Göran, "Noone works on something because *someone else* told him to." - That is at best context-dependent, and untrue in general. Not meaning to give you a hard time, but people often do what other people tell/ask/convince them to do. "Personally I like the colors. I also don't equal "normal" with "professional". But such is taste!" - as I have said for years now, it has not been the look that Squeak has had (pardon me) so horribly wrong, it has been the feel. Meeting the expectations of one's customers is part of professionalism. Exceeding expectations can be even better. There is a room for leadership, but no place for active contempt for the user; IMHO, Squeak has long been held back by the latter. You seem to be saying that Pharo is getting a lot of stuff right, so let's merge now. Pharo is getting a lot of stuff right precisely because it has forked, giving us the freedom to change things. That needs to go on for a while. The result will be a lean well-factored system that can be the basis for any tools or toys anyone wants to create. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Göran Krampe Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 10:55 AM To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list Cc: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] The future of Squeak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT license clean) Hi! Ian Trudel wrote:
2009/6/28 Göran Krampe <goran@krampe.se>:
Possibly true, but Smalltalk, Squeak, Etoys and even Croquet have been around for quite some time now - and we haven't seen any real explosion yet. Croquet was meant to "explode" but hasn't. So I am not holding my breath for "the day Squeak gets popular" :)
Sometimes being popular means doing normal things. Smalltalk is an unusual programming language (in the sense of mainstream) with an overly eccentric environment in Squeak. Then there are Croquet, Etoys, and so on. It's hardly a break through if it's only "more" eccentric than eccentric. Don't you think?
Not sure what you mean there.
The look-and-feel is designed for children. It's colourful, joyful, it bleeps and blink. How many professional developers are children? How many children are on this list? Enough with that already! Can we have a normal look-and-feel? A professional look-and-feel. =)
Personally I like the colors. I also don't equal "normal" with "professional". But such is taste!
Squeak is stuck in some time warp, where the surrounding world is on stand still. It should however consider that we are living in 2009 and have needs of 2009. We need a different usability, developer tools and we have different goals.
Note that talking about what we "need" and what other people "want" is not really that fruitful. We get what we *do*, or in other words - if someone feels it is important enough to spend time on it - it will get done. Noone works on something because *someone else* told him to.
For example, Squeak hardly support the requirements of my distributors, which makes it overly challenging for me to consider Squeak as our platform of development.
Elaborate?
Squeak doesn't need a killer app. It needs to be spruced up and put back on track. Honey moon is over, it's time to get real.
Hehe, I really don't agree. :) Squeak *is* real. We already have our killer app (Seaside). We do need to clean shit up though (and I am not talking about UI primarily) and get the improvement process working. Currently Squeak.org is getting smashed (again, I don't have hard numbers, but I think I am right) by Pharo when it comes to hard, concrete, nitty gritt work getting done. regards, Göran _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project