2008/12/18 Oscar Nierstrasz <oscar@iam.unibe.ch>:
I didn't understand a thing :-(
I seem to have touched a sore spot, but I do not know what the background is.
Can someone summarize? Technically and politically, what is the current status of Hydra, and what are our options for using it as a basis for multi-core Pharo?
First, I think this discussion missing two important persons: Eliot and Andreas. Andreas is one, who behind the idea of Hydra VM. Eliot is making serious rewritings of squeak VM (namely Cog). There are plans to merge Hydra & Cog and continue with a new VM. This is beneficial in many aspects: i really think that best for all of us is to join efforts to produce better VM, instead in having multiple branches Squeak/Cog/Hydra VMs. Currently, works on Hydra is suspended because the more changes i do, the harder it would be to merge with Cog. Merging mess of low-structured low-level code of VMMaker is tough task, so i don't want to make it harder. :) Moreover, Hydra initially was proposed as experiment initiated by Qwaq, implemented by me. It turned out to be successfull one. :) But to leverage it, we need a much more than just VM - we need people who think/know how to adopt things to get benefits from multithreading. Squeak images simply not ready for this. We should have a better ways to scale: instead of loading bloated images (each for own interpter), we should think how to lessen the bloat and use single central image, which then managing smaller/nimble ones. That's why i keep making noise about modularity: we need modules which can be easily installed and run more or less standalone without cross-package dependencies. There is nothing wonderful in Hydra alone: we should attack the problem from both ends - language side and VM.
- on
On Dec 18, 2008, at 10:08, stephane ducasse wrote:
Ok this is clearer now.
Stef
On Dec 18, 2008, at 9:40 AM, Klaus D. Witzel wrote:
On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:13:11 +0100, Stef wrote:
Klaus
if you want to have a clear answer from esug:
You're mixing up things here. If Pharo people want to run Hydra on their Mac, they could approach ESUG for funding.
- follow the process (cf the web page) - write a clear request
Since you (not me) would be the benefitor, go ahead. I was only the man who suggested the combination. Don't blame the messenger, don't put your work on him. Is this clear now?
So far it was a little mail about moebius and not Hydra.
Yes, clear. But it is the same developer, namely Igor, who would do that for Pharo Mac users.
Cheers, Klaus
Stef
PS: ESUG has a board and we discuss and vote before taking decision.
Really? ;) to me you seem to be more concerned about your own political attitude than about getting Hydra to the Mac/Pharo community.
Please take notice that I know precisely how the democratic process in the ESUG board is supposed to work, no lecture necessary from your side. You are wasting time (not the first time with me).
On Dec 17, 2008, at 7:58 PM, Klaus D. Witzel wrote:
Hi Alex,
I'm sorry I'm just a frequent reader of the Pharo mailing list, so here's my response by email. Feel free to forward it.
On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:11:52 +0100, you wrote:
Hi Igor and Klaus,
Having a description about Hydra will really help promoting your project. Maybe we could continue what I started to write...
The Hydra VM is usable as is and in production, serving heavy used Croquet site, IIRC. Hydra has everything you need for the Multi-core VM of Squeak:
- launch and control multiple .images in native threads - control these threads from the Smalltalk language level - communicate beween .images through channels - any number of related/unrelated .images can be run
What is not done yet (Igor would correct me) is making Hydra available on Mac and Linux(en).
In light of recent discussion with Stef about ESUG founding, I would suggest you perhaps consider to make Hydra available for you Mac users.
Cheers, Klaus
P.S. Alex the "rest" of the discussion you recalled above (the paper you suggested) is about a very particular use of Hydra technology, formost for and by enthusiastic VM engineers to be "the first" who get it going. Hydra can do and does well without all that (without the cloning of object subgraphs "baby Hydras" from the running .image): just save an .image file and then start it up in Hydra.
Alexandre
On 17 Dec 2008, at 09:52, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote:
Hi folks,
Has anyone looked at the Qwac Hydra stuff?
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2008-February/125719....
There was quite a lot of discussion on squeak-dev ast February, but not much since then.
I would really love to see a multi-core Pharo. If someone has an idea how this could be done, I would be interested to learn more. I think getting Pharo to exploit multi-cores could be a big selling point in the future ...
- on
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