- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by csrabak＠bol.com.br

Em 06/05/2011 06:34, StÃ©phane Ducasse < stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > escreveu: > Probably we should find a way to generate HTML from PDF or Latex. >From LaTeX to HTML obviously the path is to use LaTeX2HTML http://www.latex2html.org/ or if your LaTeX installation supports it htlatex to process the LaTeX sources into HTML pages. An older but still useful source of information is http://mirror.softwarelivre.ufsc.br/pub/ctan/info/webguide/webguide.html#QQ… > Any ideas? Create some classes in Pharo to do the job?

May 7, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Stefan Marr

On 07 May 2011, at 02:06, Igor Stasenko wrote: > On 6 May 2011 23:45, Stefan Marr <pharo(a)stefan-marr.de> wrote: >> There is nothing fundamental in the RoarVM that is changing the language semantics of Smalltalk. >> >> It is just that for: `[do something] fork` you will have to assume that it is executed in parallel to other code. >> > only that? > Heh.. then we're 99% done. Except that this last 1% is still could > take years to complete :) But why? We show with the Squeak 3.x MVC image that it is perfectly possible. (the change set is absolutely minimal, and the only thing we needed to fix was some Delay related issues) And, on top of that it is perfectly possible, there is a smooth transition path. You can tell all your Process objects to just run on the main core in the beginning, and then just use the other cores for code you wrote specifically. Thus, there is a nice step-wise path. And I think I outlined that in my 20min presentation at the school after Stef asked. BTW: are those videos somewhere accessible? >From my perspective all it takes is someone who actually cares, and has the time to experiment a bit with parallel programming. The kernel, and the tools can be migrated step by step. However, that is just on top of the current RoarVM, which is certainly not as attractive as a CogVM with real thread support. > I can tell you more: there is no business cases for VM(s) which can do > manycore :) No manycore perhaps, but luckily the low-power end is pushing to multicore solutions. So, your next iPhone and Android app will need to leverage at least two cores for optimal performance, and even quad-core phones are just around the corner. > Implementing VM which enabling massive parallelism is just a > beginning. Then obviously you need do to a lot at language side > to leverage that, in order to really say "yes, our system(s) are aware > of multicore and can scale almost linearly in future". No, don't think so. If people got deadlines and a need, they will do it with the tools at hand. And what I am doing here is absolutely not rocket science. Actually it is pretty hard to sell the engineering we do as science at all. Because the multicore VM problem has been solved a decade ago. They just forgot to tell us how... Best regards Stefan -- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525

May 7, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Igor Stasenko

On 6 May 2011 19:47, laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 7:25 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> On 6 May 2011 18:45, laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> > On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Is it works because someone already provided a bindings for libraries >> >> you mention, >> >> or you did it by yourself? >> > >> > Have just used ctypes: >> >>>> import ctypes >> >>>> import ctypes.util >> >>>> ctypes.util.find_library("yaz") >> > '/usr/local/lib/libyaz.dylib' >> >>>> yaz = ctypes.cdll.LoadLibrary("libyaz.dylib") >> >>>> con = yaz.ZOOM_connection_new("z3950.loc.gov", 7090); >> >> oh cool.. give me a 5 minutes to load external library, look up the >> random symbol exported by it >> and make a call to it with random number of arguments, and expect it >> won't crash. >> >> Works outta box! Cool. >> >> Now serious. How about spending time writing a bindings for that library? >> Where you have properly organized classes/interfaces, error handling >> and other stuff. >> No takers? >> >> Seriously, if you want such kind of shitty interface, which allows you >> to call arbitrary function with arbitrary arguments >> without any argument type checking, i can write it for you. > > > Do it, please do it. Seriously. Thanks > Laurent. Oh. Okay. I will put that in my years-long todo list. Remind me time to time :) > >> >> > Laurent >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >> > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

