Stef, I sometimes get overwhelmed and have probably hit about every other beta or release that I intended to use. The improvements are accumulating and very much appreciated. Thanks! Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse@inria.fr] Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 4:12 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr; ma.chris.m@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Morphic On Sep 20, 2010, at 9:45 PM, Chris Muller wrote:
Hi Hilaire, I'm not sure if you meant "thrust" or "trust" but... :)
:)
I still develop for Pharo, but one of my concerns has been the short time between releases. It means there is not much time for a stable, proven Pharo foundation to form before it is abandoned already.
I would not call it abandoned. Because this is not abandoned. Now the system is in such a state even if we are working a lot that we must change it. I do not like to live with duplicated code. I thought we fixed most of it. Or a texteditor/compiler from 30 years ago, even if the age is not a problem :). Did you get that many changes impacting you between 1.0 and 1.1? For example inceptive worked a lot with 1.0 and recently moved to 1.1. I do not know what is their experience but it seems to be good from their side and their application is really sexy and demanding. We do not want to have long release cycle because we get more beta phases where effort is on stabilization and feedback. With longer periods we would be too much alone hacking and people waiting to try the new one. So I think that this is nice tension. Two/Three releases per year give 3 months minimum of beta phase. Now you can also skipped on release on two.
Combined with the Pharo philosophy about backward compatibility, I am quite nervous that Magma is going to get "stuck" in some "old" (what, 3 months?!) version of Pharo that never had much time to gestate in the first place..
I think that the pace of changes will probably slow down. Now what I see with Moose and moose is complex (using AST and other internal parts is that it took 1 day to migrate it). In addition, we will not change for the sake of it but there are still really places that should be changed. I think that magma can gain benefit of the bytecode rewriting library marcus will migrate on top of Opal. In addition I would really like to have more bits so that we can nicely have an immutability bit. And I imagine that the write barrier would benefit greatly of it.
- Chris
PS - Congratulations on your latest Dr. Geo.
2010/9/20 Hilaire Fernandes <hilaire.fernandes@gmail.com>:
Le 20/09/2010 17:50, Levente Uzonyi a écrit :
On Sat, 18 Sep 2010, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
Really I don't understand CUIS long term objective, why this work is not done in Pharo? They share the same vision.
You could ask the same question with Pharo and Squeak instead of Cuis and Pharo, couldn't you?
No, I can't.
Pharo provides me a clear vision I can thrust: a Smalltalk environment to build third party applications (ie makes my developer life easier). Squeak does not provide me this thrust nor indication of that direction. You can object it is matter of point of view, I will object it is a matter of ressources you can allocate to write an application. Mine are limited: I start writing DrGeo under Squeak, then I continued with Pharo. I can really fell the difference: nice Widgets, cleaner system I can understand, ease to integrate changes/improvements upstream. All in all, I get the job done more nicely from my perspective.
In the past, project got hudge resources (ie Sophie), this project failed to give back to the community in a proper way. Was it because Squeak defunct development model? I think so. IMHO, Pharo is trying to fix that, and this is terribly important for a community.
Now, Squeak model of development is may be different, so it may not happen again, I don't know.
IMHO the reason is having total control and that's the same reason why Pharo was created.
This does not matter.
Hilaire
-- Dr. Geo, to discover geometry on Linux, Windows, MAC and XO http://community.ofset.org/index.php/DrGeo
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