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Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by sourav roy

Hi Toon, I agreeto what have you said but as i am a beginner to smalltalk i need lot of help to get a good grip over it and moreover unlike other mainstream languages there are not much documents or professional from which i can get some guidance about it. And i feel as Smalltalk is quite vast and different in structure from the other mail(with my two month experiance and i may be wrong), a beginner needs some proper guidance to get his hands over smalltalk. So, i just request you to kindly guide me to how should i get into smalltalk. Thanks&Regards, Sourav Original message From:"Toon Verwaest"< toon.verwaest(a)gmail.com >Date: 5 May 11 13:29:11Subject: Re: [Pharoproject] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software IndustryTo: pharoproject(a)lists.gforge.inria.frHi,I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look at prog ramming from a new angle and this will give you an edge. This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a billion. If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other people might not makes you more special. The only negative part of learning Smalltalk while working on other types of applications is that you will eat your shoe 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't more evolved and flexible :)As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it; you'll come out for the better.Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take the time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to understand the differences yourself. You are currently also part of industry and obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your decision to no t know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other people not choose Smalltalk based on your (non)choice of not using Smalltalk; if they would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :)cheers,ToonOn 05/05/2011 07:38 AM, sourav roy wrote:Hi All, I have just started my career in Software/IT industry and got into a project which involes enhancement/maintainance of product built in Smalltalk. I was never exposed to this language before and have no idea if it is used in the Industry as popularly as JAVA and .NET and looks like its a DEADlanguage for the industry. I may be wrong but i need some clarification about it. I just want to know that why smalltalk is not so popular as the other OOPs Languages and what is the future prospect ofone if he/she is into Smalltalk development.Looking for some positive note so that it may give me some entho for working with Smalltalk. Thanks&Regards, Sourav Roy Get Yourself a cool, short @in.com Email ID now!Get Yourself a cool , short @in.com Email ID now!

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Just starting out

by Camillo Bruni

Reminds of the story of PGP where they could not export the algorithm directly, due to said restrictions. But what they did instead is printing a huge book and exporting the sources this way :D. http://www.pgpi.org/pgpi/project/scanning/ camillo On 2011-05-05, at 09:11, Douglas Brebner wrote: > On 04/05/2011 08:58, Toon Verwaest wrote: >> On 05/04/2011 09:53 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: >>> On 04 May 2011, at 09:41, Toon Verwaest wrote: >>> >>>> On 05/04/2011 07:20 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >>>>> this is because they are forced to do so because of a new law in the us about crypto. >>>>> Believe they do not like that. >>>> What law is that, and why? Sounds interesting :) >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_of_cryptography_in_the_United_States >>> >>> Basically, encryption is a weapon. >>> >>> Sven >> Uncrackable encryption will allow drug lords, spies, terrorists and even violent gangs to communicate about their crimes and their conspiracies with impunity. We will lose one of the few remaining vulnerabilities of the worst criminals and terrorists upon which law enforcement depends to successfully investigate and often prevent the worst crimes. >> For this reason, the law enforcement community is unanimous in calling for a balanced solution to this problem. >> >> > > I have to wonder if the people behind this realise that public key encryption was originally invented in the UK, not the USA which makes export controls rather pointless :) > > >

