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[Pharo-project] PetitParser puzzle

by Damien Pollet

I have a unit test for a parser of mine: testLine self fail: 'Just a line.' rule: #lineBlank. "passes" self parse: 'Just a line.' rule: #lineNonBlank. "passes" self parse: 'Just a line.' rule: #line. "end of input expected at 0" Now the fun part: line ^ lineBlank / lineNonBlank For reference, here are the rest of the involved rules: blank ^ #blank asParser lineBlank ^ blank star lineNonBlank ^ blank star , blank not , lineEnd negate plus lineEnd ^ (Character lf asParser) / (Character cr asParser , Character lf asParser optional) Insights ? -- Damien Pollet type less, do more [ | ] http://people.untyped.org/damien.pollet

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Johan Brichau

On 06 May 2011, at 12:57, Stefan Marr wrote: > Unfortunately, Smalltalkers don't know anything outside the image... Exactly, and most of the time, it's all you need. I remark a funny difference between developing in Smalltalk and developing in any other language (say, Java, Javascript, Objective-C, ...): When I program in Smalltalk, I have a lot of open code browsers in my image When I program in Java/Javascript/..., I have a lot of open web pages on my desktop That surely does not invalidate the need for more and better documentation. The documentation for Alien I saw 2 years ago was just sad. But when you compare FFI and Alien with the DLLCC of Visualworks, Stef is *definitely* right too. I started out building a layer for Alien some time ago (in the context of JavaConnect for Pharo) but I eventually had to stop... (making a living takes time too). Johan

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Stefan Marr

Sorry for the flam below. I didn't have the time and energy to rewrite it. >>> Now for the documentation when did you send an help documentation for any part of the system? >>> Or a bug fix? >>> I find quite funny that people always talk but few are doing. We welcome comments/examples help. No, I report things on the mailing list, and I complain here and there about the narrow-mindedness of Smalltalk-evangelists. And when it comes to documentation, I document that RoarVM you might have heard of. If that is not interesting for you, sorry, we just don't share the same interests. >> No need to get into a cat-fight here :) > > No this is not my point. But what do people really do to help? Stef, if you haven't noticed: I don't care about Smalltalk, and I don't care about Pharo, or any other language out there in particular. I don't share your vision, I have other goals in life. The only thing I do here is to point out the obvious (at least from my narrow-minded perspective). > If this is just to spit out class comment on html I do not call that a documentation. > Now we can take the book contents and generate html > We have 350 pages in the first book and the same in the second one. > People are free to join and write one or two chapters. That's what I mean. From my perspective, books about programming languages are a wast of effort. You need a good entry level book, that is all it takes. The rest is great online documentation. Unfortunately, Smalltalkers don't know anything outside the image... I don't know how other people work, but I never look into books when I program. They just don't work. They are slow, outdated and hard to search in. Honestly, I don't understand why books are a priority for you when you want to develop a community. You got a good entry level book, so what is the motivation to write another one? As I said, that is obviously my point of view, based on the way my workflow works. I prepare now Clojure assignments for my students, and there is also not a lot documentation out there, but all I need is centrally accessible at a place I easily identified with google. There is exactly one important window on my screen: http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html Thanks to my browsers search, everything is there. The Clojure book on my desk is just lying there and collecting dust... Best regards Stefan -- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Nicolas Cellier

Guys, this is crazy, this is a runaway thread ;) Please, please, a bit more empathy for newcomers would not hurt: change the subject in such cases. Welcome to Sourav, don't be afraid to ask this list for anything obscure. and congratulations to Toon for initial answer. Nicolas 2011/5/6 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: > Ok if some good souls want to give a try to generate html. > > Stef > > > >> Probably we should find a way to generate HTML from PDF or Latex. >> Any ideas? >> >> I've used latex2html several years ago. >> >> +1 for html >> >> Laurent. >> >> >> >> >>>> Now for the documentation when did you send an help documentation for any part of the system? >> >>>> Or a bug fix? >> >>>> I find quite funny that people always talk but few are doing. We welcome comments/examples help. >> >>> No need to get into a cat-fight here :) >> >> >> >> No this is not my point. But what do people really do to help? >> >> >> >>> I do agree with Stefan, as well as with you that we could help; but I'm unaware of a good documentation effort outside of the image to start with. Camillo's website project might be the best effort I've seen until now; but then I didn't really look either. Maybe I missed some great website? >> >> >> >> If this is just to spit out class comment on html I do not call that a documentation. >> >> Now we can take the book contents and generate html >> >> We have 350 pages in the first book and the same in the second one. >> >> People are free to join and write one or two chapters. >> > >> > StÃ©phane, >> > >> > Of course you are right: wining/complaining doesn't help, only action does. We need more people like Laurent focusing on documentation. >> > >> > I for one think that the well written, high quality books that exist (PBE, Seaside Book) are *very valuable*, much better than confusing wiki site (although these have their place as well). >> > >> > But the other point is: in most other popular languages, what current, young developers do, when they get an error that they don't understand is copy/paste the literal text in Google and in a surprisingly large number of cases you find some real answers in the first page. >> > >> > This is also related to popularity of course. >> > >> > Sven >> >> >> > > >

