arising in any way from receipt or use thereof. *******************************************************************************************************************************************

Pinesoft Limited are registered in England, Registered number: 2914825. Registered office: 266-268 High Street, Waltham Cross, Herts, EN8 7EA

_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project