- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Dave Mason

On May 6, 2011, at 13:25, Igor Stasenko wrote: > Seriously, if you want such kind of shitty interface, which allows you > to call arbitrary function with arbitrary arguments > without any argument type checking, i can write it for you. Well, yes, actually. If it means they can access the big wide world beyond Smalltalk, lots of people *would* like that. Of course they'd like it better if there were the nice type-checking, etc. but presumably that would come incrementally. Seriously, this might be something I could contribute to Pharo. Especially if Igor can get a simple, but functional, start going easily. ../Dave

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Igor Stasenko

On 6 May 2011 18:45, laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Is it works because someone already provided a bindings for libraries >> you mention, >> or you did it by yourself? > > Have just used ctypes: >>>> import ctypes >>>> import ctypes.util >>>> ctypes.util.find_library("yaz") > '/usr/local/lib/libyaz.dylib' >>>> yaz = ctypes.cdll.LoadLibrary("libyaz.dylib") >>>> con = yaz.ZOOM_connection_new("z3950.loc.gov", 7090); oh cool.. give me a 5 minutes to load external library, look up the random symbol exported by it and make a call to it with random number of arguments, and expect it won't crash. Works outta box! Cool. Now serious. How about spending time writing a bindings for that library? Where you have properly organized classes/interfaces, error handling and other stuff. No takers? Seriously, if you want such kind of shitty interface, which allows you to call arbitrary function with arbitrary arguments without any argument type checking, i can write it for you. > Laurent -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] PetitParser puzzle

by Norbert Hartl

Ok, next try. Am 06.05.2011 um 13:59 schrieb Damien Pollet: > I have a unit test for a parser of mine: > > testLine > self fail: 'Just a line.' rule: #lineBlank. "passes" > self parse: 'Just a line.' rule: #lineNonBlank. "passes" > self parse: 'Just a line.' rule: #line. "end of input > expected at 0" > Here you test if the parser can consume all of the string. But it different to the situation if the parser succeeds. A star parser always succeeds. And the operator / only matches of the parser on the left side couldn't succeed. In the "line" case the lineBlank succeeds thus the right one is not tried. So no characters are consumed and the test fails because it does not parse. That was what first came to my mind but then I thought this might be just a hack to reverse the order of ther parser. But my initial mail was right. The more specific parser should go before to all matching parser. hope this helps, Norbert > Now the fun part: > > line > ^ lineBlank / lineNonBlank > > For reference, here are the rest of the involved rules: > > blank > ^ #blank asParser > > lineBlank > ^ blank star > > lineNonBlank > ^ blank star , blank not , lineEnd negate plus > > lineEnd > ^ (Character lf asParser) > / (Character cr asParser , Character lf asParser optional) > > Insights ? > > -- > Damien Pollet > type less, do more [ | ] http://people.untyped.org/damien.pollet >

