Marcus, I like the idea of "downstream projects" but the dark side is that one won't know how much testing they have received. For one thing, the 1.4 Seaside image does not support Shout in system browsers (it works in the debugger) - 1.4 does have Shout everywhere. Someone suggested that the build scripts are not right, but my idealistic side asks why the downstream Seaside is not simply the latest 1.4 with Seaside loaded to save everybody time. I guess what I am saying is that you can pay now or pay later. Looking deeper, the pay later approach (which is what we are using) is that Pharo itself is consistent, but the end user gets stuck finding the things that would be found if Pharo were built and used (during development) in a more full featured way. I really miss the old web image, and would like to see a clean Pharo for those who must (Stef clearly finds it important - who am I to stand in his way), and a heavily advertised more fully featured image with RB, Seaside, Magritte, etc. loaded into it from the start. These are good tools that we want to promote, so we should get them tested as we go vs. dumping it on the user later. Re the RB, I enjoy having it, I choose not to use it very much. Older code accumulates lots of comments that have proven to save my skin in many situations. The RB's formatting has come a long way, but it still makes a mess of treasured resource in my old code. Refactorings that do not have to touch the code are great, and I am often willing to exploit the RB in new code that has not had time to accumulate valuable comments in cascades and other weird places. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Marcus Denker [marcus.denker@inria.fr] Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 5:34 AM To: Pharo Development Subject: [Pharo-project] About 1.4 Release... Hi, We were discussing here about the 1.4 release... and my standpoint is: "What is on the Build Server will be the Release" For 1.4, this means that this image is the release image: https://ci.lille.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo%201.4/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact... possibly with more bugs fixed. the list is here: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/list?can=2&q=milestone=1.4 It especially means that we will not load additional packages (RB, OB....), because then we should have used the resulting image already the last months and we did not. Is that what we want? or will people say "without refactorings, I will not use it?" Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de