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Ok if some good souls want to give a try to generate html. Stef > Probably we should find a way to generate HTML from PDF or Latex. > Any ideas? > > I've used latex2html several years ago. > > +1 for html > > Laurent. > > > > >>>> Now for the documentation when did you send an help documentation for any part of the system? > >>>> Or a bug fix? > >>>> I find quite funny that people always talk but few are doing. We welcome comments/examples help. > >>> No need to get into a cat-fight here :) > >> > >> No this is not my point. But what do people really do to help? > >> > >>> I do agree with Stefan, as well as with you that we could help; but I'm unaware of a good documentation effort outside of the image to start with. Camillo's website project might be the best effort I've seen until now; but then I didn't really look either. Maybe I missed some great website? > >> > >> If this is just to spit out class comment on html I do not call that a documentation. > >> Now we can take the book contents and generate html > >> We have 350 pages in the first book and the same in the second one. > >> People are free to join and write one or two chapters. > > > > StÃ©phane, > > > > Of course you are right: wining/complaining doesn't help, only action does. We need more people like Laurent focusing on documentation. > > > > I for one think that the well written, high quality books that exist (PBE, Seaside Book) are *very valuable*, much better than confusing wiki site (although these have their place as well). > > > > But the other point is: in most other popular languages, what current, young developers do, when they get an error that they don't understand is copy/paste the literal text in Google and in a surprisingly large number of cases you find some real answers in the first page. > > > > This is also related to popularity of course. > > > > Sven > > >

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Nile tests red - Pharo 1.3

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Yes this is my point. Stef > Databases are heavy, I had a look at glorp tutorial pointed to by glorp.org, it seems pretty good. Perhaps few helpers or tools on top of it could simplify. > > On Fri, 6 May 2011 10:55:41 +0200, StÃ©phane Ducasse<stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> The problem of Glorp was that it is a bit heavyweight. > > -- > Alain_rastoul > >

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by laurent laffont

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 11:34 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > wrote: > Probably we should find a way to generate HTML from PDF or Latex. Any ideas? > I've used latex2html several years ago. +1 for html Laurent. > > >>>> Now for the documentation when did you send an help documentation for > any part of the system? > >>>> Or a bug fix? > >>>> I find quite funny that people always talk but few are doing. We > welcome comments/examples help. > >>> No need to get into a cat-fight here :) > >> > >> No this is not my point. But what do people really do to help? > >> > >>> I do agree with Stefan, as well as with you that we could help; but I'm > unaware of a good documentation effort outside of the image to start with. > Camillo's website project might be the best effort I've seen until now; but > then I didn't really look either. Maybe I missed some great website? > >> > >> If this is just to spit out class comment on html I do not call that a > documentation. > >> Now we can take the book contents and generate html > >> We have 350 pages in the first book and the same in the second one. > >> People are free to join and write one or two chapters. > > > > StÃ©phane, > > > > Of course you are right: wining/complaining doesn't help, only action > does. We need more people like Laurent focusing on documentation. > > > > I for one think that the well written, high quality books that exist > (PBE, Seaside Book) are *very valuable*, much better than confusing wiki > site (although these have their place as well). > > > > But the other point is: in most other popular languages, what current, > young developers do, when they get an error that they don't understand is > copy/paste the literal text in Google and in a surprisingly large number of > cases you find some real answers in the first page. > > > > This is also related to popularity of course. > > > > Sven > > >

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Toon Verwaest

On 05/06/2011 11:40 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >>> Regards, >> Something like the Pharo book that would contain also explanation about the language itself (and its libraries) would be great. >> Something like "teach yourself scheme in fixnum days" for Smalltalk. I loved the "teach yourself scheme in fixnum days" > may be you should open the pdf of pharo by example...... > or may be not > > Stef I meant the browsable html version. But ok, enough offense/defense for me.