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Igor Stasenko

On 6 May 2011 18:32, Stefan Marr <pharo(a)stefan-marr.de> wrote: > (And some more flame war here) > > > On 06 May 2011, at 17:11, Miguel CobÃ¡ wrote: > >>>>> No need to get into a cat-fight here :) >>>> >>>> No this is not my point. But what do people really do to help? >>> Stef, if you haven't noticed: I don't care about Smalltalk, and I don't care about Pharo, or any other language out there in particular. I don't share your vision, I have other goals in life. >> >> So what are you doing here, the less the noise the best for everyone >> else. You don't contribute, you only criticize, and then you said you >> don't care, the we don't care about your "opinion". You can keep it for >> yourself. > > Well, I think my work on the RoarVM is some contribution, no? Perhaps, I would be more interested in Pharo if it would actually run nicely on the RoarVM, but I am stuck with a Squeak 3.x MVC image for my day to day work. And without anyone from the community approaching the work to make Pharo thread-safe that won't change. It is nice to change the world with Pharo, but the future is multi/manycore and Pharo does not support it. > Ah, and the day has just 24h so don't expect anything from me beside the VM work, thats already enough to keep a whole team busy. This statement is true for most of us, just replace "VM" with something else. About RoarVM. I think the main reason why RoarVM does not exists for Pharo is because there was no discussion and planning beforehead, how we could cooperate. Where the discussion, how we could introduce new execution models, and gradually (means step by step) migrate to new VM? Take into account there there is virtually no knowledge outside of your team, what has to be changed in order to make Pharo run on RoarVM. So what did you expected? That people drop everything which already works well for them and hastily migrate to new platform? How about CogVM? Should we stop developing it? Or we should start supporting both? And can we do that without too much pain? Give us the idea. I, personally all for having VM which knows how to exploit multicore/manycore systems. But at what costs? At cost of throwing away everything and implementing new VM and new smalltalk from scratch? I can do that myself. But then i wouldn't come to pharo list to say that i don't give a shit about pharo. Because if i would like Pharo to use my stuff, i will stay with people and help, and try to figure out how we can manage to leverage new technology without jumping too high with the risk to break the legs. It makes no point saying here that you don't give a shit about Pharo. If you don't, why pharoers should? I appreciate the engineering effort what you have did. But its a top of the iceberg. Migrating existing system to another platform is very complex task, and given that day has 24 hours in it.. figure the answer :) > >>> That's what I mean. From my perspective, books about programming languages are a wast of effort. >>> You need a good entry level book, that is all it takes. >>> The rest is great online documentation. >> >> Umm, or you are very young or completely lost your mind. Internet as we >> know today has a decade at most. The documentation you as happy use now >> didn't existe 20 years ago. But, doesn't a lot of code was written more >> than Â 20 years ago. How is that possible just with fucking books and >> without google. >> -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] PetitParser puzzle

by Norbert Hartl

Oops, sorry, I was too quick the last reply. Norbert Am 06.05.2011 um 13:59 schrieb Damien Pollet: > I have a unit test for a parser of mine: > > testLine > self fail: 'Just a line.' rule: #lineBlank. "passes" > self parse: 'Just a line.' rule: #lineNonBlank. "passes" > self parse: 'Just a line.' rule: #line. "end of input > expected at 0" > > Now the fun part: > > line > ^ lineBlank / lineNonBlank > > For reference, here are the rest of the involved rules: > > blank > ^ #blank asParser > > lineBlank > ^ blank star > > lineNonBlank > ^ blank star , blank not , lineEnd negate plus > > lineEnd > ^ (Character lf asParser) > / (Character cr asParser , Character lf asParser optional) > > Insights ? > > -- > Damien Pollet > type less, do more [ | ] http://people.untyped.org/damien.pollet >

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Miguel CobÃ¡

El vie, 06-05-2011 a las 18:32 +0200, Stefan Marr escribiÃ³: > (And some more flame war here) > > > On 06 May 2011, at 17:11, Miguel CobÃ¡ wrote: > > >>>> No need to get into a cat-fight here :) > >>> > >>> No this is not my point. But what do people really do to help? > >> Stef, if you haven't noticed: I don't care about Smalltalk, and I don't care about Pharo, or any other language out there in particular. I don't share your vision, I have other goals in life. > > > > So what are you doing here, the less the noise the best for everyone > > else. You don't contribute, you only criticize, and then you said you > > don't care, the we don't care about your "opinion". You can keep it for > > yourself. > > Well, I think my work on the RoarVM is some contribution, no? Perhaps, I would be more interested in Pharo if it would actually run nicely on the RoarVM, but I am stuck with a Squeak 3.x MVC image for my day to day work. And without anyone from the community approaching the work to make Pharo thread-safe that won't change. It is nice to change the world with Pharo, but the future is multi/manycore and Pharo does not support it. Ah, and the day has just 24h so don't expect anything from me beside the VM work, thats already enough to keep a whole team busy. > I found your post very contradicting and without internal consistency. You don't care about smalltalk but are creating a vm should run smalltalk (squeak or pharo) in multiple core. Don't get it. Or you care that you dedicate time to it or you don't care and don't know why you build a multicore vm for a system you don't care (maybe the money, the papers, the citations, don't know) > > > >> That's what I mean. From my perspective, books about programming languages are a wast of effort. > That is BS. > How often do you see your colleagues going to the library, or the shelf next door to grab a book while they are programming? > It has been 10 years ago that they stopped doing so. That is the reason that O'Reilly books is broken and stop printing books 5 year ago right. Also this other publisher, I think they use to call themselves the pragmatic progammer, what a bunch of loser, trying to publish new books in this days that google has everything that is to know. Wait, no, they exists and publish books, maybe is for having something to do with their free time. > > Today, they google. Well, at least if they use another language than Smalltalk. > And I don't think there is something inherently wrong with that. > Yes but isn't the only way to get knowledge. Maybe assembler should be lectured no more, because we have high level programing languages and nobody needs that old tech anymore! You said: >> That's what I mean. From my perspective, books about programming languages are a wast of effort. and then: > I think, Stef's efforts of writing books should be supported, inconsistent! -- Miguel CobÃ¡ http://twitter.com/MiguelCobaMtz http://miguel.leugim.com.mx