May 7, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Igor Stasenko

On 6 May 2011 23:45, Stefan Marr <pharo(a)stefan-marr.de> wrote: > > On 06 May 2011, at 19:08, Igor Stasenko wrote: > >> I think the main reason why RoarVM does not exists for Pharo is >> because there was no discussion and planning beforehead, how we could >> cooperate. >> Where the discussion, how we could introduce new execution models, and >> gradually (means step by step) migrate to new VM? > > Igor, I remember some discussion from the Smalltalk school, two important points: > > Â 1. it is not a new execution model, but you do not have your old scheduling guarantees anymore. > Â 2. "all it takes" is to make the important libraries thread-safe > > There is nothing fundamental in the RoarVM that is changing the language semantics of Smalltalk. > > It is just that for: `[do something] fork` you will have to assume that it is executed in parallel to other code. > only that? Heh.. then we're 99% done. Except that this last 1% is still could take years to complete :) > >> Take into account there there is virtually no knowledge outside of >> your team, what has to be changed in order to make Pharo run on >> RoarVM. >> So what did you expected? That people drop everything which already >> works well for them and hastily migrate to new platform? > No, of course not. I never expected anyone to jump onto a research platform, and it is also not really about > adopting our C++ code, but about trying to integrate the ideas into the standard VM with Cog. > > Talking with Eliot basically resulted in the insight that there is no major problem that would prevent the adoption of parallel execution in the CogVM. They only thing we became aware of that might be interesting are the PICs. And there he had a nice paper reference with a perfectly good solution... > >> How about CogVM? Should we stop developing it? Or we should start >> supporting both? And can we do that without too much pain? Give us the >> idea. > It is all about adopting the ideas, and I could collaboration on that, but I can't do that work. > The only problem I see is that there does not seem to be a business case for a CogVM with parallel Smalltalk Process execution. > I can tell you more: there is no business cases for VM(s) which can do manycore :) At least, to my perception, there is not much pressure from people (even on mainstream languages) to leverage this technology. I thought it is very close to come into our houses, but no.. it stuck somewhere on marketplace, buying a better clothes. Implementing VM which enabling massive parallelism is just a beginning. Then obviously you need do to a lot at language side to leverage that, in order to really say "yes, our system(s) are aware of multicore and can scale almost linearly in future". Now, given that squeak's code a hugely non-thread-safe, imagine how many iterations in redesign it would take to make it thread-safe first, and then make it run in parallel with rest of the stuff. > >> But then i wouldn't come >> to pharo list to say >> that i don't give a shit about pharo. > Igor, the fact that the community did not show active interest in the RoarVM is much older than my bold statement. > And, please understand my statement in the context of me not giving a damn about any particular language. > Seriously, I can stand those 'ah but my language is so much nicer' discussions. And this here is just a variation of it. > Languages are tools, and they are useful as long as they fit the problem. > The problem is that VM dictates , what problems you can solve with your language and what not. Squeak/Pharo is an excellent example of this. >> I appreciate the engineering effort what you have did. But its a top >> of the iceberg. Migrating existing system to another platform is very >> complex task, > > Actually, for the RoarVM it is not. It is a lot of work, but it is not complex. It is tedious, but it can be done in small well defined steps. Perfect small projects for interested students. I already convinced two guys to apply for the Google Summer of Code. But well, that never happened... > > So, I do what I can, and actually more. > But the community only responds to me when I say that I hate Smalltalk. > Strange, isn't it? > Why? Its natural. Meet a fans of <FOO> and say that <FOO> suck. What reaction you will get? Concerning why people not reacting to other things - i think that being able to run on tilera chips is too far perspective for those who just want to host their web-page which served by seaside, or generate some data analyzis or other boring domestic business modelling. Apparently, if you want your fruits to be picked up, they have to hang very low. Somewhere at the level of stomach. Not higher. And rocket science you doing , for most of people is at the level of stratosphere :) Once, for Squeak VM, i made an implementation to move scheduling away from VM into language. It was fully working, and you were free to change scheduling logic without touching VM anymore. What you think how many people reacted to that? How many of them would like to pursue this further? > Best regards > Stefan > > > -- > Stefan Marr > Software Languages Lab > Vrije Universiteit Brussel > Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium > http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr > Phone: +32 2 629 2974 > Fax: Â +32 2 629 3525 > > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

May 7, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Instantiations forum moved to forum.world.st!

by GermÃ¡n Arduino

Agree, great work Geert. 2011/5/6 Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com>: > Thanks Geert. Your efforts in world.st are incredible valuable for the > Smalltalk community! > > cheers > > mariano > > On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Geert Claes <geert.wl.claes(a)gmail.com> > wrote: >> >> I am happy to announce that Instantions' forum has joined all the other >> forums on Â http://forum.world.st forum.world.st Â and is now available at >> http://forum.world.st/Instantiations-f3404935.html >> forum.world.st/Instantiations-f3404935.html >> >> -- >> View this message in context: >> http://forum.world.st/Instantiations-forum-moved-to-forum-world-st-tp350290… >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> > > > > -- > Mariano > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > > -- ================================================= GermÃ¡n S. ArduinoÂ <gsa @ arsol.net>Â Â Twitter: garduino Arduino Software & Web HostingÂ Â http://www.arduinosoftware.com PasswordsProÂ http://www.passwordspro.com =================================================