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Lorenzo Schiavina

Great Stef! Lorenzo ----- Original Message ----- From: "StÃ©phane Ducasse" <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> To: <Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry Igor We should face it: the FFI and Alien... are not that simple. Laurent spent time to try to cnnect to libs and it did not work. So we should really improve that aspect. Igor not everbody is able to code in assembler for nativeboost. So NB is probably a good insfrastructure but not ready for consumption for everybody. The interaction with C should be improved :) Stef > So, read about it. It doesn't bites. :) > >> As I said, I am totally unaware of the limitations of the system, but >> that >> it did what I need, and would have liked to do that from Pharo/Squeak. I >> know Dolphin has/had certain capabilities. But I don't prefer to use >> non-open source software if at all possible for development. I also am >> very >> preferential towards cross-platform software. Dolphin fails on all >> accounts. >> I would choose my Python/Pharo blend over Dolphin any day. I know it >> introduces some pain, but I am willing to accept the pain. I like tools >> that >> allow me to use them where ever I am and whatever I am doing. >> >> However, that said, when I look at the facilities Python offers for such >> capabilities it on appearances looks quite impressive. >> >> http://docs.python.org/library/ctypes.html >> >> """ >> ctypes is a foreign function library for Python. It provides C compatible >> data types, and allows calling functions in DLLs or shared libraries. It >> can >> be used to wrap these libraries in pure Python. >> >> 15.18.1.1. Loading dynamic link libraries >> >> ctypes exports the cdll, and on Windows windll and oledll objects, for >> loading dynamic link libraries. >> >> You load libraries by accessing them as attributes of these objects. cdll >> loads libraries which export functions using the standard cdecl calling >> convention, while windll libraries call functions using the stdcall >> calling >> convention. oledll also uses the stdcall calling convention, and assumes >> the >> functions return a Windows HRESULT error code. The error code is used to >> automatically raise a WindowsError exception when the function call >> fails. >> >> Here are some examples for Windows. Note that msvcrt is the MS standard C >> library containing most standard C functions, and uses the cdecl calling >> convention: >> >>>>> from ctypes import * >>>>> print windll.kernel32 # doctest: +WINDOWS >> <WinDLL 'kernel32', handle ... at ...> >>>>> print cdll.msvcrt # doctest: +WINDOWS >> <CDLL 'msvcrt', handle ... at ...> >>>>> libc = cdll.msvcrt # doctest: +WINDOWS >>>> >> > > So? Why do you think that you cannot do the same in Pharo? > Have you digested what is available before doing it in Python? > > >> """ >> >> It has examples for windows and linux. >> > > I feel that you are seriously under-informed. > Just try googling for: > > Squeak + FFI > Alien > > NativeBoost > > and just check what you can do using it: > > http://www.squeaksource.com/NBOpenGL/ > > also check mail archives. > > Forgive me, but i really can't understand , why you can't just look > for what you need by yourself? > Are google.com banned by your ISP? > > For me this subject is interested in aspect, why this information > (while being available openly) didn't catch your > attention , so you using python instead. > (Okay, you might miss some functionality like being able to > automatically generate bindings to COM interfaces). > But again, i am sure that if you surf the net or ask right questions > on mailing list, you will probably discover that > there is already work being done in that direction. > And at last, if you feel that there is missing some key functionality > which you want, and you expect that it is also > could be useful to community, you can always implement it and share > with people (instead of using Python ;). > So, next who will come after you won't find himself in a desert with > couple of oasises few hundred miles away. > >> I didn't read it all as I am unqualified to assess its capabilities or >> limitations, nor do I presently need it as the win32 extensions do easily >> and well what I presently need to do. >> >> Hopefully it can inform us as to what is expected and doable in >> alternative >> languages which are dynamic like Smalltalk. >> >> Jimmie >> > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Nile tests red - Pharo 1.3

by Alain rastoul

Databases are heavy, I had a look at glorp tutorial pointed to by glorp.org, it seems pretty good. Perhaps few helpers or tools on top of it could simplify. On Fri, 6 May 2011 10:55:41 +0200, StÃ©phane Ducasse<stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > The problem of Glorp was that it is a bit heavyweight. -- Alain_rastoul

May 6, 2011