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by laurent laffont

> > >> > Indeed, one thing FFI / Alien / NB don't have is a documentation as nice >> > as http://docs.python.org/library/ctypes.html >> > in http://book.pharo-project.org/ >> > FFI / Alien / NB may be powerful, it seems I've never managed to do what >> I >> > want, even with all mailing lists support (search mails on yaz / z3950 >> or >> > id3taglib). In Python it works on OSX out of the box (I've just tried :) >> > >> >> Is it works because someone already provided a bindings for libraries >> you mention, >> or you did it by yourself? >> > > Have just used ctypes: > > >>> import ctypes > >>> import ctypes.util > >>> ctypes.util.find_library("yaz") > '/usr/local/lib/libyaz.dylib' > >>> yaz = ctypes.cdll.LoadLibrary("libyaz.dylib") > >>> con = yaz.ZOOM_connection_new("z3950.loc.gov", 7090); > Indeed, I think the great thing is that I could write this in 5 mn just looking at the doc, haven't used python for years. In Pharo, well, ......... Laurent. > > Laurent > > >> >> Here a first hit from google search: >> >> http://lists.indexdata.dk/pipermail/yazlist/2002-May/000269.html >> >> <quote> >> I wrote these files for more than 2 years ago to play with SWIG and PERL, >> they >> are far from being used, but I have just done a fast perl test and the >> results >> were just fine. >> >> zclient.c >> zclient.h >> zclinet.i swig interface file >> >> The zclient_wrap.c will be created as >> >> > swig -python zclient.i >> >> which should be compiled and linked with the rest >> </quote> >> >> So? Do you think it was easy in first place to a guy who did it from >> scratch? >> Now you can easily use it (and its just works out of the box). But it >> is because someone did it before you! >> >> And if you gonna repeat same from scratch, then you will have to learn: >> - C >> - SWIG >> - Python >> >> so, do you still think that it easier to do that in Python than in >> Smalltalk? >> >> > But when I was working with Python and Ruby several years ago things was >> > easy (for my needs), I think because of documentation. >> > Laurent >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >> >> >

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] PetitParser puzzle

by Norbert Hartl

Am 06.05.2011 um 13:59 schrieb Damien Pollet: > I have a unit test for a parser of mine: > > testLine > self fail: 'Just a line.' rule: #lineBlank. "passes" > self parse: 'Just a line.' rule: #lineNonBlank. "passes" > self parse: 'Just a line.' rule: #line. "end of input > expected at 0" > > Now the fun part: > > line > ^ lineBlank / lineNonBlank > try line ^ lineNonBlank / lineBlank Norbert > For reference, here are the rest of the involved rules: > > blank > ^ #blank asParser > > lineBlank > ^ blank star > > lineNonBlank > ^ blank star , blank not , lineEnd negate plus > > lineEnd > ^ (Character lf asParser) > / (Character cr asParser , Character lf asParser optional) > > Insights ? > > -- > Damien Pollet > type less, do more [ | ] http://people.untyped.org/damien.pollet >