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by GermÃ¡n Arduino

2011/5/6 Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)beta9.be>: > > On 06 May 2011, at 13:56, Johan Brichau wrote: > >> When I program in Smalltalk, I have a lot of open code browsers in my image >> When I program in Java/Javascript/..., I have a lot of open web pages on my desktop > > +1111 > > Browsing in a Smalltalk image should be self-documenting, not just because of comments, but because of beautiful, understandable code. > > A Dan Ingalls quote from "Design Principles Behind Smalltalk" ( http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/smalltalk.html ) > > Just to get warmed up, I'll start with a principle that is more social than technical and that is largely responsible for the particular bias of the Smalltalk project: > > Â Â Â Â Personal Mastery: If a system is to serve the creative spirit, it must be entirely comprehensible to a single individual. > > An excellent read, this document, by the way! > > Sven > > > Full agree. I talked exactly about "Personal Mastery" on my talk in Smalltalks 2010 explaining my pov about why Smalltalk is good from a MicroISV (and not excluding other sort of companies). The talks are in Vimeo: http://www.vimeo.com/21859511 (Sorry with the self-promotion, but I think is worth to share my experience).

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] [Pharo-users] [COTDC] 60 - DirectoryURI

by Guillermo Polito

I'd love to :). And OpaqueUri can be removed by just adding an attribute to URI for the boolean ;) On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 6:06 PM, laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com>wrote: > On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 8:21 PM, laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com > > wrote: > >> Today: DirectoryURI >> > > This class is empty and only referenced in URI class, could be replaced by > HierarchicalURI.... Should we remove / deprecate it ? > > Laurent. > > > >> >> >> Comment Of The Day Contest - One Day One Comment >> Rules: >> #1: Each day a not commented class is elected. Each day the best comment >> will be integrated with name of the author(s). >> #2: If you cannot comment it, deprecate it. >> Results: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/CommentOfTheDayContest >> >> Laurent >> > >

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Stefan Marr

On 06 May 2011, at 19:08, Igor Stasenko wrote: > I think the main reason why RoarVM does not exists for Pharo is > because there was no discussion and planning beforehead, how we could > cooperate. > Where the discussion, how we could introduce new execution models, and > gradually (means step by step) migrate to new VM? Igor, I remember some discussion from the Smalltalk school, two important points: 1. it is not a new execution model, but you do not have your old scheduling guarantees anymore. 2. "all it takes" is to make the important libraries thread-safe There is nothing fundamental in the RoarVM that is changing the language semantics of Smalltalk. It is just that for: `[do something] fork` you will have to assume that it is executed in parallel to other code. > Take into account there there is virtually no knowledge outside of > your team, what has to be changed in order to make Pharo run on > RoarVM. > So what did you expected? That people drop everything which already > works well for them and hastily migrate to new platform? No, of course not. I never expected anyone to jump onto a research platform, and it is also not really about adopting our C++ code, but about trying to integrate the ideas into the standard VM with Cog. Talking with Eliot basically resulted in the insight that there is no major problem that would prevent the adoption of parallel execution in the CogVM. They only thing we became aware of that might be interesting are the PICs. And there he had a nice paper reference with a perfectly good solution... > How about CogVM? Should we stop developing it? Or we should start > supporting both? And can we do that without too much pain? Give us the > idea. It is all about adopting the ideas, and I could collaboration on that, but I can't do that work. The only problem I see is that there does not seem to be a business case for a CogVM with parallel Smalltalk Process execution. > But then i wouldn't come > to pharo list to say > that i don't give a shit about pharo. Igor, the fact that the community did not show active interest in the RoarVM is much older than my bold statement. And, please understand my statement in the context of me not giving a damn about any particular language. Seriously, I can stand those 'ah but my language is so much nicer' discussions. And this here is just a variation of it. Languages are tools, and they are useful as long as they fit the problem. > I appreciate the engineering effort what you have did. But its a top > of the iceberg. Migrating existing system to another platform is very > complex task, Actually, for the RoarVM it is not. It is a lot of work, but it is not complex. It is tedious, but it can be done in small well defined steps. Perfect small projects for interested students. I already convinced two guys to apply for the Google Summer of Code. But well, that never happened... So, I do what I can, and actually more. But the community only responds to me when I say that I hate Smalltalk. Strange, isn't it? Best regards Stefan -- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