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Tudor Girba

Hi, When people are asking me why I work in Smalltalk (especially after Moose presentations), I answer: "It's great to have a competitive advantage that is hidden in plain sight :)" Cheers, Doru On 5 May 2011, at 10:57, Johan Brichau wrote: > That is a superb response, Toon! > I could not agree more. > > Let me add to that Smalltalk is not dead. It's the stealth weapon of mass productivity used by small technology startups ;-) > > Johan > > On 05 May 2011, at 09:58, Toon Verwaest wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look at programming from a new angle and this will give you an edge. >> >> This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a billion. If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other people might not makes you more special. The only negative part of learning Smalltalk while working on other types of applications is that you will eat your shoe 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't more evolved and flexible :) >> >> As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it; you'll come out for the better. >> >> Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take the time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to understand the differences yourself. You are currently also part of industry and obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your decision to not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other people not choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of not using Smalltalk; if they would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :) >> >> cheers, >> Toon >> >> On 05/05/2011 07:38 AM, sourav roy wrote: >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I have just started my career in Software/IT industry and got into a project which involes enhancement/maintainance of product built in Smalltalk. >>> >>> I was never exposed to this language before and have no idea if it is used in the Industry as popularly as JAVA and .NET and looks like its a DEAD >>> >>> language for the industry. I may be wrong but i need some clarification about it. >>> >>> >>> I just want to know that why smalltalk is not so popular as the other OOPs Languages and what is the future prospect of >>> >>> one if he/she is into Smalltalk development. >>> >>> Looking for some positive note so that it may give me some entho for working with Smalltalk. >>> >>> Thanks&Regards, >>> >>> Sourav Roy >>> >>> >>> >>> Get Yourself a cool, short @in.com Email ID now! >> > > -- www.tudorgirba.com "We can create beautiful models in a vacuum. But, to get them effective we have to deal with the inconvenience of reality."

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Olivier Auverlot

Le 05/05/11 10:07, Sven Van Caekenberghe a Ã©crit : > And like you say, there is a danger: Smalltalk is the Red Pill, once you know it and get it, you will never want to go back +1 Yes, it's true. I discovered Smalltalk since six month and I'm digitally addicted ;-) Before, I thought that Smalltalk was a dinosaur but I was wrong. There are many projects, the community is really cool and the language is very impressive. Olivier www.auverlot.fr

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Carlo

Hi While I agree with everyone's sentiments I think that practically If I ware starting my career off again I would still go into Java or .NET. To get a job as a Smalltalk developer is difficult simply because they are so scarce. Yes technically Smalltalk has design and philosophical merits but, for someone starting their career, a more mainstream language would be best. It is still too difficult to make Smalltalk do enterprise scale integration and there is a serious lack of libraries; something that the Java and .NET (even Ruby) world does not suffer from. i'm not saying That Smalltalk can't do these things but rather that it is more difficult to integrate with the outside world; it's ecosystem is small compared to the J2EE ecosystem. My advice would be to start off with Java or .NET and then when you've gained practical development experience (+-5 years) decide where you want to take your career. During this time you should be looking at other languages and practices, such as Smalltalk, software methodologies, DDD, FP etc, and learn from them to make you a better software engineer. A career in development is so much more than simply the programming language. BTW I'm still regretting not taking a Smalltalk position here in South Africa when I had the chance :) Maybe I will still... Cheers Carlo On 05 May 2011, at 10:57 AM, Johan Brichau wrote: That is a superb response, Toon! I could not agree more. Let me add to that Smalltalk is not dead. It's the stealth weapon of mass productivity used by small technology startups ;-) Johan On 05 May 2011, at 09:58, Toon Verwaest wrote: > Hi, > > I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look at programming from a new angle and this will give you an edge. > > This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a billion. If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other people might not makes you more special. The only negative part of learning Smalltalk while working on other types of applications is that you will eat your shoe 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't more evolved and flexible :) > > As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it; you'll come out for the better. > > Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take the time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to understand the differences yourself. You are currently also part of industry and obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your decision to not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other people not choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of not using Smalltalk; if they would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :) > > cheers, > Toon > > On 05/05/2011 07:38 AM, sourav roy wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> I have just started my career in Software/IT industry and got into a project which involes enhancement/maintainance of product built in Smalltalk. >> >> I was never exposed to this language before and have no idea if it is used in the Industry as popularly as JAVA and .NET and looks like its a DEAD >> >> language for the industry. I may be wrong but i need some clarification about it. >> >> >> I just want to know that why smalltalk is not so popular as the other OOPs Languages and what is the future prospect of >> >> one if he/she is into Smalltalk development. >> >> Looking for some positive note so that it may give me some entho for working with Smalltalk. >> >> Thanks&Regards, >> >> Sourav Roy >> >> >> >> Get Yourself a cool, short @in.com Email ID now! >

