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Re: [Pharo-project] usability of Pharo and Squeak

by Geert Claes

Andreas Wacknitz wrote: > > ... > His biggest complaint is: "Why does Pharo always show windows at sizes and > positions I don't want?" > ... > > His second complaint was that he doesn't like the cluttered windows. While > programming he had a lot of open windows and told me that he lost > overview. > ... > I completely agree that Pharo still has a lot of usability issues BUT in the same breath I also acknowledge that there already have been some big improvements since Pharo's inception! The cluttered windows and odd default sizes and positions, no top menu etc do look a bit strange. Another common usability issue is that buttons are often used even when a button really is not the appropriate control. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/usability-of-Pharo-and-Squeak-tp3562378p3562414.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

May 31, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] usability of Pharo and Squeak

by Marcus Denker

On May 31, 2011, at 8:19 AM, Andreas Wacknitz wrote: > Hi all, > > I have convinced a friend to take a closer look at Pharo 1.2.1 and Dolphin Smalltalk. He is an experienced Java developer. > After some time he started to complain about Pharo. I was discussing with him and now think that he has some valid points. > > His biggest complaint is: "Why does Pharo always show windows at sizes and positions I don't want?" > I answered him: You could set the standard window size in the class RealEstateAgent and furthermore you can create or change >>initialExtent methods in every class that is involved. > But his answer was: Why should I do that? It's the responsibility of an IDE. I don't want to program elementary things of my IDE. Why is there no mechanism that let a user set the sizes and positions of windows? Netbeans and Eclipse are doing that nicely. Why isn't it possible in Pharo? > After that discussion I now question my own way of using Pharo and Squeak. I have created some changesets that I used to file in when using > a fresh image. But that seems stupid now... > The RealEstateAgent assumes a machine in the spirit of one with a screenseize of 800*600 (old imac). It should be re-implemented taking into account we are now 15 years later. Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD.

May 31, 2011

[Pharo-project] usability of Pharo and Squeak

by Andreas Wacknitz

Hi all, I have convinced a friend to take a closer look at Pharo 1.2.1 and Dolphin Smalltalk. He is an experienced Java developer. After some time he started to complain about Pharo. I was discussing with him and now think that he has some valid points. His biggest complaint is: "Why does Pharo always show windows at sizes and positions I don't want?" I answered him: You could set the standard window size in the class RealEstateAgent and furthermore you can create or change >>initialExtent methods in every class that is involved. But his answer was: Why should I do that? It's the responsibility of an IDE. I don't want to program elementary things of my IDE. Why is there no mechanism that let a user set the sizes and positions of windows? Netbeans and Eclipse are doing that nicely. Why isn't it possible in Pharo? After that discussion I now question my own way of using Pharo and Squeak. I have created some changesets that I used to file in when using a fresh image. But that seems stupid now... His second complaint was that he doesn't like the cluttered windows. While programming he had a lot of open windows and told me that he lost overview. Especially in Pharo he is complaining about minimized windows that are hard to distinguish. He better likes Dolphin with tabbed windows that are common in other IDE's. Regards Andreas

May 31, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] looking for inputField with memory of the last typed entries

by Alain Plantec

Something like the input field of the SettingsBrowser ? Alain Le 30/05/2011 21:37, stephane ducasse a Ã©crit : > Hi > > I would like to know if an inputField with last typed entry is available in Pharo (if not I will ask benjamin to see what he can do) > because we need better widgets. > > Stef

May 31, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] A radical proposal (to cut down dead code)