We might be able to introduce a way to look for a mangled match, proceeding if it it unique, or something like that?? I have just dealt with it by finding the exported name and putting in the call definition. ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of laurent laffont [laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 4:44 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu<mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>> wrote: Laurent, I am starting to understand your pain, or at least how it manifests itself in my world. First, the search path for libraries (Unix VM) can be a problem, not because of how it works, but because it does not tell me what it is trying to do. IMHO, any time the vm translates something (library name to search path, COM port name to number or vice versa), it should describe what it did, perhaps only if the attempt to open/load/whatever fails (if a load works, I'm probably happy and not looking). I have been known to hack the vm to add such tracing - syslog, stdout - wherever, but somewhere. Yes. I remember some mails you sent on this subject some months ago. Mangled names are another topic, but I do NOT consider this to be a Squeak/Pharo/VM failing of any type. The author of the library failed to use extern "C" - simple as that. I wonder why Python / Ruby can manage mangled names and that FFI don't. Because it's a real pain. Laurent. The most recent encounter I had with this was on Windows, and I left behind the following comment: The conspicuous (in hindsight) absence of extern "C" from the header file comes at a price: the names are mangled. Enter pexports.exe and some copy/paste with periodic acerbic remarks. Translation: if you have not done this, consider using pexports.exe to obtain the true exported symbol names, and put them (with ?@, etc. intact) in your FFI definitions. HTH. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr> [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr>] On Behalf Of laurent laffont [laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com<mailto:laurent.laffont@gmail.com>] Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 2:34 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 8:06 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu<mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu><mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu<mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>>> wrote: No real agenda either way here, except to say that we almost have that in FFI. If you know enough to make the call, do you not know enough to write the FFI wrapper? Just asking. Having stirred the broth, I'll shut up and learn :) My last attempts: http://forum.world.st/Re-Z3950-on-OSX-module-yaz3-not-found-tp3161332p31613… http://forum.world.st/Re-FFI-crashes-VM-on-Linux-was-Z3950-on-OSX-module-ya… Any help appreciated. Laurent. ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr><mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr>> [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr><mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr>>] On Behalf Of laurent laffont [laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com<mailto:laurent.laffont@gmail.com><mailto:laurent.laffont@gmail.com<mailto:laurent.laffont@gmail.com>>] Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 1:47 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr><mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 7:25 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com<mailto:siguctua@gmail.com><mailto:siguctua@gmail.com<mailto:siguctua@gmail.com>><mailto:siguctua@gmail.com<mailto:siguctua@gmail.com><mailto:siguctua@gmail.com<mailto:siguctua@gmail.com>>>> wrote: On 6 May 2011 18:45, laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com<mailto:laurent.laffont@gmail.com><mailto:laurent.laffont@gmail.com<mailto:laurent.laffont@gmail.com>><mailto:laurent.laffont@gmail.com<mailto:laurent.laffont@gmail.com><mailto:laurent.laffont@gmail.com<mailto:laurent.laffont@gmail.com>>>> wrote: > On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com<mailto:siguctua@gmail.com><mailto:siguctua@gmail.com<mailto:siguctua@gmail.com>><mailto:siguctua@gmail.com<mailto:siguctua@gmail.com><mailto:siguctua@gmail.com<mailto:siguctua@gmail.com>>>> wrote: >> >> Is it works because someone already provided a bindings for libraries >> you mention, >> or you did it by yourself? > > Have just used ctypes: >>>> import ctypes >>>> import ctypes.util >>>> ctypes.util.find_library("yaz") > '/usr/local/lib/libyaz.dylib' >>>> yaz = ctypes.cdll.LoadLibrary("libyaz.dylib") >>>> con = yaz.ZOOM_connection_new("z3950.loc.gov<http://z3950.loc.gov><http://z3950.loc.gov><http://z3950.loc.gov>", 7090); oh cool.. give me a 5 minutes to load external library, look up the random symbol exported by it and make a call to it with random number of arguments, and expect it won't crash. Works outta box! Cool. Now serious. How about spending time writing a bindings for that library? Where you have properly organized classes/interfaces, error handling and other stuff. No takers? Seriously, if you want such kind of shitty interface, which allows you to call arbitrary function with arbitrary arguments without any argument type checking, i can write it for you. Do it, please do it. Seriously. Thanks Laurent. > Laurent -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Toon Verwaest

> I am interested in VMs, so why do I need to care about the language on top? Actually, I do research in how to support all kind of different languages on top of the same VM, because there is not a single language that is the ultimate answer to all problems. That is why I do not care about any particular language. > Just look at the JVM. How much of its technology was developed in the pure Java context? Not a lot. Most was actually conceived for Smalltalk. > As long as the languages have some commonalities and are not based on graph-reduction like Haskell, then they usually don't require a completely new designed VM, but a nice set of common abstractions. So why, as a researcher, should I care about Smalltalk? Smalltalk is not the final answer, and will never be. Neither is any other single language. +1 > Just answer the question! How often do your colleagues grab a book from the shelf? How often a day, how often a week? Some of my colleagues use books quite often. They like to put their monitors on them. :) > Still, there is already a good thing coming out of the whole flame war. Laurent took the time to look into how to make the books web-accessible. All it took was a small nudge in the right direction. Yay :) Lets stop this thread in peace and have a nice weekend :) Goodbye and thanks for all the fish!

May 6, 2011