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Re: [Pharo-project] type-inference: it works!

by Alexandre Bergel

Ah okay. But still, I think a comparison is scientifically relevant. Alexandre On 30 Mar 2012, at 14:20, Francisco Garau wrote: > I think they are not comparable. > > They both try to do Type-Inference. But... what is a Type? > > Roel Typer works backwards. > My TiEngine works forwards. > > Roel Typer works backwards because it starts analysing a method a finds a message send, lets say "anObject setup". It then asks the question, who implements the method #setup and if it finds 13 different classes, then those are the "Type" of the anObject. > > My TiEngine starts executing code without actually executing anything. It simulates execution making sure it goes through all the possible execution paths. That's is not always possible, so some compromise should be made. > > Reflection is the killer of any sort of static analysis. > > - Francisco > > > On 30 March 2012 17:17, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: > Ah okays. Have you made some comparison with the result of Roel Typer? > That would be an interesting point to compare with. > > cheers, > Alexandre > > > > On 30 Mar 2012, at 09:33, Francisco Garau wrote: > >> No unit tests, sorry... >> >> Is not profiling, it's abstract intrepretation using types instead of objects. >> >> - Francisco >> >> >> On 30 Mar 2012, at 15:15, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Francisco, >>> >>> I've tried your implementation. It seems to work in Pharo 1.4. Do you have unit test somewhere? >>> How does your profiler work? From what you have said in your email, it seems you are profiling the execution. Is that true? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Alexandre >>> >>> >>> On 29 Mar 2012, at 18:47, Francisco Garau wrote: >>> >>>> Load the attached ChangeSets: first Ti-Engine and then Ti-Support. >>>> >>>> You could then evaluate the below expressions -- watch the Transcript to see which methods are being analysed. >>>> >>>> TiSystem current reset. >>>> string := '3 + 4'. >>>> Compiler new analyze: string in: nil to: nil notifying: nil ifFail: [1]. >>>> "=> return {<SmallInteger>} " >>>> >>>> TiSystem current reset. >>>> string := 'Display boundingBox'. >>>> Compiler new analyze: string in: nil to: nil notifying: nil ifFail: [1]. >>>> "=> return {<Rectangle origin: <Point x: <SmallInteger> y: <SmallInteger>> corner: <Point x: <SmallInteger> y: <SmallInteger>>>}" >>>> >>>> TiSystem current explore. >>>> >>>> Analysing 'Display boundingBox' shows a couple of surprises: >>>> The code never goes through the #new method (it creates objects using #basicNew and #@) >>>> Object code goes through Object>>value but knowing that the implementation just answers self, it could be easily optimised. >>>> >>>> I will try to package it more nicely under Monticello -- there are still a few rough edges that need to be polished before getting it to the same state it was in 2001... >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Francisco >>>> <Ti-Engine.2.cs><Ti-Support.2.cs> >>> >>> -- >>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

March 31, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] direct object manipulation

by Eliot Miranda

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 1:20 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > wrote: > > On Mar 30, 2012, at 9:50 PM, phil(a)highoctane.be wrote: > > > This is a chicken and egg problem. > > And a popularity contest game as well. > > > > Without one click, you'll piss people off fast and they'll go look > elsewhere. Then you loose traction and that's bad. > > > > If I didn't had one click, I wouldn't have been learning as fast as I've > been. > > I agree with you. > > > Now I do have all pieces from different locations (even wanting to build > the VM on my own). > > > > For contrast, look at another community I am part of: Tiki Wiki CMS > Groupware. The system is topping SourceForge number of downloads, > committers, and is a general success for intranets in companies. > > > > Of course, the paradigm isn't pure at all, but easy enough to have a lot > of people contributing good stuff. > > > > We are at version 9 and I don't know any other package that is as > feature rich when it comes to the web. > > We are talking more than a million lines of code here. > > Now, we are moving further than one click: hosting providers provide a > full VM with everything installed for the stack. > > > > As of software developers, I do view 4 categories: > > > > - constructivists using established abstractions and not requiring > further exposure to inner workings of the system. They deliver business > value for common problems. > > - bridges understanding how the system works inside and are able to > convey usage patterns to the constructivists. They also feed back real > world usage problems to the next kind so that the system stays useful and > not pie in the skyish. > > - abstractionists: able to come up with a powerful set of abstractions > to solve a given problem in a general manner. Framework makers are here > > - technology makers: create core tech. Like a Cog-VM thing, CUDA, .. > > > > Try to pair types by jumping one strata and you are asking for trouble. > > > > Except for rare seasoned developers that are master of their craft and > are able to display behavioral flexibility. > > But these are a rare breed and you won't get them for a long time anyway > as these are seekers. > > I want a good installer for each platform :) > For newspeak there is a native installer for Mac OS and Windows. See http://www.squeakvm.org/svn/squeak/branches/Cog/nscogbuild/cygwinbuild/inst… http://www.squeakvm.org/svn/squeak/branches/Cog/nscogbuild/macbuild/install…. These allow one to install whatever one specifies using a native installer. The WIndows code is a little hairy and the Mac OS code is very simple. So if you consider a native installer a good introductory choice (it doesn't have to be the only one) then take a look. I can help with anyone trying to tailor to the WIndows installer. > And I want to let a chance to people to decide when they have to deal with > low level. > Pushing shit on their faces as a welcome message is not what we want. > > Now alex shipping cairo lib may be not be the best to do. It tooks some > time to compile on my machine > and it means some work to build the right libr for each sub platforms: 32, > 64â¦.. > > Now you can also use VW. :) For me this is simply no way. ;) > > Stef > > > > -- best, Eliot