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Johan Brichau

That is a superb response, Toon! I could not agree more. Let me add to that Smalltalk is not dead. It's the stealth weapon of mass productivity used by small technology startups ;-) Johan On 05 May 2011, at 09:58, Toon Verwaest wrote: > Hi, > > I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look at programming from a new angle and this will give you an edge. > > This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a billion. If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other people might not makes you more special. The only negative part of learning Smalltalk while working on other types of applications is that you will eat your shoe 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't more evolved and flexible :) > > As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it; you'll come out for the better. > > Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take the time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to understand the differences yourself. You are currently also part of industry and obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your decision to not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other people not choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of not using Smalltalk; if they would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :) > > cheers, > Toon > > On 05/05/2011 07:38 AM, sourav roy wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> I have just started my career in Software/IT industry and got into a project which involes enhancement/maintainance of product built in Smalltalk. >> >> I was never exposed to this language before and have no idea if it is used in the Industry as popularly as JAVA and .NET and looks like its a DEAD >> >> language for the industry. I may be wrong but i need some clarification about it. >> >> >> I just want to know that why smalltalk is not so popular as the other OOPs Languages and what is the future prospect of >> >> one if he/she is into Smalltalk development. >> >> Looking for some positive note so that it may give me some entho for working with Smalltalk. >> >> Thanks&Regards, >> >> Sourav Roy >> >> >> >> Get Yourself a cool, short @in.com Email ID now! >

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Toon Verwaest

> Very well written, Toon! > Thanks! > And like you say, there is a danger: Smalltalk is the Red Pill, once you know it and get it, you will never want to go back. > To say it in the words of people more famous than me: "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" -- Alan Perlis For me, Java and .NET have never really been worth knowing. cheers, Toon

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Peter Hugosson-Miller

On 5 maj 2011, at 10:07, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)beta9.be> wrote: > > On 05 May 2011, at 09:58, Toon Verwaest wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look at programming from a new angle and this will give you an edge. >> >> This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a billion. If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other people might not makes you more special. The only negative part of learning Smalltalk while working on other types of applications is that you will eat your shoe 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't more evolved and flexible :) >> >> As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it; you'll come out for the better. >> >> Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take the time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to understand the differences yourself. You are currently also part of industry and obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your decision to not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other people not choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of not using Smalltalk; if they would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :) >> >> cheers, >> Toon > > Very well written, Toon! > > And like you say, there is a danger: Smalltalk is the Red Pill, once you know it and get it, you will never want to go back. This is all too true! :-/ -- Cheers, Peter > > You have been warned. > > Sven > >

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

On 05 May 2011, at 09:58, Toon Verwaest wrote: > Hi, > > I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look at programming from a new angle and this will give you an edge. > > This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a billion. If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other people might not makes you more special. The only negative part of learning Smalltalk while working on other types of applications is that you will eat your shoe 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't more evolved and flexible :) > > As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it; you'll come out for the better. > > Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take the time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to understand the differences yourself. You are currently also part of industry and obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your decision to not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other people not choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of not using Smalltalk; if they would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :) > > cheers, > Toon Very well written, Toon! And like you say, there is a danger: Smalltalk is the Red Pill, once you know it and get it, you will never want to go back. You have been warned. Sven

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Nile tests red - Pharo 1.3

by Alain rastoul

Keep on making Pharo, IMHO it's the best thing that happened to squeak since years - though I was very septic at the beginning Last time I made a small demo to 2 of my collegues they didn't laugh - scouic - and were even impressed by smalltalk concepts -- Alain_rastoul

May 5, 2011