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] PBE in HTML [was: Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry]

by laurent laffont

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 5:30 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>wrote: > I installed pdf to html but I could not make it run :( htlatex seems OK, we can start with this. Need to supply a nice CSS though. I will try to find some time to play with (help always welcome :) Laurent. > On May 6, 2011, at 2:05 PM, laurent laffont wrote: > > > On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 11:56 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse < > stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > Ok if some good souls want to give a try to generate html. > > > > > > On OSX with MacTex-2010 installed, I've tried > > > > git clone --depth 1 > https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/PharoByExample-english.git > > cd PharoByExample-english/ > > htlatex PBE1.tex "html,2" > > > > Then open PBE1.html , one page per chapter. > > > > See http://www.tug.org/applications/tex4ht/mn-commands.html > > > > Laurent. > > > > > > > > > > Stef > > > > > > > > > Probably we should find a way to generate HTML from PDF or Latex. > > > Any ideas? > > > > > > I've used latex2html several years ago. > > > > > > +1 for html > > > > > > Laurent. > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Now for the documentation when did you send an help documentation > for any part of the system? > > > >>>> Or a bug fix? > > > >>>> I find quite funny that people always talk but few are doing. We > welcome comments/examples help. > > > >>> No need to get into a cat-fight here :) > > > >> > > > >> No this is not my point. But what do people really do to help? > > > >> > > > >>> I do agree with Stefan, as well as with you that we could help; but > I'm unaware of a good documentation effort outside of the image to start > with. Camillo's website project might be the best effort I've seen until > now; but then I didn't really look either. Maybe I missed some great > website? > > > >> > > > >> If this is just to spit out class comment on html I do not call that > a documentation. > > > >> Now we can take the book contents and generate html > > > >> We have 350 pages in the first book and the same in the second one. > > > >> People are free to join and write one or two chapters. > > > > > > > > StÃ©phane, > > > > > > > > Of course you are right: wining/complaining doesn't help, only action > does. We need more people like Laurent focusing on documentation. > > > > > > > > I for one think that the well written, high quality books that exist > (PBE, Seaside Book) are *very valuable*, much better than confusing wiki > site (although these have their place as well). > > > > > > > > But the other point is: in most other popular languages, what > current, young developers do, when they get an error that they don't > understand is copy/paste the literal text in Google and in a surprisingly > large number of cases you find some real answers in the first page. > > > > > > > > This is also related to popularity of course. > > > > > > > > Sven > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by laurent laffont