March 31, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Emergency evaluator pops up on red tests

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

PPPHPCoreGrammar ignoredNames #('properties' 'parser' 'keywords') browseSelectorsOn: aBrowser aBrowser list title: 'Productions'; format: [ :class | class asString ]; display: [ :class | ((((class allInstVarNames copyWithoutAll: class ignoredNames) copyWithoutAll: self rootClass allInstVarNames) collect: [ :each | each asSymbol ]) select: [ :each | class includesSelector: each ]) asSortedCollection ]; selectionAct: [ StandardToolSet ^^^^^^^^ does not exist anymore in 1.4 I guess but this is should not be related to this bug. -> use Smalltalk tools browser browse: self selectedClass selector: self selectedSelector ] on: $b entitled: 'browse (b)'; selectionAct: [ | class selector | class := self selectedClass. selector := self selectedSelector. (class instVarNames includes: selector) ifTrue: [ class removeInstVarName: selector ]. class removeSelector: selector. aBrowser entity: self rootModel. self selectedClass: class ] on: $r entitled: 'remove (x)'

March 31, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] type-inference: it works!

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Ti is an abstract interpreter from your description. On Mar 30, 2012, at 8:20 PM, Francisco Garau wrote: > I think they are not comparable. > > They both try to do Type-Inference. But... what is a Type? > > Roel Typer works backwards. > My TiEngine works forwards. > > Roel Typer works backwards because it starts analysing a method a finds a message send, lets say "anObject setup". It then asks the question, who implements the method #setup and if it finds 13 different classes, then those are the "Type" of the anObject. > > My TiEngine starts executing code without actually executing anything. It simulates execution making sure it goes through all the possible execution paths. That's is not always possible, so some compromise should be made. > > Reflection is the killer of any sort of static analysis. > > - Francisco > > > On 30 March 2012 17:17, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: > Ah okays. Have you made some comparison with the result of Roel Typer? > That would be an interesting point to compare with. > > cheers, > Alexandre > > > > On 30 Mar 2012, at 09:33, Francisco Garau wrote: > >> No unit tests, sorry... >> >> Is not profiling, it's abstract intrepretation using types instead of objects. >> >> - Francisco >> >> >> On 30 Mar 2012, at 15:15, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Francisco, >>> >>> I've tried your implementation. It seems to work in Pharo 1.4. Do you have unit test somewhere? >>> How does your profiler work? From what you have said in your email, it seems you are profiling the execution. Is that true? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Alexandre >>> >>> >>> On 29 Mar 2012, at 18:47, Francisco Garau wrote: >>> >>>> Load the attached ChangeSets: first Ti-Engine and then Ti-Support. >>>> >>>> You could then evaluate the below expressions -- watch the Transcript to see which methods are being analysed. >>>> >>>> TiSystem current reset. >>>> string := '3 + 4'. >>>> Compiler new analyze: string in: nil to: nil notifying: nil ifFail: [1]. >>>> "=> return {<SmallInteger>} " >>>> >>>> TiSystem current reset. >>>> string := 'Display boundingBox'. >>>> Compiler new analyze: string in: nil to: nil notifying: nil ifFail: [1]. >>>> "=> return {<Rectangle origin: <Point x: <SmallInteger> y: <SmallInteger>> corner: <Point x: <SmallInteger> y: <SmallInteger>>>}" >>>> >>>> TiSystem current explore. >>>> >>>> Analysing 'Display boundingBox' shows a couple of surprises: >>>> â¢ The code never goes through the #new method (it creates objects using #basicNew and #@) >>>> â¢ Object code goes through Object>>value but knowing that the implementation just answers self, it could be easily optimised. >>>> >>>> I will try to package it more nicely under Monticello -- there are still a few rough edges that need to be polished before getting it to the same state it was in 2001... >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Francisco >>>> <Ti-Engine.2.cs><Ti-Support.2.cs> >>> >>> -- >>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > >

