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[Pharo-project] Can't load OSProcess in last Pharo Core 1.3

by Adrien BARREAU

Hi all, I just tried to load OSProcess in the last PharoCore 1.3 (I took it from hudson). It fails when it tries to add ThisOSProcess to the startup list with: Smalltalk addToStartUpList: ThisOSProcess after: ImageSegment. in ThisOSProcess class>>initialize. It seems that ImageSegment is not in the StartUpList anymore. Is that normal? Adrien.

May 20, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Name spaces

by Marcus Denker

On May 20, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Toon Verwaest wrote: >>> >> Maybe we can establish a new tradition and have a 100+ discussion about namespaces >> every year. It worked well for Squeak... > Wasn't the whole idea of Pharo to turn every "discussion in Squeak" into a "do in pharo"? Yes. We want namespaces. But we don't want to discuss about them now if we don't have the manpower to *do* anything. Let's finish the stuff already started... we really can't open yet another things now. (At least I can't. I can't even read a discussion. I am full) Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD.

May 20, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] SIXX problem for ScaledDecimal

by Ralph Boland

> From: Chris Cunningham <cunningham.cb(a)gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] SIXX problem for ScaledDecimal > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Message-ID: <BANLkTinP7E_oh2Fi2=axmra6JsoXVJYWkg(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > For ScaledDecimal, SIXX should definite store it as the underlying > fraction. Storing it in the printed fashion does change the value of > the ScaledDecimal. > (1/3) asScaledDecimal: 2 gives 0.33s2 > and > (33/100) asScaledDecimal: 2 gives 0.33s2 > yet > 0.33s2 ~= ( (1/3) asScaledDecimal: 2 ) > and > ( (1/3) asScaledDecimal: 2 ) ~= ( (33/100) asScaledDecimal: 2 ) > In other words, the ScaledDecimal is about the precise internal number > and the scale to display it - which is NOT the scale that it is stored > as. > -Chris I don't agree. ScaledDecimal would be used where consistency is often more important than accuracy, e.g. in Financial calculations where being off by a few pennies doesn't matter but always getting the same answer matters a LOT. Once a number is converted to a ScaledDecimal computations must always produce the same result assuming enough digits. To ensure this asScaledDecimal must produce a scaled decimal for use in computations and, as such, storing a fraction internally is unacceptable. >From a financial point of view 1/3 * 3 is not 1! >From a programmers point of view asScaledDecimal changes the value in much the same way asInteger does for a float. Having said all of this allow me to contradict myself. It seems to me that a scaled decimal should in general store more digits than are displayed. For example money might be stored with a large (possibly arbitrary) number of digits after the decimal point but only display two digits beyond the decimal point. I don't know how ScaledDecimal is implemented but I would be inclined to use arbitrary or large size integers and store the location of the decimal point internally recomputing the position of the decimal point after each calculation. This is an expensive way of doing computations but I expect users of ScaledDecimal can live with that. When converting non decimal results to ScaledDecimal then how many digits of precision to maintain must be specified somehow. Dealing with ScaledDecimal is a complicated matter and I have probably failed to appreciate many of the complications but whoever is implementing ScaledDecimal (and Smalltalk needs ScaledDecimal) needs to appreciate those complications. Anybody here a financial expert? Ralph Boland

May 20, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Name spaces

by Janko MivÅ¡ek

On 20. 05. 2011 16:30, Toon Verwaest wrote: > On 05/20/2011 03:46 PM, Marcus Denker wrote: >>>>> sorry guy I do not have the time for discussing that. >>>> But it is certainly needed to be discussed and it would be nice if at >>>> least a timeframe for this discussion is announced. If not put in a >>>> plan for Pharo ... >>> Yes, name spaces haven't yet been discussed enough. >> Maybe we can establish a new tradition and have a 100+ discussion >> about namespaces every year. It worked well for Squeak... > Wasn't the whole idea of Pharo to turn every "discussion in Squeak" into > a "do in pharo"? That's exactly what I wanted to add :) Janko -- Janko MivÅ¡ek Aida/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si

May 20, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Name spaces

by Nicolas Petton

What did I say... I didn't mean to start an endless discussion, I don't know at all what is the state of namespaces in Pharo. Sorry for not following more this ML, I guess. Nicolas Le vendredi 20 mai 2011 Ã 16:00 +0200, Philippe Marschall a Ã©crit : > On 05/20/2011 03:46 PM, Marcus Denker wrote: > > > > On May 20, 2011, at 3:43 PM, Philippe Marschall wrote: > > > >> On 05/20/2011 02:52 PM, Janko MivÅ¡ek wrote: > >>> On 20. 05. 2011 14:15, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > >>> > >>>>>>> I'm wondering what is the status of the name spaces project developed last summer as part of GSoC. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> nowhere and do not expect it to be in pharo. > >>>>> > >>>>> Why that? Is it because of the implementation or because you don't want > >>>>> namespaces in Pharo? > >>>> > >>>> sorry guy I do not have the time for discussing that. > >>> > >>> But it is certainly needed to be discussed and it would be nice if at > >>> least a timeframe for this discussion is announced. If not put in a plan > >>> for Pharo ... > >> > >> Yes, name spaces haven't yet been discussed enough. > >> > > Maybe we can establish a new tradition and have a 100+ discussion about namespaces > > every year. It worked well for Squeak... > > Like we already have for why Smalltalk is not more popular. That would > be nice. > > Cheers > Philippe > > -- Nicolas Petton http://www.nicolas-petton.fr

