Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo and the rest of the ecosystem

Chris Muller-3 wrote

generating plenty of marketing "buzz" with frameworks-of-the-month (such as the ones you listed). In Cuis, Smalltalk _is_ the framework and users are expected to build on that directly.

Pavel Krivanek-3 wrote

the planed changes in Pharo are not autotelic but in most cases they are replacements of current buggy and unmaintainable subsytems.

Yes this is the key! It's not "let's build all these great frameworks on top of the system", but "we need a clean, beautiful system that people can use and explore and build on without tearing their hair out in frustration" [1] and some of the components are so messy that the only clear path forward is replacement. This is not a criticism of Squeak. Many parts of Squeak (and Squeak itself was intended as just a "tool to think" about the next evolution) were spikes, not real implementations but experiments. So the usual advice that it's better to clean than to rewrite does not apply. Proofs of concept are meant to be thrown away! Each of these components brings us closer to a clean, beautiful, Smalltalk-inspired system "and users are expected to build on that directly". The Smalltalk-inspired part is crucial also. Until I got that, I was plagued by questions of interoperability and backward-compatibility (which are obviously still nice, but subordinate to evolution). I see Squeak and Pharo's goals aligning more and more and, sure, it is frustrating to duplicate efforts. Although, maybe we'd all be complacent without the friendly rivalry. As the Zen master said, "we'll see..." [2] [1] I can't imagine someone putting FileDirectory and friends through serious use and not praying for something like Filesystem. And a programming environment without built-in support for https?? Zodiac is a fundamental piece of the system. These things are not "buzz", but core components that let us get back to work and play, instead of beating our heads against soul-crushing constructs like "FileDirectory extensionFor: file name" instead of "file extension" [2] A boy is given a horse on his 14th birthday. Everyone in the village says, “Oh how wonderful.” But a Zen master who lives in the village says, “We'll see.” 'The boy falls off the horse and breaks his foot. Everyone in the village says, “Oh how awful.” The Zen master says, “We'll see.” The village is thrown into war and all the young men have to go to war. But, because of the broken foot, the boy stays behind. Everyone says, “Oh, how wonderful.” The Zen master says, “We'll see.” Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-and-the-rest-of-the-ecosystem-tp4582839p4590003.... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.