March 31, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] direct object manipulation

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Mar 30, 2012, at 9:50 PM, phil(a)highoctane.be wrote: > This is a chicken and egg problem. > And a popularity contest game as well. > > Without one click, you'll piss people off fast and they'll go look elsewhere. Then you loose traction and that's bad. > > If I didn't had one click, I wouldn't have been learning as fast as I've been. I agree with you. > Now I do have all pieces from different locations (even wanting to build the VM on my own). > > For contrast, look at another community I am part of: Tiki Wiki CMS Groupware. The system is topping SourceForge number of downloads, committers, and is a general success for intranets in companies. > > Of course, the paradigm isn't pure at all, but easy enough to have a lot of people contributing good stuff. > > We are at version 9 and I don't know any other package that is as feature rich when it comes to the web. > We are talking more than a million lines of code here. > Now, we are moving further than one click: hosting providers provide a full VM with everything installed for the stack. > > As of software developers, I do view 4 categories: > > - constructivists using established abstractions and not requiring further exposure to inner workings of the system. They deliver business value for common problems. > - bridges understanding how the system works inside and are able to convey usage patterns to the constructivists. They also feed back real world usage problems to the next kind so that the system stays useful and not pie in the skyish. > - abstractionists: able to come up with a powerful set of abstractions to solve a given problem in a general manner. Framework makers are here > - technology makers: create core tech. Like a Cog-VM thing, CUDA, .. > > Try to pair types by jumping one strata and you are asking for trouble. > > Except for rare seasoned developers that are master of their craft and are able to display behavioral flexibility. > But these are a rare breed and you won't get them for a long time anyway as these are seekers. I want a good installer for each platform :) And I want to let a chance to people to decide when they have to deal with low level. Pushing shit on their faces as a welcome message is not what we want. Now alex shipping cairo lib may be not be the best to do. It tooks some time to compile on my machine and it means some work to build the right libr for each sub platforms: 32, 64â¦.. Now you can also use VW. :) For me this is simply no way. ;) Stef

March 31, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] direct object manipulation

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

>> > > Let's not turn developers into a housewives. You are developer, you > should know how software works, > and you should know how to download, install , upgrade and run it. > And if you don't, then learn, otherwise it is your fault or you just > picked wrong profession for your career. :) Igor this is not really true because a good installer would be good. And do not underestimate newcomers experience. I want it to be excellent. Now alex squeak shipped old libraries that were banned on certain linux distribution so binding everything is not the panacea. >> I think it depends on what do you want to do in the mid-long term: throwing away the squeak bitmap rendering and using Cairo for real? What should be the external library, the squeak bitmap rendering or Cairo? >> > > I don't understand your question. > Cairo is one of the backends for Athens. And it quite possible happen, > won't be the best one. > If you don't want to install cairo library, you can try Athens without > cairo installed. > Then you should use AthensBalloonSurface instead of AthensCairoSurface. > >> Alexandre >> >> -- >> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >> > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. >

March 31, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Voice reader support for Pharo

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

in 2005 we bound together MBrola and tagger brill (see the doc I sent you) because klatt does not work for french. Now we did not tried since. But we are interested in supporting you in your attempt. So let us know us any problems you may get. Stef On Mar 30, 2012, at 3:33 PM, Goubier Thierry wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm one of the newcomers registering recently on the mailing list. I'm trying to see if a colleague of mine, blind, could use Pharo and for that it would be necessary to be able to read aloud the contents of the Pharo morphs to a screen reader such as Orca (and a brltty output). Has anybody worked on that ? > > Thierry > -- > Thierry Goubier > CEA list > Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s > 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex > France > Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95 >

March 31, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Emergency evaluator pops up on red tests