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On May 31, 2011, at 4:27 AM, Eliot Miranda wrote: > > > On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 6:50 PM, Craig Latta <craig(a)netjam.org> wrote: > > > [It's] impossible to authoritatively classify anything as "dead > > code" unless there's a reference standard of what's core and what's > > not core... > > Yeah, in the meantime I define "dead" as "not run for some amount > of time". > > Surely "dead" means not used in the transitive closure of useful packages. I don't see anyone in this thread proposing to trawl Monticello repositories looking for the latest versions of packages and then analysing what messages these packages send. IMO, only by doing this will you be able to define what's used in the image. One could try and relate the messages used to the publish date of packages to try and get some idea of the up-to-date-ness of messages. One can perhaps attempt to make some determination of the liveness of the package by asking the community (basing this on e.g. last time it was downloaded creates the heisenbug of package trawling needing to download packages. Yes. I hope that we will be able to use a Ring based code database + metacello configuration repository for that. > Am I mad or is the set of packages out there in Monitcello repositories and on SqueakMap what really constitutes the working set that the base image needs to support? > > best, > Eliot > > > -C > > -- > Craig Latta > www.netjam.org/resume > +31 06 2757 7177 > + 1 415 287 3547 > > > > >

May 31, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] looking for inputField with memory of the last typed entries

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Frankly I do not care :) We are not in the situation of discussing about framework that we do not have. Now if you give me a cool framework like MVP (and I know MVP) then I have no problem to optimize it. Now to optimize something you should have something else. Stef On May 31, 2011, at 12:38 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Stef, > > With my MVP bias clearly re-stated, is this really the job of the widget, or of the containing/composite presenter? Depending on what behavior you want, it might be a widget/view customization, but it never hurts to ask the question. > > Bill > > > ________________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of stephane ducasse [stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr] > Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 3:37 PM > To: An open mailing list to discuss any topics related to an open-source Smalltalk > Subject: [Pharo-project] looking for inputField with memory of the last typed entries > > Hi > > I would like to know if an inputField with last typed entry is available in Pharo (if not I will ask benjamin to see what he can do) > because we need better widgets. > > Stef >

May 31, 2011

[Pharo-project] excellent job: netstylers :)

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

http://www.cmsbox.com/en/showcase/our-websites Stef

May 31, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] A radical proposal (to cut down dead code)

by Eliot Miranda

On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 6:50 PM, Craig Latta <craig(a)netjam.org> wrote: > > > [It's] impossible to authoritatively classify anything as "dead > > code" unless there's a reference standard of what's core and what's > > not core... > > Yeah, in the meantime I define "dead" as "not run for some amount > of time". > Surely "dead" means not used in the transitive closure of useful packages. I don't see anyone in this thread proposing to trawl Monticello repositories looking for the latest versions of packages and then analysing what messages these packages send. IMO, only by doing this will you be able to define what's used in the image. One could try and relate the messages used to the publish date of packages to try and get some idea of the up-to-date-ness of messages. One can perhaps attempt to make some determination of the liveness of the package by asking the community (basing this on e.g. last time it was downloaded creates the heisenbug of package trawling needing to download packages. Am I mad or is the set of packages out there in Monitcello repositories and on SqueakMap what really constitutes the working set that the base image needs to support? best, Eliot > > > -C > > -- > Craig Latta > www.netjam.org/resume > +31 06 2757 7177 > + 1 415 287 3547 > > > > >

May 31, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] A radical proposal (to cut down dead code)

by Craig Latta

> [It's] impossible to authoritatively classify anything as "dead > code" unless there's a reference standard of what's core and what's > not core... Yeah, in the meantime I define "dead" as "not run for some amount of time". -C -- Craig Latta www.netjam.org/resume +31 06 2757 7177 + 1 415 287 3547

May 31, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] A radical proposal (to cut down dead code)

by Casimiro de Almeida Barreto

Em 30-05-2011 17:23, Marcus Denker escreveu: > On May 30, 2011, at 9:59 PM, Casimiro de Almeida Barreto wrote: > >> Regarding this subject I think: >> >> â¢ There's impossible to authoritatively classify anything as "dead code" unless there's a reference standard of what's core and what's not core (like, Java defines the JFCs). At this point it would be useful to have a reference standard of "core classes" and their "core messages/methods". >> > We do not have such a reference. I do not know how you can build one without cleaning up. > > Marcus In my mind such a cycle would be something like: freeze -> clean up & debug -> map dependencies -> orthogonalize -> define core & extras -> implement control mechanisms to avoid "contamination/degradation" of core stuff -> document CdAB > > -- > Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de > INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD. > > >

May 31, 2011