Hi Chris, the planed changes in Pharo are not autotelic but in most cases they are replacements of current buggy and unmaintainable subsytems. We also use automatic or semiautomatic tools for shrinking and modularization of the image. For example uMorphic is generated moslty automatically with subsequent hand-made cleanup. The original Squeak KernelImage was generated in the similar way. But we use the results of this tools only as the supporting experimental sources of information. The goals of Cuis, Spoon and Pharo are very very similar. Everyone wants to have the "small, clean, understandable Smalltalk system". But Pharo development is more evolutional and modularity is more valuable than small size. In Smalltalk it is easy to dive into the system and create something like Cuis, Spoon or KernelImage. But this projects were created by a single person and the degree of adoption of this forks is low. You may for example to take the current PharoKernel and withing few days to create a perfect small and clean kernel. It is cool intelectual adventure but to make it generally used stuff is another story. -- Pavel On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 6:17 PM, Chris Muller <asqueaker@gmail.com> wrote:
I see the "point" of Cuis as to have a small, clean, understandable Smalltalk system. Â It's a *general-purpose* system rather than one geared solely towards business. Â Pharo, at least to me, feels more like the Java ecosystem -- a platform aiming primarily toward business and generating plenty of marketing "buzz" with frameworks-of-the-month (such as the ones you listed). Â In Cuis, Smalltalk _is_ the framework and users are expected to build on that directly.
In my view, Spoon is about letting the machine generate a small, vertical system from a larger, horizontal system. Â Pavel, Edgar and you all have been working on making a smaller system for years (good work); but I see the dream of Spoon as delegating that work to the machine, which will do it quickly and accurately. Â The question at the moment is whether that dream will be realized. Â Based on Craig's Squeak-Board candidacy announcement, I expect 2012 to be the year Spoon is born into mainstream-use at least in the Squeak community.
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 4:22 AM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
Hi guys
May I ask you why you talk about CUIS and Spoon/Pharo? If you want to work with these systems we do not have any problems.
We are working on Pharo since 2008. We deliver regularly, we are concerned with making sure that you can do business with Pharo. And we will continue. WE want to invent and build OUR future.
We are spending a lot of time on making the system better.     - Fuel     - Athens     - OPAL     - Ghost     - Nautilus     - Ring     - NativeBoost     - Zinc     - HUGE amount of fixes     - Working on a core     - Writing a lot of documentation (yes guys) to name a few. We are pushing like hell and getting there.
We spent time building our vision and step by step building it. We are getting there. Â :) Now I do not see the points related to spoon and cuis. I do not understand what is the point. If people wants to collaborate with us this is ok now we do not count on that for our future.
You do not have to reply. Just think about what you want to build and your future. Everybody make choices and is free.
Stef