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Igor could you have a look because it looks to me that this is a bug in the primitiveError: method or friend. This is also strange since the ignoredNames method is a class method so PPTrimmingParser>>ignoredNames looks wrong to me. openDebuggerOn: process context: context label: title contents: contentsStringOrNil fullView: bool "Open a notifier in response to an error, halt, or notify. A notifier view just shows a short view of the sender stack and provides a menu that lets the user open a full debugger." | errorWasInUIProcess | errorWasInUIProcess := self spawnNewProcessIfThisIsUI: process. [Smalltalk tools debugger logDebuggerStackToFile ifTrue: [Smalltalk logError: title inContext: context ]] on: Error do: []. WorldState addDeferredUIMessage: [[| debugger | debugger := Smalltalk tools debugger new process: process controller: nil context: context. "schedule debugger in deferred UI message to address redraw problems after opening a debugger e.g. from the testrunner." "WorldState addDeferredUIMessage: [" bool ifTrue: [debugger openFullNoSuspendLabel: title] ifFalse: [debugger openNotifierContents: contentsStringOrNil label: title]. debugger errorWasInUIProcess: errorWasInUIProcess.] on: Error do: [:ex | Debugger primitiveError: 'Orginal error: ' , title asString , '. Smalltalk tools debugger error: ' , ([ex description] on: Error do: ['a ' , ex class printString]) , ':']]. process suspend. Stef > Now when try to execute > > CoreGammar>>testAbstract I get an emergency evaluator > > PPTrimmingParser>>ignoredNames > > Smalltalk tools debugger error > > I will try to investigate more > > Stef > > > On Mar 30, 2012, at 9:53 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > >> Hi fabrizio >> >> when I run PPPHPCoreGrammarTests I got 488 run and 448 errors but no emergency evaluator. >> I used the image you mentioned and the VM probably from the Moose-1.app >> >> I could also run all the tests. >> >> >> Stef >> >> >> >> On Mar 30, 2012, at 9:49 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >> >>> ok I'm trying now >>> >>> :) >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 30, 2012, at 6:55 PM, Fabrizio Perin wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Stef, >>>> I just tried to evaluate in a workspace as you said and i've got the same result. Also by executing the test in Nautilus with cmd-t i've got the same. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> fabrizio >>>> >>>> On Mar 30, 2012 3:30 PM, "StÃ©phane Ducasse" <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >>>> did you try to run on single test manually >>>> >>>> Test debug:#l';l;k;lk;l2 >>>> >>>> Stef >>>> >>>> On Mar 30, 2012, at 1:28 PM, Fabrizio Perin wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> I loaded all my stuff in the latest moose based on 1.4. >>>>> All the tests of my PetitPHPParser are red. When I click on one red method the emergency evaluator pops up. >>>>> >>>>> To reproduce it: >>>>> 1- grab the latest MooseJee from the ci: >>>>> http://ci.moosetechnology.org/job/moose-latest-dev/ >>>>> >>>>> 2- load the petit php parser: >>>>> Gofer new >>>>> squeaksource: 'PetitPHPParser'; >>>>> package: 'ConfigurationOfPetitPHPParser'; >>>>> load. >>>>> (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfPetitPHPParser) perform: #loadDefault. >>>>> >>>>> 3- Run the tests of the php parser and click on any red method. >>>>> >>>>> How can I debug the problem? Any suggestions on how to proceed? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Fabrizio >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > >

March 31, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [Pharo 1.4] Please test!

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

+1 On Mar 30, 2012, at 4:32 PM, Marcus Denker wrote: > > On Mar 30, 2012, at 4:09 PM, Scott Gibson wrote: > >> I am not sure of the plans for syntax highlighting in version 1.4 but when I go to Settings for Shout: Syntax Highlighting I am not given any controls to adjust the values. When I change try to make the changes programmatically (as in 1.3) I am given the error AnObsoleteSHStyleSetting. Is this functionality being removed or has it been replaced perhaps? > > > this looks like a bug to me... setting it programmatically should work. > > -- > Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de > >

March 31, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [Pharo 1.4] Please test!

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Mar 30, 2012, at 9:01 PM, Ricardo Moran wrote: > Hi, I just tried the one-click in windows and it doesn't open the pharo-1.4.image by default, which is inconvenient since a newcomer wouldn't know where to look for. I also see a .bat file that does the right thing, but that's now what windows users usually do. > So I think the CogVM.exe should be renamed to Pharo.exe and the .ini file should point to the image location, as in the 1.3 one click. agreed > > Cheers, > Richo > > > On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 4:26 AM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > > You can download the lastest 1.4 here for testing: > > https://ci.lille.inria.fr/pharo/view/Pharo%201.4/job/Pharo%201.4/lastSucces… > > And a first version of the one-click here: > > https://ci.lille.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo%20One%20Click%20image/lastSuccess… > > > > > -- > Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de > > >

March 31, 2012