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 6 May 2011 07:11, laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 3:19 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> > >> On 6 May 2011 01:03, Jimmie Houchin <jlhouchin(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> > On 5/5/2011 4:25 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: > >> > > >> > On 5 May 2011 21:39, Jimmie Houchin <jlhouchin(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> > > >> > On 5/5/2011 12:21 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: > >> > > >> > On 5 May 2011 18:57, Jimmie Houchin<jlhouchin(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> > > >> > [Big Snip] > >> > > >> > Well said. > >> > Except that i'm not sharing your view that its hard to interface with > >> > foreign libraries. > >> > Its not hard at all. Of course to connect two different worlds, you > >> > need to have knowledge > >> > in both of them. But this requirement not a bit different when you > >> > take any other pair of languages and try to > >> > connect them. > >> > > >> > Thanks, > >> > > >> > I have no knowledge of either the knowledge or the challenges involved > >> > in > >> > using external libraries in Pharo or Squeak. I have no knowledge of > >> > FFI/Alien or using C/C++/C# or compilers. > >> > > >> > >> So, read about it. It doesn't bites. :) > >> > >> > As I said, I am totally unaware of the limitations of the system, but > >> > that > >> > it did what I need, and would have liked to do that from Pharo/Squeak. > I > >> > know Dolphin has/had certain capabilities. But I don't prefer to use > >> > non-open source software if at all possible for development. I also am > >> > very > >> > preferential towards cross-platform software. Dolphin fails on all > >> > accounts. > >> > I would choose my Python/Pharo blend over Dolphin any day. I know it > >> > introduces some pain, but I am willing to accept the pain. I like > tools > >> > that > >> > allow me to use them where ever I am and whatever I am doing. > >> > > >> > However, that said, when I look at the facilities Python offers for > such > >> > capabilities it on appearances looks quite impressive. > >> > > >> > http://docs.python.org/library/ctypes.html > >> > > >> > """ > >> > ctypes is a foreign function library for Python. It provides C > >> > compatible > >> > data types, and allows calling functions in DLLs or shared libraries. > It > >> > can > >> > be used to wrap these libraries in pure Python. > >> > > >> > 15.18.1.1. Loading dynamic link libraries > >> > > >> > ctypes exports the cdll, and on Windows windll and oledll objects, for > >> > loading dynamic link libraries. > >> > > >> > You load libraries by accessing them as attributes of these objects. > >> > cdll > >> > loads libraries which export functions using the standard cdecl > calling > >> > convention, while windll libraries call functions using the stdcall > >> > calling > >> > convention. oledll also uses the stdcall calling convention, and > assumes > >> > the > >> > functions return a Windows HRESULT error code. The error code is used > to > >> > automatically raise a WindowsError exception when the function call > >> > fails. > >> > > >> > Here are some examples for Windows. Note that msvcrt is the MS > standard > >> > C > >> > library containing most standard C functions, and uses the cdecl > calling > >> > convention: > >> > > >> >>>> from ctypes import * > >> >>>> print windll.kernel32 # doctest: +WINDOWS > >> > <WinDLL 'kernel32', handle ... at ...> > >> >>>> print cdll.msvcrt # doctest: +WINDOWS > >> > <CDLL 'msvcrt', handle ... at ...> > >> >>>> libc = cdll.msvcrt # doctest: +WINDOWS > >> >>> > >> > > >> > >> So? Why do you think that you cannot do the same in Pharo? > >> Have you digested what is available before doing it in Python? > >> > >> > >> > """ > >> > > >> > It has examples for windows and linux. > >> > > >> > >> I feel that you are seriously under-informed. > >> Just try googling for: > >> > >> Squeak + FFI > >> Alien > >> > >> NativeBoost > >> > >> and just check what you can do using it: > >> > >> http://www.squeaksource.com/NBOpenGL/ > >> > >> also check mail archives. > >> > >> Forgive me, but i really can't understand , why you can't just look > >> for what you need by yourself? > >> Are google.com banned by your ISP? > >> > >> For me this subject is interested in aspect, why this information > >> (while being available openly) didn't catch your > >> attention , so you using python instead. > >> (Okay, you might miss some functionality like being able to > >> automatically generate bindings to COM interfaces). > >> But again, i am sure that if you surf the net or ask right questions > >> on mailing list, you will probably discover that > >> there is already work being done in that direction. > > > > > > Indeed, one thing FFI / Alien / NB don't have is a documentation as nice > > as http://docs.python.org/library/ctypes.html > > in http://book.pharo-project.org/ > > FFI / Alien / NB may be powerful, it seems I've never managed to do what > I > > want, even with all mailing lists support (search mails on yaz / z3950 or > > id3taglib). In Python it works on OSX out of the box (I've just tried :) > > > > Is it works because someone already provided a bindings for libraries > you mention, > or you did it by yourself? > Have just used ctypes: >>> import ctypes >>> import ctypes.util >>> ctypes.util.find_library("yaz") '/usr/local/lib/libyaz.dylib' >>> yaz = ctypes.cdll.LoadLibrary("libyaz.dylib") >>> con = yaz.ZOOM_connection_new("z3950.loc.gov", 7090); Laurent > > Here a first hit from google search: > > http://lists.indexdata.dk/pipermail/yazlist/2002-May/000269.html > > <quote> > I wrote these files for more than 2 years ago to play with SWIG and PERL, > they > are far from being used, but I have just done a fast perl test and the > results > were just fine. > > zclient.c > zclient.h > zclinet.i swig interface file > > The zclient_wrap.c will be created as > > > swig -python zclient.i > > which should be compiled and linked with the rest > </quote> > > So? Do you think it was easy in first place to a guy who did it from > scratch? > Now you can easily use it (and its just works out of the box). But it > is because someone did it before you! > > And if you gonna repeat same from scratch, then you will have to learn: > - C > - SWIG > - Python > > so, do you still think that it easier to do that in Python than in > Smalltalk? > > > But when I was working with Python and Ruby several years ago things was > > easy (for my needs), I think because of documentation. > > Laurent > > > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. > >

May 6, 2011