May 20, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Just in case ...

by Max Leske

Sources / changes files: As far as I'm concerned: not needed anymore. If there is to be a file that contains source code it should have a different format than the changes / sources files have today: they are very hard to understand when looked at with a text editor the mechanism used to read / write the files should not be hard coded into the filesystem library if the files contain special symbols (#method, #preamble, #classComment etc.), give the symbols a place to live and don't expect developers to go and collect symbols from serveral different methods DOCUMENT THE FORMAT AND THE IMPLEMENATION! Finally. That had to get out... :) Cheers, Max On 20.05.2011, at 16:02, Torsten Bergmann wrote: > Short mental exercise: > > What if ... diskpacks are burned and someone would come, give you > enough time and resources to (re)implement the Pharo system and VM > from scratch: > > Pharo Image/Sources > - how would it look like > - how would it differ from current design > - what would be included > - how would it be maintained > - how would it be used/who would use it > > VM > - how would it look like > - how would it differ from current VM design > - how would it be implemented/generated > - how would it be maintained > > Even answers are welcome with ideas impossible to realize > in the near future ... but it may help to find > > - possible next steps > - features we havent thought about, yet > > Thx > T. > > > > > -- > Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir > belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de >

May 20, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Name spaces

by Toon Verwaest

On 05/20/2011 03:46 PM, Marcus Denker wrote: > On May 20, 2011, at 3:43 PM, Philippe Marschall wrote: > >> On 05/20/2011 02:52 PM, Janko MivÅ¡ek wrote: >>> On 20. 05. 2011 14:15, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >>> >>>>>>> I'm wondering what is the status of the name spaces project developed last summer as part of GSoC. >>>>>> nowhere and do not expect it to be in pharo. >>>>> Why that? Is it because of the implementation or because you don't want >>>>> namespaces in Pharo? >>>> sorry guy I do not have the time for discussing that. >>> But it is certainly needed to be discussed and it would be nice if at >>> least a timeframe for this discussion is announced. If not put in a plan >>> for Pharo ... >> Yes, name spaces haven't yet been discussed enough. >> > Maybe we can establish a new tradition and have a 100+ discussion about namespaces > every year. It worked well for Squeak... Wasn't the whole idea of Pharo to turn every "discussion in Squeak" into a "do in pharo"? > Marcus > > > -- > Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de > INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD. > >

May 20, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Name spaces

by Bernat Romagosa

Obviously, we don't have namespaces because squeaksource doesn't allow smalltalk to be popular enough. Sorry, I had to say it :D

May 20, 2011

[Pharo-project] Just in case ...

by Torsten Bergmann

Short mental exercise: What if ... diskpacks are burned and someone would come, give you enough time and resources to (re)implement the Pharo system and VM from scratch: Pharo Image/Sources - how would it look like - how would it differ from current design - what would be included - how would it be maintained - how would it be used/who would use it VM - how would it look like - how would it differ from current VM design - how would it be implemented/generated - how would it be maintained Even answers are welcome with ideas impossible to realize in the near future ... but it may help to find - possible next steps - features we havent thought about, yet Thx T. -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de

May 20, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Name spaces

by Philippe Marschall

On 05/20/2011 03:46 PM, Marcus Denker wrote: > > On May 20, 2011, at 3:43 PM, Philippe Marschall wrote: > >> On 05/20/2011 02:52 PM, Janko MivÅ¡ek wrote: >>> On 20. 05. 2011 14:15, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >>> >>>>>>> I'm wondering what is the status of the name spaces project developed last summer as part of GSoC. >>>>>> >>>>>> nowhere and do not expect it to be in pharo. >>>>> >>>>> Why that? Is it because of the implementation or because you don't want >>>>> namespaces in Pharo? >>>> >>>> sorry guy I do not have the time for discussing that. >>> >>> But it is certainly needed to be discussed and it would be nice if at >>> least a timeframe for this discussion is announced. If not put in a plan >>> for Pharo ... >> >> Yes, name spaces haven't yet been discussed enough. >> > Maybe we can establish a new tradition and have a 100+ discussion about namespaces > every year. It worked well for Squeak... Like we already have for why Smalltalk is not more popular. That would be nice. Cheers Philippe

May 20, 2011